hide breaking with chemistry?

[HughMungis]

So I'm about to start working my first bison hide (i've done deer in the past) to turn it in to either a really big soft blanket, or something like a robe. I've done deer in the past and breaking those hides was a real chore, so I got to thinking about whether there's a way to do this chemically.

I got to reading this chemistry paper on the hide-tanning process which was really interesting but 99% of it went over my head, but it got me thinking.

There are meat tenderizers in grocery stores (bromelain powder) and even some naturally occuring enzymes that break down connective tissue a bit like pineapple juice and I'm wondering if that would help any.

My question is: Is there a non-harmful bath or enzyme that I can put on my hide that will help break it while I sleep so I don't have as much to break when I wake up?

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, HughMungis said:

So I'm about to start working my first bison hide (i've done deer in the past) to turn it in to either a really big soft blanket, or something like a robe. I've done deer in the past and breaking those hides was a real chore, so I got to thinking about whether there's a way to do this chemically.

I got to reading this chemistry paper on the hide-tanning process which was really interesting but 99% of it went over my head, but it got me thinking.

There are meat tenderizers in grocery stores (bromelain powder) and even some naturally occuring enzymes that break down connective tissue a bit like pineapple juice and I'm wondering if that would help any.

My question is: Is there a non-harmful bath or enzyme that I can put on my hide that will help break it while I sleep so I don't have as much to break when I wake up?

if there was i think it would be on shelves everywhere and on every hide tanning blog ever written. sorry no majic solution i have ever heard of turn on some good tunes open a beer and get to work i have found a lot of needless work goes into the process while the hide is still to wet for the breaking. If you do find one though let me know i have three elk hides and two deer in the salt right now.

[tsunkasapa]

If there was an easy way, everyone would be doing it. And hides/leather would be much cheaper.

[HughMungis]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:54 PM, chuck123wapati said:

if there was i think it would be on shelves everywhere and on every hide tanning blog ever written. sorry no majic solution i have ever heard of turn on some good tunes open a beer and get to work i have found a lot of needless work goes into the process while the hide is still to wet for the breaking. If you do find one though let me know i have three elk hides and two deer in the salt right now.

I got to thinking about this and figured I'd ask some people with more of a technical background. I called up a few universities and here are the ones that couldn't give me an answer:

University of Kansas
Wyoming University
South Dakota State University
University of Nebraska
Cornell
Stanford
Johns Hopkins
MIT

haha I literally called all of their departments of biology with this question and none of them had an answer. I'll update the list as I keep trying different states. I'm starting to think that nobody knows because nobody's actually tried different methods of doing it.

I think what I'm going to do is cut this spare deer hide I have in to strips and test out different mixtures to see what happens.

Edited November 5, 2021 by HughMungis

[HughMungis]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:54 PM, chuck123wapati said:

If you do find one though let me know i have three elk hides and two deer in the salt right now.

Advanced Tanning Solutions sells something called "Enzymol" that works a little too well. It's not listed anywhere on their website but if you email or call them they'll help you out.

I let one of my bison hides soak in a barrel of it for a bit too long and I was accidentally ripping this gigantic grain leather with my bare hands. If you order some, the directions they send with shouldn't be thrown away lol.

[Bert03241]

I would imagine any testing you do would have to take years for any significant results. You might find something that works , only to find a year ot 2 or 3 later it all falls apart.Good luck tho let us know what you find.

[fredk]

Have you asked any Native Americans? I read these days a lot of tribes are trying to keep up and get old traditional crafts going. Curing hides might be within their remit and the instructors might have some ideas, even if they don't use modern methods but traditional ones they'd need to know which modern methods or chemicals not to use

[Sheilajeanne]

Fredk, I have a book that gives in detail the traditional Native American way of tanning deer hides. And believe me, it's a LOT of work!! Given the much bigger size and thickness of a bison hide, I'm guessing it would be twice as much work.

Doesn't hurt to ask, though. Some Native Americans have adopted more modern methods of doing things - the Tribal Spirit shop that I buy deer and moose hides from gets their hides from native hunters, and ships them to a tannery in Alberta. And I've heard most native craftspeople now use artificial sinew for sewing.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sheilajeanne

[chuck123wapati]

13 hours ago, fredk said:

Have you asked any Native Americans? I read these days a lot of tribes are trying to keep up and get old traditional crafts going. Curing hides might be within their remit and the instructors might have some ideas, even if they don't use modern methods but traditional ones they'd need to know which modern methods or chemicals not to use

Everything you need to know on brain tanning. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Deerskins-into-Buckskins-Brains-Soap/dp/0965867242

[blue duck]

@HughMungis I don't know if you are still calling folks, but you might try University of Alaska Fairbanks. They seem to have a very active native cultural department. They do quite a few workshops for the community on different historical subjects. Perhaps they could help you out or point you in the right direction.

 

[chuck123wapati]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:27 AM, HughMungis said:

I got to thinking about this and figured I'd ask some people with more of a technical background. I called up a few universities and here are the ones that couldn't give me an answer:

University of Kansas
Wyoming University
South Dakota State University
University of Nebraska
Cornell
Stanford
Johns Hopkins
MIT

haha I literally called all of their departments of biology with this question and none of them had an answer. I'll update the list as I keep trying different states. I'm starting to think that nobody knows because nobody's actually tried different methods of doing it.

I think what I'm going to do is cut this spare deer hide I have in to strips and test out different mixtures to see what happens.

Why do people think leather hasn't been studied to death???? Humans have been using it longer than science itself.

lol so much for " people with more of a technical background" knowing shit about anything i guess none of those Brainiac's  prolly know about these.  https://archive.org/details/pub_american-leather-chemists-association-journal 

We've done a half dozen hides since this post. Some things are as easy as they are ever going to get on a small scale project and there's a time when you just have to accept that, roll up your sleeves and work hard. Don't worry though its actually good for you.

 

22 hours ago, HughMungis said:

Advanced Tanning Solutions sells something called "Enzymol" that works a little too well. It's not listed anywhere on their website but if you email or call them they'll help you out.

I let one of my bison hides soak in a barrel of it for a bit too long and I was accidentally ripping this gigantic grain leather with my bare hands. If you order some, the directions they send with shouldn't be thrown away lol.

Thank you i appreciate that information but NO, I'll pass  i couldn't find any info anywhere on that product. I'm not chancing ruining a hide I've got so much work into already. 

[Bert03241]

Ok I no nothing about this subject. But it looks like you want to make the hide soft and you do this by working the hide back and forth over something. So here's a stupid Ideawhat if you threw the hide into a tumbler with some smooth stones and let it tumble for a while. Like I said I know nothing and it was just a crazy idea that popped into my head

[Sheilajeanne]

That would have to be one heck of a big tumbler, Bert!  

I could see maybe giving a try with a clothes dryer, but it would likely wreck the dryer, and the missus would have your head for it!

I use some plastic balls with spikes on them to soften clothes in my dryer as I hate chemical softeners. They work just fine. You could be onto something, though you'd have to find an old dryer someone had thrown out and get it working. Maybe one that's got the heating coil burned out, but the tumbler still works?

[Bert03241]

how bout an old cement mixer, maybe remove the paddles or not 

[ID45]

back in the 90s I did a lot of tanning using "bark tan" and pickling crystals from Van Dykes Taxidermy Supply I tanned several coyotes and bobcats fur on with great results also deer and even cow hides into leather - buckskin with ok results I still use the buckskin for lining leather, the cow hides came out too soft for most leather work but not as soft as a buffalo robe

[Sheilajeanne]

2 minutes ago, Bert03241 said:

how bout an old cement mixer, maybe remove the paddles or not 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Bert03241 said:

Ok I no nothing about this subject. But it looks like you want to make the hide soft and you do this by working the hide back and forth over something. So here's a stupid Ideawhat if you threw the hide into a tumbler with some smooth stones and let it tumble for a while. Like I said I know nothing and it was just a crazy idea that popped into my head

they do tumble hides to break them but the size of drum you need makes it all but impossible for a hobbyist type tanning setup. they have to be huge.so the hides don't ball up.

[fredk]

1 hour ago, Bert03241 said:

how bout an old cement mixer, maybe remove the paddles or not 

 

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

they do tumble hides to break them but the size of drum you need makes it all but impossible for a hobbyist type tanning setup. they have to be huge.so the hides don't ball up.

one of dem dare huge ready-mixed seeement deeeelivery trucks type drum? 

[Sheilajeanne]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

they do tumble hides to break them but the size of drum you need makes it all but impossible for a hobbyist type tanning setup. they have to be huge.so the hides don't ball up

Ookay, so not such a crazy idea after all!    Interesting to know it does work, if not for a hobbyist.

[fredk]

 

[fredk]

 

[Handstitched]

12 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

they do tumble hides to break them but the size of drum you need makes it all but impossible for a hobbyist type tanning setup. they have to be huge.so the hides don't ball up.

 

11 hours ago, fredk said:

one of dem dare huge ready-mixed seeement deeeelivery trucks type drum? 

How about a (clean) compost tumbler ,  they can be quite large, would that be big enough for a hobbyist?  t Just a thought . 

HS

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, fredk said:

 

even doing it with machines is labor intensive and wet, very cool videos Fred, do you notice how big the drums are comparative to the load they put in it. You would need a cement truck i think lol.

[Bert03241]

Well go figure , guess my idea was not so crazy and already thought of LOL

[Gosut]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:11 PM, fredk said:

 

Interesting. This tannery seems to use a combination chrome / veg tan process. They didn't show them breaking the hides. Does that mean chrome tanned hided don't need breaking? Sticking the hides to glass looks like an clever way around tacking a hide to a board or lacing it to a frame during drying.