Just curious about western holsters in the old days

[chrisash]

Just wondered how much change there was between the 1800's western holsters for the Mr Average and the holsters of the film industry

For instance there is a big difference between the latter John Wayne holsters and the average cowboy holsters seen in the films and probably safe to assume the 1800's were far cheaper and more basic designs

Also never understood that for the slightly longer time to draw a pistol for the average guy, they did not copy the covered in cavalry holsters that protected the gun far better , and if ok for calvary who probably saw more action, then why not mr average

It would appear that gunfights portrayed in films were a very rare occurrence, with few noted in history so micro second speed would really be called upon

[MikeRock]

Chris,  $45 or maybe an interlibrary loan will get you this.  Great book.  I asked about a movie holster and folks here led me to this book, among others.  It has the information you need.

 

Packing Iron: Gunleather of the Frontier West

 

by

Richard C. Rattenbury

Western gunleather is an icon of American frontier lore. Packing Iron celebrates the artistry and innovation of the craftsmen who designed the gun rigs of the old time cowboys, troopers, lawmen, and Hollywood heroes. This unique art form is fully described and richly illuatrated with more than 300 exciting color photographs and nearly 100 rare historic images. In the pages of Packing Iron you will discover gunleather produced by historic government arsenals, along with the famed frontier craftsmen like Collins, Meanea, Gallatin, and Heiser.

[Matt S]

Chris, you are quite right that the holsters you seen in typical mid-20th century Westerns were quite different from what was seen in the Western states from say 1850-1900. Partly it's a matter of what looks cool in a film, and partly the change in what people were doing with holsters in the 1950s (advent of steel-lined, low-slung holsters for quick-draw competitions, for instance). There were a lot more revolvers carried cross-draw back in the day than you'll see in 1950s westerns too -- if you want to know why, try drawing a pistol from a seated position!

Will Ghormley is an excellent maker of period correct Western gear and has for many years created the actual rigs you see in the more modern, realistic (in terms of kit) films. His website, while appearing to date from not long after 1900, gives a lot of interesting detail. For instance I understand that the earlier revolver holsters (commonly called "slim jims" since they're pretty skinny looking) were felt lined. This was to protect the earlier, more delicate revolvers like the Colt Navy on the long early cattle drives (which got shorter and shorter as the railroad heads got closer to Texas).

[chuck123wapati]

What isn't mentioned a lot and something I find interesting was that the civil war soldiers carried their pistol in a crossdraw covered holster made for left handed use, so they could use their sword in the right hand while the pistol was used in the left hand. The sabre was carried on he left and the pistol on the right.  I think there were probably as many self made holsters or stuck in pants as there were bought holsters back in the day due mainly because of cost, the Mr. average guy back then didn't have a lot of extra money but they did have time and i'm sure many pistols for the average came from their life in the war as a battlefield pickup same with the holsters I imagine a lot were war relics with the flaps cut off and doctored up the way the owner felt. From what I have read most folks if they were average bought a shotgun as their first affordable weapon as it had much more use for the family. We all see the good holsters suitable for books and handing down but I think we rarely see actual working rigs that wore out or were so poorly made they were tossed away when newer could be bought.  Old junky holsters and self made holsters don't sell books or movies except for lil Mattie who kept her hog leg in a flour sack lol.

[fredk]

A couple of books to look out for are the reprints of Sears Roebuck catalogues of the late 19th C. They have sections dealing with firearms, hardware, holsters, ammunition, holsters etc all with prices.

The above book is worth its price, but not readily available in the UK. I bought mine off someone on here and it ended up costing me about £120 - customs and VAT got their share!

 

[chrisash]

Afraid the interest does not reach to spending money. just watch this forum and see all the western rigs and wonder about the actual history, I think chuck's reply is the most likely with people buying shotguns and rifles as the most popular and useful tools, with a pistol coming well down the list of needs, The pistol would seem most likely high for the actual cowboy herding beef but of little use for the homesteader/ farmers

[dikman]

Holsters in the Old West were intended primarily as a means to carry a revolver and give it some protection from the elements. That is why you'll see the revolvers "buried" in the holster, often with not much more than the handle protruding. Towards the end of the 19th. century they seemed to change slightly, becoming a bit more open. The "Hollywood fast draw gunfights" didn't seem to happen much in real life back then.

[fredk]

1. a lot of men going west after 1865 carried their arms from the War between the States, aka the Civil War. These were mostly flintlock rifles and basic revolvers of ball & powder loading. If they had holsters for the pistols during the war they kept them.

2. In the early movies very many of the 'cow boys' were actual working drovers and used their own equipment, bought during the 1890s and later 1880s. The main makers of the leatherwork for the early movies were the same people supplying those drovers in the 1880s - 1890s. They continued to make for the films and embelleshed their work for the 'stars'. There is a direct lineage to the leatherwork.

3. Contrary to the movies, a ball & powder pistol is not accurate. You can hit a barndoor at 30 paces. You need to be only about 10 feet from a man to hit him. A rifle is of more use. On cattle drives drovers carried rifles and the chuck wagon carried the pistols in case of need, as well as extra rifles and ammunition

4. Each region had variations of holster work which could identify where the wearer was from or where he bought it.

5. Wearing pistols with butts forward is not necessarily 'cross-draw' but it could be what was called 'the troopers twist'. J.B. Hickok wore two 1860s butt forward but drew by 'troopers twist' . If you have a pistol handy, try it. Butt forward. Use your hand on the side you wear the pistol. turn your hand palm outwards, grip the pistol, draw and turn it as it passes your belly, to present and fire.  I've timed it and drawing one or two pistols this way is actually faster than 'cross-drawing'

 

[Samalan]

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

Afraid the interest does not reach to spending money. just watch this forum and see all the western rigs and wonder about the actual history, I think chuck's reply is the most likely with people buying shotguns and rifles as the most popular and useful tools, with a pistol coming well down the list of needs, The pistol would seem most likely high for the actual cowboy herding beef but of little use for the homesteader/ farmers

That sounds right we had  a big old china cabinet dad made into a gun cabinet it was around 8' long sat  in the dining room no door locks no gun locks one bay just for ammo one for rifles and one for shotguns as far as firearms go rifles 308,3855,3006,270,338,8mm,22, Shotguns  4- 12ga , 2 -  16ga  tons of ammo ,    Hand guns 1 -mod 29S&W 1-1911 colt and one DWM 30 Luger  the luger was Mom's and just one more no one knew about 50 years ago kids plad army i had no toy guns my brother made me one from a 2X4 with a copper pipe in the end for a barrel it was ok but not good enough  an old lady that lived out behind our house she liked me and the bottle one day she said whats wrong i told her i needed a rifle to play army after some thought she said i can help i'll give you the rifle pat used in the war never used it to play army i put it away for safe keeping knowing if my brothers or parents ever saw it it would be gone anyone who has four brothers knows just what im saying sorry guys went on way to long by the way we had nine kids in that little house Mother cooked the best game food in the world and lots of it!

[chuck123wapati]

15 hours ago, fredk said:

1. a lot of men going west after 1865 carried their arms from the War between the States, aka the Civil War. These were mostly flintlock rifles and basic revolvers of ball & powder loading. If they had holsters for the pistols during the war they kept them.

2. In the early movies very many of the 'cow boys' were actual working drovers and used their own equipment, bought during the 1890s and later 1880s. The main makers of the leatherwork for the early movies were the same people supplying those drovers in the 1880s - 1890s. They continued to make for the films and embelleshed their work for the 'stars'. There is a direct lineage to the leatherwork.

3. Contrary to the movies, a ball & powder pistol is not accurate. You can hit a barndoor at 30 paces. You need to be only about 10 feet from a man to hit him. A rifle is of more use. On cattle drives drovers carried rifles and the chuck wagon carried the pistols in case of need, as well as extra rifles and ammunition

4. Each region had variations of holster work which could identify where the wearer was from or where he bought it.

5. Wearing pistols with butts forward is not necessarily 'cross-draw' but it could be what was called 'the troopers twist'. J.B. Hickok wore two 1860s butt forward but drew by 'troopers twist' . If you have a pistol handy, try it. Butt forward. Use your hand on the side you wear the pistol. turn your hand palm outwards, grip the pistol, draw and turn it as it passes your belly, to present and fire.  I've timed it and drawing one or two pistols this way is actually faster than 'cross-drawing'

 

I agree with everything except number 3. Don't give me a chance at 30 yards they are as accurate as any average modern handgun, you just cant load them as fast lol. In fact the sights were built at 100 yards on the early Colts and had a optional Butt stock. The trooper twist came about due to the fact that the gun was carried on the right backwards to allow use of the sabre with  the right hand which was carried on the left. People like Hickok weren't the average joe and most folks in the wild west didn't wear pistols all that much simply because they didn't want to get shot or shoot themselves by accident there were few doctors and no hospitals. The bad guys or hooligans, youngsters, etc, were just like todays dumbasses and were buried pretty early in life if they didn't respect their personal safety. 

[chuck123wapati]

Here ya go folks this is my great granddaddy Isaac Montgomery he homesteaded here in Wyoming from Ireland back when the state wasn't even a state lol. What is important to know is this is a staged picture and very common of the time those guns and the costume as well probably weren't his as was also common in the day. You can see the bullets in the belt don't match the weapons. Back then photographers would go to community gathering, barn dances and such and set up their props, they would bring costumes as well as firearms for the people to wear and take their pictures with. I am lucky enough to have found other peoples pictures with the same set at the museum  where he lived, it was taken around the turn of the century, 1900,. He was every bit the true west cowboy he started out by moving a herd of cattle from Illinois to California, yes not all cattle were herded from Texas then some how found Slater WY on his way back. lol.  and raised Percheron Horses as well as cattle, and carried mail to and from Slater Wy. to Hanns peak colo. By horse or snowshoes  depending on the weather, about 30 miles. His ranch still exists today in fact, He didn't wear a pistol and he didn't dress like that in real everyday life. As well if you ever peruse old photos in museums you will see most folks didn't carry and women back then didn't wear dresses that show their boobs, all that is tv! 

I will add those are real weapons and clothing of the day as well as indian items and I'm sure my granddaddy wore clothing similar to work or carry the mail but not on a daily basis the gloves and chaps for instance were winter gear. I guess my point is we really cant judge how people acted or what life was really like just by looking at a few pictures especially in books or articles as they cherry pick what will sell the book and it may not be correct as this photo shows a stereo typical idea but not really who the man was. Don't you wish you could make out the tooling on those chaps lol.

Edited January 5, 2020 by chuck123wapati
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[Frodo]

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[480volt]

19 hours ago, fredk said:

1. a lot of men going west after 1865 carried their arms from the War between the States, aka the Civil War. These were mostly flintlock rifles and basic revolvers of ball & powder loading.

I am certainly no expert on Civil War weapons, but the vast majority of long guns used by both sides were rifled, muzzle-loading and fired by percussion cap. There were also rifles and carbines by Spencer and Henry that fired brass (or copper) cased cartridges from a magazine. Given the nature of the conflict, soldiers frequently brought their own weapons, so it is conceivable that some brought great-grandpa’s flintlock to duty, but these were weapons of that “other “ civil war we fought in the late 1770s.

[dikman]

I agree with Chuck, cap and ball revolvers can be very accurate, the limiting factor usually being the user. Hickok used .36 cal Colt Navy pistols and was considered deadly with them.

[Samalan]

8 hours ago, Frodo said:

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This message is for...............see the news

 

BEEN THERE  DONE DAT !!!!!!!!!

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[TexasJack]

Rifles had moved from flintlock to caps by the Texas Revolution.  (The Mexicans were still using surplus British flintlocks at the time).

Civil War revolvers were quite accurate - in fact no different than modern pistols.

Will Ghormley was mentioned.  If you haven't seen his stuff before, look up his web site or his postings on Leatherworker.  He's done a lot of holsters for Hollywood and has posted a lot of helpful stuff for us amateurs.

Hollywood uses stuff that looks cool, but frequently doesn't match equipment to the right era.  For example, there's a movie, Man from the Alamo, where everyone is shooting Colt SAAs (from 1872+) in a fight that took place in 1836.  It would be like seeing jet fighters in WW1.

[Lobo]

Interesting resources on this subject include the mail order catalogs of the 1880's and 1890's (Sears Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, Abercrombie & Fitch, and others). All types of the commonly available revolvers and holsters were offered and displayed in the catalogs.

While those living in or near the larger communities may have had access to saddlery and harness shops offering belts and holsters, most of the folks residing in the more rural and isolated areas relied on catalog orders for many things. Clothing, shoes, household goods, veterinary supplies, stoves for heating and cooking, firearms, ammunition, just about anything imaginable (Sears even offered houses, all the pieces cut and ready to assemble with windows, doors, and everything else required, delivered in crates by train to the nearest depot). Some of these retailers also operated catalog order and delivery offices in many communities, allowing local people to place and receive orders conveniently.

For those interested in offering period-correct holster designs I would suggest a Google search for the old mail order catalogs of the latter 19th and early 20th Centuries. Some are reproduced in pdf-format and individual pages can be run off with your computer and printer. One thing I am sure of is that you will not see anything like the gear portrayed in western movies and TV shows of the 1940's through 1970's.

[malabar]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:18 PM, fredk said:

1. a lot of men going west after 1865 carried their arms from the War between the States, aka the Civil War. These were mostly flintlock rifles and basic revolvers of ball & powder loading. If they had holsters for the pistols during the war they kept them.

2. In the early movies very many of the 'cow boys' were actual working drovers and used their own equipment, bought during the 1890s and later 1880s. The main makers of the leatherwork for the early movies were the same people supplying those drovers in the 1880s - 1890s. They continued to make for the films and embelleshed their work for the 'stars'. There is a direct lineage to the leatherwork.

3. Contrary to the movies, a ball & powder pistol is not accurate. You can hit a barndoor at 30 paces. You need to be only about 10 feet from a man to hit him. A rifle is of more use. On cattle drives drovers carried rifles and the chuck wagon carried the pistols in case of need, as well as extra rifles and ammunition

4. Each region had variations of holster work which could identify where the wearer was from or where he bought it.

5. Wearing pistols with butts forward is not necessarily 'cross-draw' but it could be what was called 'the troopers twist'. J.B. Hickok wore two 1860s butt forward but drew by 'troopers twist' . If you have a pistol handy, try it. Butt forward. Use your hand on the side you wear the pistol. turn your hand palm outwards, grip the pistol, draw and turn it as it passes your belly, to present and fire.  I've timed it and drawing one or two pistols this way is actually faster than 'cross-drawing'

 

"These were mostly flintlock rifles..."

You mean percussion rifles, not flintlocks. 

"...a ball & powder pistol is not accurate." 

Cap and ball pistols are actually quite accurate. The rifles, of course, are more accurate, because the pistols were firing round balls while the rifles were firing conical bullets.  But at handgun ranges (50 feet or less) they were accurate enough and quite lethal. 

tk

Edited April 10, 2020 by malabar

[1961Mike]

On 1/4/2020 at 3:58 AM, chrisash said:

Just wondered how much change there was between the 1800's western holsters for the Mr Average and the holsters of the film industry

For instance there is a big difference between the latter John Wayne holsters and the average cowboy holsters seen in the films and probably safe to assume the 1800's were far cheaper and more basic designs

Also never understood that for the slightly longer time to draw a pistol for the average guy, they did not copy the covered in cavalry holsters that protected the gun far better , and if ok for calvary who probably saw more action, then why not mr average

It would appear that gunfights portrayed in films were a very rare occurrence, with few noted in history so micro second speed would really be called upon

Hi, the cavalry holsters had the flap to keep the cylinder and percussion caps covered.  Brass cartridges weren't common in the Civil War, and most handguns were still percussion.  To state that gunflights portrayed in films were very rare is an understatement.  Most shooters seemed to have the gun out and pointed your way when they asked for your money, or to surrender. 

Hope this helps.

[Professor]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:18 PM, fredk said:

3. Contrary to the movies, a ball & powder pistol is not accurate. You can hit a barndoor at 30 paces. You need to be only about 10 feet from a man to hit him. A rifle is of more use. On cattle drives drovers carried rifles and the chuck wagon carried the pistols in case of need, as well as extra rifles and ammunition

The secret to superior accuracy with a C&B revolver is care in loading.

If a cast round ball is used insert the ball with the sprue mark up. That way the ball doesn't spin off balance when fired.

A carefully loaded round ball will usually be more accurate than a conical ball. I have no problem keeping all my rounds of .36 in the space of a playing card at 50 feet.

I did have to widen the rear notch of the hammer to one side to zero it and file the front bead down a bit for proper elevation.

These guns shoot best with a full charge of powder. Light loads will result in the ball being seated too deep in the chamber.

Many pre cap and ball muskets were converted to cap locks before and during the Civil War.

Since there were more arms than men to carry them after the war the Government sold off the surplus guns dirt cheap.

Soldiers when mustered out could purchase the musket they had been issued along with paper cartridge boxes, cap pouches , etc.

Lever action Henry rifles were usually private purchased and kept by those who had carried them. At least one Calvary company were armed with the Henry to great effect. It many have been Custer's Civil War outfit. The later 7th Calvary carried the Spencer carbine but these were replaced by the trapdoor Springfield just before the Little Bighorn fight.

[Davm]

I think the first Western holsters were the Slim Jim styles used with cap & ball revolvers.  Once cartridge guns came along the Double loop took over in popularity.   I'm going to throw out some thoughts.

1. The double loop was a really good design.  The skirt in back stiffened up the entire holster so that a single thick piece of leather could be used.  Many of the earlier Slim Jim styles had a lining, often of a different color such as yellow or red.  I use suede when I make that type but suede is actually wrong- the photos indicate a very thin but smooth type leather.  The basket weave of the day for many of these Slim Jim's was a "fishscale" and the Tandy mule foot stamp is sort of similar.  I think Wild Bill had patent leather holsters.  These holsters were worn high on the belt.  The belts on cartridge rigs had a lot of bullet loops- often the entire length and the buckle was often slid around and located under the holster so all the bullets were accessible.  On the double loop- most had very little tooling- maybe a repetitive stamp along the edge.  NOT all the handguns were peacemakers.  The townsfolk and tradesmen often carried a smaller Smith & Wesson 32 rimfire and the bullet loops etc. were for that size.

2. On the percussion guns, Wild Bill wrote that he would load up at the beginning of the day with a flask and used round balls but once outside, most carried combustible cartridges as fast loading, back up ammo. As stated the conical balls weren't as accurate and could get knocked out of alignment when being seated.

3 The Buscadero Rig- as much as I can figure- is a Hollywood thing or at least started around 1900. Butch Cassidy might have still been robbing trains but most of the "wild West" was fast disappearing.

4. The crossdraw- I always figured that was used on long barrel guns to make it easier to draw out of the holster.

 

[Professor]

4 hours ago, Davm said:

3 The Buscadero Rig- as much as I can figure- is a Hollywood thing or at least started around 1900. Butch Cassidy might have still been robbing trains but most of the "wild West" was fast disappearing.

I've seen an 1880's type partly canvas ammunition belt, possibly an army issue item, for the 45-70 cartridge that had a drop loop added to it for a holster. The holster was missing. No telling when the loop was added on.

 

4 hours ago, Davm said:

2. On the percussion guns, Wild Bill wrote that he would load up at the beginning of the day with a flask and used round balls but once outside, most carried combustible cartridges as fast loading, back up ammo. As stated the conical balls weren't as accurate and could get knocked out of alignment when being seated.

Wild Bill was known to fire off five rounds from each pistol at the end of the day in target practice, saving one loaded chamber in each revolver. He then cleaned the five empty chambers and reloaded.

The Colt 1851 Navy could be carried safely with six rounds loaded because there is a slot on the bottom of the hammer face that engages a pin between the nipples to keep the hammer from contacting the cap and the cylinder resting out of battery.

Most reproduction Colt C&B revolvers lack these pins though most have the slotted hammer face. I've made and installed these pins on a number of these replicas.

Extra cylinders could be ordered from the factory and carried pre-loaded for quick reloading.

[MikeRock]

Towns folk and horsemen in general carried a 'horse pistol' to kill an injured animal.  My grandpa carried either a H&R .32 or a S&W .38.  Dad remembered him killing one horse that was injured in an accident with a trolley, took the harness off and left the horse to lay for the trolley line to clean up.  That would be 1923'ish.  He kept his hoof pick, farriers knife (like an American made Swiss Army knife..a load of different tools in one) and pistol in a pouch.  I inherited them all.

God bless

[Wykoni]

On 1/5/2020 at 8:56 AM, chuck123wapati said:

I agree with everything except number 3. Don't give me a chance at 30 yards they are as accurate as any average modern handgun, you just cant load them as fast lol. In fact the sights were built at 100 yards on the early Colts and had a optional Butt stock. The trooper twist came about due to the fact that the gun was carried on the right backwards to allow use of the sabre with  the right hand which was carried on the left. People like Hickok weren't the average joe and most folks in the wild west didn't wear pistols all that much simply because they didn't want to get shot or shoot themselves by accident there were few doctors and no hospitals. The bad guys or hooligans, youngsters, etc, were just like todays dumbasses and were buried pretty early in life if they didn't respect their personal safety. 

I totally agree with you on accuracy,  not sure where the inaccuracy came from.  As to why the average guy didn’t carry, pistols were much more the expense.  As is today, you can buy a pretty good rifle or shotgun for less then most good quality pistols.  Further, rifles were more accurate, easier to shoot And great for bushwhacking.   There were very very few gunfights at noon.  Dr. Holiday carried a shotgun to the ok corral.  John Harding was known for using a rifle.  Pat Garret was shot with a rifle.  I think the famous picture of Billy the Kid shows him with both rifles and handguns.  I think the idea about inaccuracy came from the distance they shot at but most hunters understand the basic concept of why shoot at an animal at 100 yards if you can get within 50 yards or better yet 25.  Just good common sense.  Like today, most gun fights are 10-20 seconds with 2 to 3 shots fired at 7 feet or less.  That’s FBI stats.  Oh well interesting topic.

[chuck123wapati]

I'm reading a great book right now, The Great Plains by Walter Prescott Webb. It breaks down the use of weaponry during the years of westward migration. With the invention of the revolver being one of the primary reasons we could begin to establish ourselves on the great plains, and why the the Spanish gave up. Before 1840s, roughly,  all weapons' were single shot and most folks were advised on their weapons of choice by the people who put the wagon trains together. The Texas Rangers proved the worth of the revolver as a mounted weapon of choice that put them at even or a bit better than those they were fighting. Before that the Indians, and i mean no disrespect, had the upper hand and simply waited till the single shot was fired then rode in a filled their enemy with arrows. Its a great read for those wanting to understand the real reasons the west was won.