Stitch TPI vs threadsize

[DirtyDusty]

Is there a reference available to sort out the thread size with TPI?  I am gathering tools to start my first saddle build and can’t find any reference as to what TPI most hand stitching Is done in. I think I have seen where some recommend. .8 or 1.0mm thread for hand stitching on saddles.  Is that correct?  What size chisels or prong would you use for starting your layout, if you went the route?

[Tugadude]

4 hours ago, DirtyDusty said:

Is there a reference available to sort out the thread size with TPI?  I am gathering tools to start my first saddle build and can’t find any reference as to what TPI most hand stitching Is done in. I think I have seen where some recommend. .8 or 1.0mm thread for hand stitching on saddles.  Is that correct?  What size chisels or prong would you use for starting your layout, if you went the route?

You can find a lot of that information in Nigel Armitage's reviews on pricking irons and stitching chisels.  Fo to Armitageleather.com and look  for the reviews.  They used to be in a tab on education or something like that.  You will find the iron reviewed along with recommended thread size.  He matches up the spacing of the iron or SPI and the appropriate thread.

[Hardrada]

Here, with examples: Thread and SPI's

Also, I'd head over to Rocky Mountain Leather Supply and order their sample cards:

Tiger Thread samples

Fil au Chinois samples

These cards come with all the colours available and, most importantly, samples of the different thicknesses they're offered in.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Hardrada

[Zonker1972]

scroll about halfway down.

https://www.ianatkinson.net/leather/leatherguide.htm

zonker

[wizard of tragacanth]

6 or 7 spi with 0.8 or 1.0 mm thread works well for holsters but I don't know if that is appropriate for saddles... or not?

I would hope to get a saddle maker's thoughts on this, to be sure.

nick

[Goldshot Ron]

Dusty,

Are you building a western saddle or English style?  Do you want to be a traditionalist maker or innovative?  Traditional western saddle makers use an awl with a diamond shaped blade for making the stitching holes and waxed hand stitching thread.  Tools you will need: a stitch line groover,  an overstitch wheel  (I use a 6 spi but some use 7 or 8 spi).  The type of thread used traditionally is linen (6 cords), but I use 5 cord polyester.  If using a machine, I use 346 with 277 bobbin nylon.  Everyone does things differently, but I wouldn't recommend using chisels for sewing a saddle.  Easy stitchers (a brand name) could be used, but the thread they use is too light for a saddle (I believe it's thread is 3 cord lightly waxed).  Building a saddle is exciting, nerve racking, enjoyable, and frustrating.  Hope this helps some.  There are plenty more saddle makers here to help you along.

Ron

[DirtyDusty]

On 1/20/2020 at 4:44 PM, Goldshot Ron said:

Dusty,

Are you building a western saddle or English style?  Do you want to be a traditionalist maker or innovative?  Traditional western saddle makers use an awl with a diamond shaped blade for making the stitching holes and waxed hand stitching thread.  Tools you will need: a stitch line groover,  an overstitch wheel  (I use a 6 spi but some use 7 or 8 spi).  The type of thread used traditionally is linen (6 cords), but I use 5 cord polyester.  If using a machine, I use 346 with 277 bobbin nylon.  Everyone does things differently, but I wouldn't recommend using chisels for sewing a saddle.  Easy stitchers (a brand name) could be used, but the thread they use is too light for a saddle (I believe it's thread is 3 cord lightly waxed).  Building a saddle is exciting, nerve racking, enjoyable, and frustrating.  Hope this helps some.  There are plenty more saddle makers here to help you along.

Ron

I am looking at doing a wade western saddle, for my mule. Figure I would start a few small projects before tackling that one. 

[JLSleather]

On 1/20/2020 at 4:44 PM, Goldshot Ron said:

Tools you will need: a stitch line groover,  an overstitch wheel  (I use a 6 spi but some use 7 or 8 spi).  The type of thread used traditionally is linen (6 cords), but I use 5 cord polyester.  If using a machine, I use 346 with 277 bobbin nylon. ...I wouldn't recommend using chisels for sewing a saddle...

PHEW!  I was really hoping a saddle maker was going to get in here.  I like to at least view information I may be able to use, even if it wasn't my question, and I sure didn't want to hear SADDLE "information" from y-tubers who don't make saddles

[blue62]

On 1/20/2020 at 4:44 PM, Goldshot Ron said:

Traditional western saddle makers use an awl with a diamond shaped blade for making the stitching holes and waxed hand stitching thread.  Tools you will need: a stitch line groover,  an overstitch wheel  (I use a 6 spi but some use 7 or 8 spi).  The type of thread used traditionally is linen (6 cords), but I use 5 cord polyester.  If using a machine, I use 346 with 277 bobbin nylon.  Everyone does things differently, but I wouldn't recommend using chisels for sewing a saddle.  

This is the same as what I would recommend, but he should try the chisels so he can learn WHY they don't work well for a western saddle, as far as spi, it's whatever looks right on the saddle, big long heavy saddle, longer stiches, small petite saddle, shorter stiches, look at lots of different saddles to get a idea of what looks right.

 

And remember the Masters have the biggest garbage cans

 

[rktaylor]

I would suggest no more than 6 spi for your first effort.  However, I wouldn't go wider than 5 spi. You're taking about a lot of sewing. I can't even imagine using chisels. A cantle binding will be more than a half inch thick. I use thread similar to Goldshot.

Randy

[Goldshot Ron]

Well Dusty,

This is always said to first timers on this site, pick up Vol. 1 of Stohlman's Saddle Encyclopedia.  Read it cover to cover a couple of times.  This will give you the basics and then some.  His books only teach you how to do all leather groundseats, so his methods are somewhat dated compared to today's saddles.  Search through this forum for saddle making and you'll find almost everything you will want to know.  

There are two tree makers that I suggest for information, solid trees, price, and quick service:  Bowden Saddle Trees (Anthony, TX) and Timberline (Vernal, Utah).  There are a whole bunch more that make great trees, and the prices only go UP.  One last consideration you need to know (if you haven't thought of it) is rigging type and placement.  Stohlman doesn't quite cover that, but I have photos of mule rigging that I have installed that might give you ideas.  Old Toot on this site will be around to help also (a lot of knowledge there).  Randy above is a saddle maker who participates in saddle making contests; he'll help too.

Well, good luck and keep in touch.

[DirtyDusty]

4 hours ago, Goldshot Ron said:

Well Dusty,

This is always said to first timers on this site, pick up Vol. 1 of Stohlman's Saddle Encyclopedia.  Read it cover to cover a couple of times.  This will give you the basics and then some.  His books only teach you how to do all leather groundseats, so his methods are somewhat dated compared to today's saddles.  Search through this forum for saddle making and you'll find almost everything you will want to know.  

There are two tree makers that I suggest for information, solid trees, price, and quick service:  Bowden Saddle Trees (Anthony, TX) and Timberline (Vernal, Utah).  There are a whole bunch more that make great trees, and the prices only go UP.  One last consideration you need to know (if you haven't thought of it) is rigging type and placement.  Stohlman doesn't quite cover that, but I have photos of mule rigging that I have installed that might give you ideas.  Old Toot on this site will be around to help also (a lot of knowledge there).  Randy above is a saddle maker who participates in saddle making contests; he'll help too.

Well, good luck and keep in touch.

Thanks, I ordered a template kit from Bowden along with the Dusty Johnson saddle making set. I started to pick up the Stohlman book at Tandy the other day. I am definitely interested in the rigging for a mule saddle. I saw several custom jobs, online, that had it set at 3/4. Also saw several that use the double d-ring up front. Any advice on that?

[steven1]

Disclaimer, I have not made a "mule" saddle but I'm guessing many principles still apply.  Saddle rigging placement has a lot to do with the conformation of the mule.  The steeper the shoulder angle the further back you can have your rigging.  The further back you move the rigging the more forward the saddle will ride.  The main thing is not to get your saddle interfering with the shoulder movement of the mule.  Mules tend to have a little steeper shoulder so a flat plate rigged saddle at 3/4 might be just right for your mules.  The double ring rigging plates may offer you some flexibility in your rigging.  I have not used them personally.    I think you are referring to something like the attached photo with the "double d-ring up front".    

[rktaylor]

Dusty,

I can't help on the rigging question, but I recommend you expand your educational materials. I started off with Dusty Johnson's book , patterns and video and found myself staring into space and scratching my head a lot. I didn't have the knowledge to 'fill in that blanks' like I needed. I expanded my library to include Jeremiah Watt's DVD, the Stohlman series (which you can now get in a single book), Harry Adams handbook, and John Hopper's book. Harry Adams book is my top 'go to' resource. Please post anything you learn specific to rigging for a mule saddle. I am interested in the topic.

Randy

[Goldshot Ron]

Dusty,

I suggest you to change your title for this discussion, or start a new one that would have the title like "Building my First Mule Saddle".  I think you would receive more advice, and easier for some of us (old farts) to follow.

Ron

[DirtyDusty]

On 2/6/2020 at 6:27 PM, Goldshot Ron said:

Dusty,

I suggest you to change your title for this discussion, or start a new one that would have the title like "Building my First Mule Saddle".  I think you would receive more advice, and easier for some of us (old farts) to follow.

Ron

Thanks