When I price my piece, it feels too high

[Klara]

Yeah, well.... The way I see it, amateurs (not meant in a negative sense) should not undercut the prices of professionals. Because if they do, and if there are enough of them around (as in knitting) it becomes extremely difficult for the pros to sell their goods.

[toxo]

I got a commission yesterday for my Owl Bag.  Never sold one before so had to come up with a price.  We'd had a bit of a conversation where I told her I was getting away from bags in favour of smaller items because some of my bags sell elsewhere for £300/£400 but as a non brand I couldn't get anywhere near that. Then she saw the Owl and asked the question. With no clue (It's been a year since I made it.) I spun it back to her and asked what she'd pay for it. She said £150. Now this woman has so many ailments the poor woman took 5 mins to to tell me what they were. Then she said she wanted it lined with an internal zipped pocket so we agreed on £200. Now the good guy in me wanted to give it to her for cheap but the devil sitting on my shoulder told me that she's getting disability benefits and somehow I'd like to get back some of the money I've laid out for the skiver and the two sewing machines etc. I have the leather for it so it's just time really.

What are the hives thoughts?

 

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/5/2022 at 2:41 PM, toxo said:

I got a commission yesterday for my Owl Bag.  Never sold one before so had to come up with a price.  We'd had a bit of a conversation where I told her I was getting away from bags in favour of smaller items because some of my bags sell elsewhere for £300/£400 but as a non brand I couldn't get anywhere near that. Then she saw the Owl and asked the question. With no clue (It's been a year since I made it.) I spun it back to her and asked what she'd pay for it. She said £150. Now this woman has so many ailments the poor woman took 5 mins to to tell me what they were. Then she said she wanted it lined with an internal zipped pocket so we agreed on £200. Now the good guy in me wanted to give it to her for cheap but the devil sitting on my shoulder told me that she's getting disability benefits and somehow I'd like to get back some of the money I've laid out for the skiver and the two sewing machines etc. I have the leather for it so it's just time really.

What are the hives thoughts?

 

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you did just what i do most times when I'm asked to make something, first question i have is how much were you thinking on spending for it. it starts the process. Gives me and them an idea of how much they are willing to spend and gives me the ability to give an honest answer. " i can make it plain jane for that or how fancy do you want it? They also know then if they can afford what they want.

[Samalan]

  On 1/5/2022 at 9:39 AM, Klara said:

Yeah, well.... The way I see it, amateurs (not meant in a negative sense) should not undercut the prices of professionals. Because if they do, and if there are enough of them around (as in knitting) it becomes extremely difficult for the pros to sell their goods.

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We should all take the Jesse Owens attitude towards business when he was asked if it was harder for a black man to become an Olympic athlete he said to the young black man who asked that question" no you just become so good at what you do it doesn't matter what color you are" as a young man I saw that interview with Jesse Owens and never forgot it . As I was writing this I had to go out to a friends store to get some chicken that store is the best they make the best bread, cheese ,sausage, and everything Italian .they are the very best at what they do It's all the work you don't see it takes so much work to be the best their focus is on product first not price .

[Klara]

Wrong comparison. Jesse Owens was a sprinter annd long jumper -  quantifiable sports. If you are the best, you are, not much quibbling about it. How many black dressage riders do you know? For there the results depend on the judges' perceptions. And of course, first you need to get to competition level.. (https://www.elle.com/fashion/a34050278/black-equestrians/)

With quality and price of goods it's similar: Few absolutes, it's about what the customers see and think and feel.

[fredk]

I don't like making things to order. In the past, when I did, I had far too many clients quibbling about things. I prefer to make what I want to make and offer it for sale. When I've been asked 'can you make this for me?' I say 'yes, I can but I won't', Sometimes that ends the request. Sometimes I get asked 'how much for xxx?' I tell them ' you can't afford my prices'. Usually that ends the request but occasionally that ruffles their feathers and they insist on a price so I give them some really outrageous price. On a couple of times that backfired on me and I then took on the job

When I was a photographer a few of us in one area did something that was actually illegal. We had a cartel. We fixed all our prices to be similar so that we weren't competing against each other price wise, We did offer different range of services but they were priced according to our agreement. At the time their were loads of non-fulltime photogs out there, all undercutting our prices but they could not undercut or service thus they couldn't really compete with us.

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/5/2022 at 9:39 AM, Klara said:

Yeah, well.... The way I see it, amateurs (not meant in a negative sense) should not undercut the prices of professionals. Because if they do, and if there are enough of them around (as in knitting) it becomes extremely difficult for the pros to sell their goods.

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so someone with less skillset than you for example should price their goods at the same price as what you sell? So that you don't have competition? Why would they? Here's the way i see it there is about 7 or 8 billion people in the world. if you cant sell and make a living that's not someone elses fault. if your a pro then your name will sell over the cheaper stuff. That's just business. 

[Samalan]

  On 1/7/2022 at 9:04 AM, Klara said:

Wrong comparison. Jesse Owens was a sprinter annd long jumper -  quantifiable sports. If you are the best, you are, not much quibbling about it. How many black dressage riders do you know? For there the results depend on the judges' perceptions. And of course, first you need to get to competition level.. (https://www.elle.com/fashion/a34050278/black-equestrians/)

With quality and price of goods it's similar: Few absolutes, it's about what the customers see and think and feel.

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Wow talk about missing the point, It's not a judge, or someone else, who determines where one stands, it's you yourself. Make it a good day Klara.

[Samalan]

  On 1/7/2022 at 1:31 PM, Samalan said:

Wow talk about missing the point, It's not a judge, or someone else, who determines where one stands, it's you yourself. Make it a good day Klara.

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" Nothing splendid has ever been achieved except by those who dared believe that something inside of them was superior to circumstance."

Bruce Barton

[chrisash]

Life is funny, take cars you can buy the basic car at xxx and the delux model with pin stripe down the side and slightly different seats for xxx +20%. In England many companies a couple of years ago sold sat nav's as extras at £1000 yet you could buy  non attached ones under £100. Car makers are expert in upselling maybe 5 or 6 upgrades to a basic car

Many leather hobby people cannot afford the price of leather so whilst they are still learning the skills try and sell their poor quality goods at professional prices and then when they don't sell bring down the price to the leather cost price or below

There is a huge market out there for professionally made and marketed leather goods, there is also a huge market for mass produced leather goods but only with cheap leather and mass production

Be happy as a hobby making goods for friends and family whilst you learn the skills to become a professional and don't rush the learning process and pretend to be offering quality items

[Klara]

  On 1/7/2022 at 10:26 AM, chuck123wapati said:

so someone with less skillset than you for example should price their goods at the same price as what you sell?

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Exactly. Because with fewer skills they will work slower and thus earn less per hour, even though the finished item costs the same. That's assuming they can produce the same quality in the end, with equivalent material.

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/7/2022 at 2:35 PM, Klara said:

Exactly. Because with fewer skills they will work slower and thus earn less per hour, even though the finished item costs the same. That's assuming they can produce the same quality in the end, with equivalent material.

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Good luck with that thought, the crux of your problem, with fewer skills they simply cant produce the same assumed quality its not all about speed is it. They know that, the consumer knows that, the consumer wont pay for theirs the same amount. They wont starve so you can flourish just that simple IMO. they would say you get faster if you want to make more.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/7/2022 at 2:26 PM, chrisash said:

Life is funny, take cars you can buy the basic car at xxx and the delux model with pin stripe down the side and slightly different seats for xxx +20%. In England many companies a couple of years ago sold sat nav's as extras at £1000 yet you could buy  non attached ones under £100. Car makers are expert in upselling maybe 5 or 6 upgrades to a basic car

Many leather hobby people cannot afford the price of leather so whilst they are still learning the skills try and sell their poor quality goods at professional prices and then when they don't sell bring down the price to the leather cost price or below

There is a huge market out there for professionally made and marketed leather goods, there is also a huge market for mass produced leather goods but only with cheap leather and mass production

Be happy as a hobby making goods for friends and family whilst you learn the skills to become a professional and don't rush the learning process and pretend to be offering quality items

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with almost 8 billion people on earth there is enough market to go around.

They wont starve so you can flourish just that simple IMO. and why they call it competition.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by chuck123wapati

[Samalan]

  On 1/7/2022 at 9:04 AM, Klara said:

Wrong comparison. Jesse Owens was a sprinter annd long jumper -  quantifiable sports. If you are the best, you are, not much quibbling about it. How many black dressage riders do you know? For there the results depend on the judges' perceptions. And of course, first you need to get to competition level.. (https://www.elle.com/fashion/a34050278/black-equestrians/)

With quality and price of goods it's similar: Few absolutes, it's about what the customers see and think and feel.

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You know it's funny but it sounds like you think people who make things with there hands are making junk I can assure you being a maker myself people who have bought my hand made products have almost always paid more because my products are that much better and or different but then the people that buy from me want and expect the best my customers always get all they asked for and more I never compromise on the best quality I can give them " And I get all the money to accomplish that goal"

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/7/2022 at 6:07 PM, Samalan said:

You know it's funny but it sounds like you think people who make things with there hands are making junk I can assure you being a maker myself people who have bought my hand made products have almost always paid more because my products are that much better and or different but then the people that buy from me want and expect the best my customers always get all they asked for and more I never compromise on the best quality I can give them " And I get all the money to accomplish that goal"

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I'll tell you another little story about competition. Back in the day here in Wyoming prison inmates could do hobbies. Our prison had an inmate that ran a leather shop, he had about 6 other inmates employed for him and together they sold thousands of dollars worth of leather goods. Yes if you bought leather in Jackson Hole Wyoming back in the 80s and 90s it was inmate made. I've personally seen those store owners fill up their cars with leather and other products at the pen. That guy made over 60 grand a year and sent it all home to his family. Even before that leather goods were sold at the prison, that is gone now in Wyoming but other prisons still allow hobby work and they sell it.

[Tugadude]

  On 1/7/2022 at 8:49 PM, chuck123wapati said:

I'll tell you another little story about competition. Back in the day here in Wyoming prison inmates could do hobbies. Our prison had an inmate that ran a leather shop, he had about 6 other inmates employed for him and together they sold thousands of dollars worth of leather goods. Yes if you bought leather in Jackson Hole Wyoming back in the 80s and 90s it was inmate made. I've personally seen those store owners fill up their cars with leather and other products at the pen. That guy made over 60 grand a year and sent it all home to his family. Even before that leather goods were sold at the prison, that is gone now in Wyoming but other prisons still allow hobby work and they sell it.

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That's a great story.  So when the person (hopefully) is released to the public again they have a means of income.  Talk about a win-win.  

[Samalan]

  On 1/7/2022 at 8:49 PM, chuck123wapati said:

I'll tell you another little story about competition. Back in the day here in Wyoming prison inmates could do hobbies. Our prison had an inmate that ran a leather shop, he had about 6 other inmates employed for him and together they sold thousands of dollars worth of leather goods. Yes if you bought leather in Jackson Hole Wyoming back in the 80s and 90s it was inmate made. I've personally seen those store owners fill up their cars with leather and other products at the pen. That guy made over 60 grand a year and sent it all home to his family. Even before that leather goods were sold at the prison, that is gone now in Wyoming but other prisons still allow hobby work and they sell

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My two brother in laws worked at the same prison here in Mass one of them got my farther a prisoner made leather wallet I got that wallet at some point and still have it. It's a very nice piece of work , that's from about 40 years ago.

[tsunkasapa]

  On 1/7/2022 at 9:34 PM, Samalan said:

My two brother in laws worked at the same prison here in Mass one of them got my farther a prisoner made leather wallet I got that wallet at some point and still have it. It's a very nice piece of work , that's from about 40 years ago.

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QUALITY leather work will last a very long time. My mother, 85 YO, still carries a wallet she made in high school.

[Samalan]

  On 1/7/2022 at 11:45 PM, tsunkasapa said:

QUALITY leather work will last a very long time. My mother, 85 YO, still carries a wallet she made in high school.

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That is very cool something made with purpose and intention God bless your Mom.

[williaty]

  On 12/29/2021 at 4:15 PM, Warhauk said:

I know there are algorithms for prices our work and the one I've been trying to follow is roughly the (material + time) x 2. Then, I feel like the prices is too high so usually end up lowering it a bit further even though I suspect I am already undervaluing my time aspect quite a bit (I'm a little bit slow on my production speed but still am probably undercutting my time too much).

But then I look at the price I am trying to sell and it feels too high still. For example, pricing out a set of 4 bondage cuffs, which cost me about $10 to make per cuff, and doing the hand stitching, hand dying, etc. Even if I only value my time at $10/hr AND assume it only takes 1 hour to make a cuff (which I am pretty sure it takes a decent bit longer but I tend to have issues timing, with other responsibilities and breaks and stuff), I would be charging about $40 per cuff, where as on etsy, similar looking things (though most likely lower quality but they look pretty similar) are like $40-80 for an entire set of 4 cuffs, collar, and leash.

I am just feeling pretty disheartened trying to sell my stuff when competing with these mass producers.

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To wrestle this thread back on topic after It got way off with that needless argument that just happened...

 

I make the same products. A pair of wrist cuffs or a pair of ankle cuffs runs $100. If someone is going to buy both kinds at the same time, I discount it to $175 because I save about $25 worth of my time not having to deal with them on 2 separate occasions. I have never had anyone be hesitant about the price. About every other aspect of whether or not this is the thing they want, sure, but the price is never a problem. I'm sure that part of the reason why is all my sales are in person. By the time they hear a price, they've handled them, probably worn them, had friends who already own a set, etc. I also act like every set is custom made. They get to pick leather colors, thread colors, hardware finishes, etc but in reality I help them lead themselves along to choosing materials I already have in stock. So they get something they feel like they customized just for themselves but it's no extra work for me. Once in a while someone will be set on something really crazy expensive and I say I'll order it in special for them but they pay extra for the exotic materials.  The other thing that helped was realizing that the materials costs are tiny compared to the value of my labor. It meant that I could order the absolute best materials of each thing I could find and only push the price of the final piece up a few percent. However, using "finest imported Italian leather" or whatever helps them sell because it's something the customers can brag about later.

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/7/2022 at 9:10 PM, Tugadude said:

That's a great story.  So when the person (hopefully) is released to the public again they have a means of income.  Talk about a win-win.  

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But not so good of an ending

Modern corrections dont allow for much of that anymore, including hobbies, it is to bad really. These people get out and some become your neighbors. Now they get out no better than when they went in. Keeps corrections in business.

Back in the day we had a complete auto shop ,welding ,machinery, electronics shops, carpentry, upholstery all state certified educational courses and shops for inmates. We also had a license plate facility textiles facility laundry ,facility maintenance,  kitchen and bakery for work type jobs.  it all went away one day when three tried to escape and killed an officer. Every inmate was locked down, the "Department of corrections" was created a big stir was raised and we built a new prison about a quarter mile away and moved.  And most all that equipment is still sitting there in an abandoned building.

Sorry for the deviation from topic all.

Edited January 8, 2022 by chuck123wapati

[Samalan]

  On 1/8/2022 at 2:02 AM, williaty said:

I am just feeling pretty disheartened trying to sell my stuff when competing with these mass producers

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So don't compete with them do your custom thing and market to that demographic make your product better or different enough that the extra price doesn't matter and that is two ways to solve your problem it's a lot of work but it can be done. "Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off of the goal" 

[sbrownn]

  On 1/8/2022 at 3:20 PM, Samalan said:

So don't compete with them do your custom thing and market to that demographic make your product better or different enough that the extra price doesn't matter and that is two ways to solve your problem it's a lot of work but it can be done. "Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off of the goal" 

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An excellent suggestion.  

Make your design unique and your craftsmanship and leather and hardware quality better.  

[chuck123wapati]

  On 1/8/2022 at 3:20 PM, Samalan said:

 "Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off of the goal" 

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exactly!!  competition wont go away we are faced with in every aspect of life really. Apply for a job and your competing, want a promotion? compete! What makes world class athletes the best? The challenge of competition! Don't fear it, embrace it, challenge it, elbow your way in and do what it takes.

[Samalan]

  On 1/8/2022 at 4:41 PM, chuck123wapati said:

elbow your way in and do what it takes

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" We will either find a way, or make one "

--- Hannibal