Handstitch vs Machine for artisan pieces

[Warhauk]

I'm new to the entire concept of leatherworking and am looking into buying the basic equipment I need to get started. I intend for it to be a hobby to start with but hopefully one that can either pay for itself or preferrably net me a profit. While I haven't gotten my feet wet quite yet to know what aspects I do and don't like, I think I would be interested in doing more artisan style work with a lot of hand carving and detail work.

I also understand that learning the basics is important and fully intend to become proficient at hand stitching but it seems very time consuming and potentially tedious. So my real question would be the pros and cons of machine sewing vs hand stitching when it comes to artisan stuff (and also for quicker tasks) for quality and profit.

For example, I would imagine that for a relatively simple wallet that doesn't take too long to make, machine sewing might be perfectly acceptable, even if i would have to sell it for less, but that balance seems like it would be easy to determine.

But if i spent a long time on a nicely detailed piece(not sure what type of piece yet), would using a machine just tank the quality of the piece to the extent it isnt even worth saving the time? Or maybe it would just balance toward the sewing took less time and is also not hand done, so the value of the piece drops proportional to the time saved?

Maybe I am oversimplifying the situation because I am sure there are other factors involved, but it was just a question that started nagging at me a bit.

[YinTx]

I hand stitch.  Very little machine stitched.  I hand tool leather, nothing press/embossed.

Can't say that I've ever had enough folks pay enough $$ to make those two endeavors profitable.

I think it was maybe Maker's Leather that did a survey and overwhelmingly customers were not willing to pay extra for hand stitching.  So he bought machines and never looked back.

If you are good enough with the machine, you can get a very high quality stitch, that some will have difficulty differentiating from hand.  Most customers don't know any different, and luxury house brands machine stitch with horrible quality and get away with it.  Things to ponder.

YinTx

[AzShooter]

YINTX is right, hand stitching looks better than most machine stitching but the most important thing is will you get a return on your investment of  a sewing machine.  

I just make a few pieces for sale and have had a lot of luck telling people it's hand stitched.  They seem to think its worth more because I take the extra time and effort.

But if you are doing volume, a machine is probably the way to go.  Again, some people will like the fact that you used a machine and think the stitching is superior.

Catch 22.

[Handstitched]

50/50 . For me I think it depends on the individual project. There are some projects where handstitching is best suited for appearance , functionality & authenticity , but  as for volume items,  as 'AZShooter'  said, this is where the machine is good. But you can still achieve an attractive   well made item with machine stitching as well.  If time is in short supply, once again, a machine is good, also good for just punching out the holes ready for hand stitching......sshh.... .but we never do that...do we??....mmmnah !!  

HS

[Spyros]

49 minutes ago, Handstitched said:

 If time is in short supply, once again, a machine is good, also good for just punching out the holes ready for hand stitching......sshh.... .but we never do that...do we??....mmmnah !!  

HS

Thats brutal 

good onya

[chrisash]

Don't overthink things, as you say it's a hobby at present so spend a year or so learning the skills needed to make nice objects, if you can saddle stitch with good results then consider a sewing machine if that's what's needed, 99.9% of the population will never be able to tell the difference between machine and hand and the few who can may well pick out the slight fault in hand stitching first.

So many seem to think they can make a living out of leather, and find that unless they come up with a fresh idea rather than Belts and wallets etc, it just does not sell or pay, you need to look at the work and attention to detail of people like Brian @RockyAussie to make money. Read Nigel Armitage's book and learn the skills and get some original idea's

[Tugadude]

No matter what method is chosen you should strive to make it as good as possible.  So that means if it is machine-stitched, strive for the best appearance and function of the stitch.  I'll give an example.  I was recently in a store that featured a number of leather goods.  They were obviously machine stitched with one side of a much thicker thread.  The end result caused the other side to look cheap and fragile.  Who wants a wallet that only looks decent from one side?

Did the maker save that much money by using thinner thread?  Or was there another reason?  I don't machine-sew, so I'm not hip to all of the potential variables.  All I know is they didn't look "up to snuff".  

The fact that I hand stitch doesn't mean I can't appreciate a well made, machine-stitched product.  And I'm sure a lot of effort goes into making the most of it.

So in the end, no matter how the thread got there it needs to look good and be durable.

[Spyros]

I think with machine stitched products you generally get what you pay for.  Mass production and various backyard operations often cut corners, on the other end you have Louis Vuitton who often machine stitch stuff but any product with the smallest imperfection doesn't even leave the factory.  And everything in between of course.

Machine stitching is definitely the way if you're aiming for a profit, but it can also be beautiful and durable if you invest time and money. 

 

[Warhauk]

Thanks for all the advice. I was honestly leaning toward machine stitching because I don't think I would get much enjoyment from my projects while doing them, just knowing I was going to hunker down after to hand stitch for hours to finish the project. My biggest concern was for the projects that already take a lot of time and work. 

Just an example with completely made up numbers (because I don't know currently know pricing or the market or how long things take)

Say I made a really nice saddle and it took me 60 hours with all the carving and detailing involved, not including any stitching. If I value my time at say $10/hr, using some formula that is supposedly a good starting point for prices, (material cost + labor cost) x4 for retail work, I would be charging roughly $2400 at that point. That is ignoring material cost. Now if I took an additional 10 hours to hand stitch it, that would put the cost about $3200.

If I machine stitched it in 1 hour, the price in theory would be $2440.

I'm sure there are a lot of other variables, but in general, would this be the case, $2440 vs $3200 or is it not actually proportional. Like would you actually be charging a lower rate for your time for the hand stitching, or maybe the machine sewing would make the saddle worth even less bc people want their high end artisan pieces to be hand sewn. 

As chrisash said, I'm probably just overthinking it, but it's those nuances that interest me sometimes.

[chrisash]

Just having to" Hunker down" unfortunately many leatherworkers end up offering a relatively small number of styles of goods apart from the tooler's, so if hand stitching puts you off before you start, imagine days spend making belts, wallets, Bags, Chaps, saddles or ?. 

Some are lucky and get requests for various new items but for many its a slog if you work on the same few items that sell well. 

Semi production where you make say 5 instead of just 1 cuts down considerably on time as it does away with all the setup time but can be boring after a while

[PastorBob]

It also depends on how much you are willing to shell out for a sewing machine.  I was pricing electric machines, used, for around $900 and up.  A really nice machine can run you several thousand.  For that kind of money ($1000), at $10 an hour for labor, would equate to 100 hours of hand sewing.  I have been hand sewing for 4 years and have not come close to 100 hours.  But I am just a hobbyist, hoping to sell some to pay for my next leather / dye / tool purchase.  I am mostly going into the hole though.  The main thing is, I enjoy developing new patterns, watching other artisans via YT or in person, and of course, creating something new, whether for myself or a friend or loved one and seeing their smiles and appreciation.

[tsunkasapa]

24 minutes ago, PastorBob said:

It also depends on how much you are willing to shell out for a sewing machine.  I was pricing electric machines, used, for around $900 and up.  A really nice machine can run you several thousand.  For that kind of money ($1000), at $10 an hour for labor, would equate to 100 hours of hand sewing.  I have been hand sewing for 4 years and have not come close to 100 hours.  But I am just a hobbyist, hoping to sell some to pay for my next leather / dye / tool purchase.  I am mostly going into the hole though.  The main thing is, I enjoy developing new patterns, watching other artisans via YT or in person, and of course, creating something new, whether for myself or a friend or loved one and seeing their smiles and appreciation.

I agree 100%. I HAVE a sewing machine, but I have never used it , other than a place to pile things. I enjoy handsewing, I think it looks better, and I think it is stronger. And as for my 'time', I'm old, retired and I don't GAF about time any more. I have many other things that are more important.

[chuck123wapati]

5 hours ago, Warhauk said:

Thanks for all the advice. I was honestly leaning toward machine stitching because I don't think I would get much enjoyment from my projects while doing them, just knowing I was going to hunker down after to hand stitch for hours to finish the project. My biggest concern was for the projects that already take a lot of time and work. 

Just an example with completely made up numbers (because I don't know currently know pricing or the market or how long things take)

Say I made a really nice saddle and it took me 60 hours with all the carving and detailing involved, not including any stitching. If I value my time at say $10/hr, using some formula that is supposedly a good starting point for prices, (material cost + labor cost) x4 for retail work, I would be charging roughly $2400 at that point. That is ignoring material cost. Now if I took an additional 10 hours to hand stitch it, that would put the cost about $3200.

If I machine stitched it in 1 hour, the price in theory would be $2440.

I'm sure there are a lot of other variables, but in general, would this be the case, $2440 vs $3200 or is it not actually proportional. Like would you actually be charging a lower rate for your time for the hand stitching, or maybe the machine sewing would make the saddle worth even less bc people want their high end artisan pieces to be hand sewn. 

As chrisash said, I'm probably just overthinking it, but it's those nuances that interest me sometimes.

Stitching is part of the process its not separate in any way. Hand stitching when learned and done correctly isn't tedious or hard to do imo but it sure was before i knew how. In fact it makes a guy feel good to see the personal improvement just as any of the processes are plus there are some things that the average machine cant sew. If you plan on being competitive with Walmart's products neither will help you. If you plan on being competitive with other crafters with sewing machines then you will need a lot of practice some are veeery fast and time learning the machine is part of it also! If you plan on being competitive with hand stitching you still have to say its machine sewn, that's an apples and oranges argument.

As with all tools there is cost in purchase, maintenance  and time learning that needs to be included in the final cost of each product so you have to add that just as you would the extra time hand stitching. 

"I'm new to the entire concept of leatherworking and am looking into buying the basic equipment I need to get started."   A leather sewing machine isn't basic equipment imo and i'm sorry to say but only friends or family would buy your first few saddles, folks who go out looking to buy them want guaranteed quality from well  known makers.

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, Spyros said:

Machine stitching is definitely the way if you're aiming for a profit, but it can also be beautiful and durable if you invest time and money.

So true. What will sell products is how well you design and make the product. Very very few will fail because of it being machine sewn. Other factors in design though can make a big difference and educating people on why your product is better than other products on offer is every bit as important as your actual skill in making the product. First thing a customer wants is something that will Last,second thing is the workmanship quality of the manufacturing and these days where  it was made, what country.

[Spyros]

27 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

So true. What will sell products is how well you design and make the product. Very very few will fail because of it being machine sewn. Other factors in design though can make a big difference and educating people on why your product is better than other products on offer is every bit as important as your actual skill in making the product. First thing a customer wants is something that will Last,second thing is the workmanship quality of the manufacturing and these days where  it was made, what country.

Absolutely.  And they want to be able to explain it to the next person who asks them about it and be able to justify the purchase to themselves first and foremost.  Made in Australia makes people feel better, knowing a bit about the person who made it makes it even easier.  At the end of the day it's all in the mind, people buy a perception more than a product.

By the way you have some awesome new stuff on your website lately

Great photography too

Edited November 4, 2021 by Spyros

[Hags]

Arthritis, cobra class 3....

[Warhauk]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:24 PM, PastorBob said:

It also depends on how much you are willing to shell out for a sewing machine.  I was pricing electric machines, used, for around $900 and up.  A really nice machine can run you several thousand.  For that kind of money ($1000), at $10 an hour for labor, would equate to 100 hours of hand sewing.  I have been hand sewing for 4 years and have not come close to 100 hours.  But I am just a hobbyist, hoping to sell some to pay for my next leather / dye / tool purchase.  I am mostly going into the hole though.  The main thing is, I enjoy developing new patterns, watching other artisans via YT or in person, and of course, creating something new, whether for myself or a friend or loved one and seeing their smiles and appreciation.

I happen to have a decent sewing machine (with that being said, it supposedly works with leather but it isnt specifically for it and im not necessarily convinced without doing the research first). My wife wanted one of the fancy ones for both sewing and embroidery a couple years back.

Thank you all for your input. Hopefully I will end up finding the hand stitching rewarding, whether that is the route I go or not. Still waiting on my stuff to come in so i can start to get a few for it.

[HandyDave]

I enjoy hand stitching and find it very rewarding. But i mostly do holsters and small bags and mostly just made to order so no production. But even with making several of the same item for  production runs. You can speed things up even with the hand stitching and tooling. By doing small things like cutting a bunch of patterns out at one time speacially if you cut them by machine like a clicker press. And if you are doing several of the same thing you find a rhythm after a few pieces and they go together alot quicker. One of few things i make several of is can coozies for flea market sales and such. There all cut by hand tooled and hand sewn. Ill cut 20 or so out at a time tool them all then sew them all. And theres not alot of stitching on a can coozie but after the first couple i can stitch one up in about 5 minutes. And since your just starting into leather like has allready been said practice your fundamentals and practice some more then worry about trying to sell.

[Spyros]

I'm actually considering a sewing machine at the moment, but there's just no way I will ever stop handstitching entirely, I enjoy too much both the process and how it looks.  It's just that for some specific things I'm struggling to justify the time, for example I made a belt for myself over the weekend and that was hours and hours of stitching along the length of the belt, and back, which is a standard job that any machine would do in seconds, and I don't know if handstitching actually added anything to the result in this instance.

One thing I'm struggling with is if you make both handstitched and machine-stitched products, how do you keep any sort of visual consistency between the two, given that machine thread is usually thinner and different type than handstitching thread.  Just one of the many technical issues I have to think about before investing any money. 

[Handstitched]

@Spyros I hear ya.

I bought my Juki  clone back in 2005 . It was around $3800 from Qld.  , but to replace it now would be around the $5000 + mark .  And although its done so much and  pretty much paid for itself now, ( and I claim depreciation when I do my tax) , I still hand stitch. I will never give that up .  There are many projects/ jobs I do that  need the handstitching .  I think I spoke about this on another thread. So I'm 50/50 when it comes to machine V's hand stitching.  At the end of the day, I'm happy with my decision to buy a heavy  duty sewing machine. 

 

A bit of trivia: I fully handstitched an item for our local  Ag Show( it was a cartridge belt) , and while it got  the ' Best in Section' blue ribbon, I'm happy to say , the judge thought it was machine stitched. Go figure ? 

HS