What can a Juki TL actually do?

[DrmCa]

2 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

The premise that a Juki dealer would lie to me and say that a $999 machine can do something when they could easily try to sell me a machine that costs double just doesn't make any sense. 

You are not the first one to come here and get your pants in the knot over buying a domestic machine in the hope that it would stitch leather.

I could lecture you on how salespeople are trained to size people and their budgets but you clearly know everything already, so I'll let you be.

All I can tell you is that between myself and my wife we've gone over the 120 YO hand-crank Singer, a number of cast iron, pot metal, and plastic domestic machines, and now we own that which is in my sig line on top of 2x domestic Singers, 1x domestic Brother, and 1x domestic Kenmore of which only the latter is being used while the former 2x are collecting dust in the basement.

[kgg]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

You are not the first one to come here and get your pants in the knot over buying a domestic machine in the hope that it would stitch leather.

I think a lot of people search the net for "the best leather sewing machine" reviews before buying. When you look at almost all of them they are nothing more then domestic machines being reviewed. This coupled with sales people not being properly trained that are dealing with mostly the domestic market and you wind up with members of the general public being mislead (insert non politically correct word) to say the least.

kgg

[chrisash]

@CrankAddict Regarding your video that's very soft chrome leather he is using as you can see by how easy it is toe bend double

[CrankAddict]

8 hours ago, Matt S said:

Limits for domestic sewing machines on leather are, generally speaking, 2-3mm total thickness of medium temper chrome tan or a bit less in veg tan leather unless very soft. Max thread size is probably v69/TKT40 using a size 18/nm110 leather point needle. Max stitch length is generally around 3mm or 8SPI and may be lower on leather as the maxed out tension, potentially grabby foot and not-very-positive feed may not grip the work enough to feed it the entire length of the feed stroke. As 99+% of these machines are drop-feed-only you are very likely to encounter layer slippage unless very carefully handled or your layers are glued together, and very likely feed-dog marks on the underside (which aren't the end of the world, but are usually less acceptable these days than 50+ years ago). There's also likely to be uneven/inconsistent stitch length and formation. Tension will be at or near its limit which will put extra strain on parts like the take-up arm and its driving parts, which will increase the likelihood of breaking or bending. You will probably also have the foot pressure cranked up to max to prevent lifting of the piece with the needle, which may inhibit the easy functioning of your machine.

Remember that sewing anything other than thin, soft garment leather will put stresses on a machine that domestics and most garment/cloth type machines simply weren't/aren't designed to handle. Primarily they occur at the point when driving the needle into the material, pulling tension on the thread, and pulling the needle free of the material after stitch lock. This will put strain on the moving and fixed parts that may result in premature wear, breakage or bending. Your motor may also be put under extra strain, as it takes a lot of force to drive the needle into the leather. Older machines (especially those fitted with a hand crank or treadle) are often found to be more useful as their have a heavier balance wheel which "stores" more energy to get through that through bit of the stitch cycle. I don't think I've seen any modern domestic with anything like that, except some Indian copies of 19th century domestics.

Thanks Matt, lots of great info in there, I appreciate it!

 

7 hours ago, DrmCa said:

You are not the first one to come here and get your pants in the knot over buying a domestic machine in the hope that it would stitch leather.

I could lecture you on how salespeople are trained to size people and their budgets but you clearly know everything already, so I'll let you be.

All I can tell you is that between myself and my wife we've gone over the 120 YO hand-crank Singer, a number of cast iron, pot metal, and plastic domestic machines, and now we own that which is in my sig line on top of 2x domestic Singers, 1x domestic Brother, and 1x domestic Kenmore of which only the latter is being used while the former 2x are collecting dust in the basement.

Again, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm stupid enough to think salespeople are 100% forthcoming.  But I still cannot find the logic behind a dealer who sells both a small machine and a big machine telling me the small machine can do something it cannot.  Why would GM lie about what the 1/2 ton truck can tow when they have a 3/4 and 1 ton they could tell me I need instead?  It's not like I gave them a budget, or was on the verge of walking out the door, I was literally asking an open ended question about what I needed... I guess some sales people are as dumb as me!

 

4 hours ago, chrisash said:

@CrankAddict Regarding your video that's very soft chrome leather he is using as you can see by how easy it is toe bend double

Noted, understood.  But THIS is the sort of thing I was trying to get it.  Keep in mind my post is titled "what can it actually do?".  I.e. I was looking for precisely those types of parameters: X layers of leather of Y type and Z thickness with thread size blah blah blah.   Some seem to have read the post as "Why did you guys waste money on these industrial machines when a domestic sewing machine can clearly do it all?  And how do I know this?  Because the salesperson told me!!"

[Wizcrafts]

16 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Keep in mind my post is titled "what can it actually do?".  I.e. I was looking for precisely those types of parameters: X layers of leather of Y type and Z thickness with thread size blah blah blah.   Some seem to have read the post as "Why did you guys waste money on these industrial machines when a domestic sewing machine can clearly do it all?  And how do I know this?  Because the salesperson told me!!"

This sentence reminds me of when I decided I needed a sewing machine to sew a leather vest I was making from a Tandy Leather pattern and using their chrome tan leather the salesman recommended. He told me that he had a nice Singer Slant Needle machine for sale on consignment. I went to the back to look it over and decided to try it out. He threaded it up, put a small sample cut of similar leather under the foot, pressed the pedal and immediately broke the needle into a dozen pieces! The motor smelled bad too after that event. The smell of hot wires. Anywho, the Tandy guy told me that I needed an industrial sewing machine. This began my search for a leather sewing machine.

I let me fingers do the walking and found an industrial sewing machine dealer not far from the Tandy store. I told him what I wanted to sew and he told me that he had the exact machine I needed to sew leather and it was only $200!. An hour later I had a Singer 96k40,with a 20x48 inch table, a clutch motor, light and thread stand in my station wagon. I could hardly wait to get it home, drag in downstairs to the basement, set it up and begin sewing leather! But, I was in for some serious fetchin' up.

The dealer had supplied me with a spool of black #69 bonded nylon thread and a pack of ten #18 round point needles. I broke all ten needles trying to feed and sew the vest, which dragged to a halt at every change of layers. The stitches varied in length all over the place. The holes were  ugly and the thread bunched up on the bottom. But, he said it was just the machine I needed to sew leather! It must be so! I called him back and he told me that I bought the wrong type of feed. I needed a walking foot machine! Huh? I asked what that was and he told me he had one for sale. I asked if I could bring back the 96k40 in trade and he said NO, all sales are final!

As I learned a few weeks later, the Singer 96k40, although an industrial sewing machine, was NOT a leather sewing machine. It was a tailoring machine for cloth garments and light ones at that.

The "walking foot" machine he sold me, for $400 for the head only (shared table and knee lever), was a Singer 31-19 with a spring foot mechanism. It was from the early 1910s, but it sewed my layered vest without breaking any needles or having uneven stitch lengths. It was an eye opener for me. As archaic as the spring foot was, it worked.

A year later I found and bought a Singer 111w155, which had an actual triple or compound feed walking foot mechanism. I thought that machine could sew anything made of leather, including holsters. But, again, I had some fetchin' up coming...

[dikman]

Which is precisely why we have that excellent sticky by Wiz about what machine(s) you need to sew leather. Even with that, the learning curve for a novice (me) was pretty steep.

Honestly, if you go into a dealer and say you want something to sew leather if they know anything at all about the subject they should not be recommending a domestic machine (of any kind). There is a very  high probability that it will eventually end in frustration (or crying, if you're a gentle soul).

[Spyros]

I think leatherworkers have a use for those machines.  Not for leather as such, but sometimes you need to make a drop-in liner out of thin/soft goat skin or sunbrella, or you're doing a canvas & leather bag and you have to do sections of only canvas. Looks like that little "heavy duty" domestic machine would be just fine for those applications and a nice complement to a leather workshop.  It looks like it has a metal frame under the plastic, most cogs are metal, and most importantly it looks like Singer made it be repairable, and they don't do that for machines that are meant to be used for a couple of years and then throw away.  

I wouldn't mind one of those for those ancillary to leatherworking tasks.  That is of course if Singer Australia wasn't taking the piss with their pricing.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, dikman said:

Which is precisely why we have that excellent sticky by Wiz about what machine(s) you need to sew leather. Even with that, the learning curve for a novice (me) was pretty steep.

Honestly, if you go into a dealer and say you want something to sew leather if they know anything at all about the subject they should not be recommending a domestic machine (of any kind). There is a very  high probability that it will eventually end in frustration (or crying, if you're a gentle soul).

yeah but if you go into a dealer there is also a high probability they will steer you towards a $10k Juki when all you want to do is a bag a week as a hobby.  Don't ask me how I know 

[Matt S]

19 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Thanks Matt, lots of great info in there, I appreciate it!

You're welcome! 

19 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Again, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm stupid enough to think salespeople are 100% forthcoming.  But I still cannot find the logic behind a dealer who sells both a small machine and a big machine telling me the small machine can do something it cannot.  Why would GM lie about what the 1/2 ton truck can tow when they have a 3/4 and 1 ton they could tell me I need instead?  It's not like I gave them a budget, or was on the verge of walking out the door, I was literally asking an open ended question about what I needed... I guess some sales people are as dumb as me!

Honestly I think it's ignorance -- most sewing machine dealers, even those who focus on industrial machines, have very little idea of what's needed for leather. Your dealer may have very well thought that the TL2010 was plenty enough gun. Unless the person comes from a background in farming, horses, safety gear, historical re-enactment etc. the average man on the street thinks is leather is a thin material with a soft handle used for making shoes, wallets and bags with multiple layers. The thickest, toughest leather they've probably come across is a 3mm/1/8" thick single layer belt or maybe a leather sole on a fancy shoe. I've had very skilled tradesmen astounded that I can make 6mm (1/4") thick belts. It's just two layers of bridle leather glued and stitched together, a very basic task for the heavier side of the leather trades, either by hand or machine. My 100-year-old harness stitcher can do an inch of that stuff all day.
 

8 hours ago, Spyros said:

I think leatherworkers have a use for those machines.  Not for leather as such, but sometimes you need to make a drop-in liner out of thin/soft goat skin or sunbrella, or you're doing a canvas & leather bag and you have to do sections of only canvas. Looks like that little "heavy duty" domestic machine would be just fine for those applications and a nice complement to a leather workshop.  It looks like it has a metal frame under the plastic, most cogs are metal, and most importantly it looks like Singer made it be repairable, and they don't do that for machines that are meant to be used for a couple of years and then throw away.  

I wouldn't mind one of those for those ancillary to leatherworking tasks.  That is of course if Singer Australia wasn't taking the piss with their pricing.

Agree with you on this point. I've got a variety of non-leather-working "stuff" that supports the leatherwork. A fabric/garment type machine can be a handy thing in a leather workshop. A domestic is a cheap and low-bulk way of gaining that capability for occasional use. I tend to gravitate towards the older ones (like my 1930s 66K) but acknowledge that the more modern plastic fantastics do have some useful features, like pattern stitching at the press of a button.

8 hours ago, Spyros said:

yeah but if you go into a dealer there is also a high probability they will steer you towards a $10k Juki when all you want to do is a bag a week as a hobby.  Don't ask me how I know 

Not knowing what you said you wanted to sew I would give that dealer the potential copout that whether you're doing 1 bag a week or 100 that $10K Juki might be the minimum viable machine to get the capability you asked for. Let's say you wanted to be able to sew heavy leather holsters but also adjust down to sew lighter wallets and bags. They may not have anything else capable of the job that isn't a $10K TSC-441 or DNU-243. No matter how often you use it you still need to buy a machine with the same capabilities, and industrial/leather machines don't appear to be in enough demand to become a consumer item engineered to be cheaper with a similar quality of output but shorter lifespan than the professional equivalent like we're used to seeing with other things, like domestic appliances, DIY tools or consumer electronics.

[CrankAddict]

2 hours ago, Matt S said:

Unless the person comes from a background in farming, horses, safety gear, historical re-enactment etc. the average man on the street thinks is leather is a thin material with a soft handle used for making shoes, wallets and bags with multiple layers.

But isn't "leather" interchangeable for "wood" in this regard?  I can build nice furniture all day long with the tools I have accumulated.  The wood is all going to be 2" thick or less and depending on the type of cut I pick from an array of saws to fit the task.  But as soon as you show up with 6" x 6" timber beams looking to build a cabin I'm completely stuck.  I don't have anything in the shop that can do even a simple crosscut on those monsters.  You wouldn't refer to a furniture maker or cabinet maker as "the average man on the street" as if to imply he knows nothing about wood.  His projects just utilize a different scale of material.  In your examples the first half of the list is of no interest to me whatsoever, whereas wallets, watch straps, European style bags, thin belts are exactly what I'm wanting to do.  The talk of a 1" thick leather project sounds as crazy to me as a 1' thick wood project.  I'm coming to realize that I found my way into the lumberjack corner of the leatherworking universe so I understand that my target projects are a bit out of sync with the normal stuff around here 

Edited February 5, 2022 by CrankAddict