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Mulefool-that cantle binding (with the scalloped edges and a brass nail in each scallop) is actually fairly common on gaited saddles. In fact I just bought one from a member on another forum ( which I believe you also belong to) that has that cantle binding, the only difference is that the back of the cantle is covered then the seat is stretched over that and nailed down. I think it makes for a pretty good looking cantle, and probably saves some time in finishing. The saddles that are shown on this thread are all perfect examples of what I've been thinking about building ( and why I started the skirts thread), you folks on this forum are truly a fount of knowledge. David

I don't know what that one particular is but it reminds me of an old manual style car window crank. You could probably get one at an auto parts store. Some of the old ones connected with a screw, if you could find one of them then you could just drill a hole in the top of the bolt and screw the handle right to it.

For those of you who have built a lightweight saddle like this...how much weight did you save as opposed to one of your regular saddles?

That rigging reminds me a lot of the style of rigging that was popular before the Sam Stagg rigging took over. If you look in the leather history forum for a thread about the coolest PDF, or something like that, you can see a lot of pictures of pre-Sam Stagg rigged saddles and the rigging mostly looks like this. David

"A butch cassidy tree is a A fork . the fork slopes ahead about 1" " Thank you for explaining that to me. I may have been confused on which saddles were being called a Butch Cassidy in the past. Again, this is a beautiful saddle. David

Timbo, I'm not positive this is exactly the same saddle but here ya go http://www.saddlemaker.com/1872.html Bruce--as far as the skirts distributing the pressure from the rigging. I have seen a lot of old saddles that never had skirts under the rigging, look at the buena vista style plantation saddles for example. TroyWest--The saddle you are describing is exactly what I have been thinking about building. I get a lot of short backed horses to ride and the big skirts that are common now a days tend to rub against hips. Especially young walking horses ( which is what I ride and therefor what I start the most of) that tend to have bonier hips than quarter horses anyway. D-A-M--I think the reason for your blankets sliding was the lack of leather not the lack of skirts. As has been pointed out McClellans had no skirts and blankets stayed under them. A lot of the old gaited saddles also didn't have skirts. My wife rides a buena vista on her walkaloosa( it just has the bars covered and stuffed with wool like an english saddle or australian saddle) and we don't have problems with the blanket sliding. As far as the shearling vs felt I had just noticed a lot of production saddles with the felt lately and when I got to looking I noticed it used to be offered a lot on saddles in the early 1900's Also, I just wanted to say I appreciate all the answers to my questions. You guys are great. David

I can't believe no one has an opinion on this...

This is a beautiful saddle but, every saddle I've seen with a Butch Cassidy tree has been a swell fork. I assumed it Butch Cassidy saddles were modeled after the saddle of Butch Cassidy ( and the Sundance Kid) so is that incorrect? Is this a tree maker or am I just confused somewhere? What makes it a Butch Cassidy tree?

Rod and Denise, I really appreciate your patients with my questions and you are giving excellent answers. It's interesting that you said the fork shouldn't be the first thing to break on a tree, I watched a video on the Martin Saddlery website where they used a hydralic jack to "stress test" a tree and it broke slap through the fork (just a little above where the fork joins to the bars on the near side of the tree) before it even came close to breaking a bar. I found the link on this forum so you may have already seen the video. Is that not the norm then? I would have thought the bars were the weakest part of the tree until I saw that video. As far as broken trees go I have never had one break and I've had some pretty rough spills, the wade saddle I just traded off had an 8 yr old mare stand up fall over on it then roll across it a couple of times. I took it to a local saddle maker because I figured sure it was mush but we looked at the tree and you couldn't tell it had happened. I guess I'm just lucky it was muddy that day, even though I didn't feel lucky trying to clean all that mud off.

would they tend to flex or give with a heavy rider? I noticed the ground seat is formed on them already so is it a decent seat? I mean if you put stirrups and rigging on it could you ride it like it is? I know that's not a great idea, I'm just wondering how much work the seat would need.

I have noticed some Ralide trees for sale but I have never dealt with one. I know the tree makers probably won't like them but what do you saddle makers think of them? Does it take a special type of glue to get the leather to stick to them? Will they hold up like a wood tree?

Rod and Denise, I actually did read the article on your website. It actually gave me a lot of answers and left me with a lot of questions. I guess I should have been more specific on my questions. On the differences in the bar degrees--thank you that was the answer I was looking for. On the differences in the bars themselves I was more wondering what you do differently if a customer asks for gaited bars or wade bars? On the Arizona bars when you say "Arizona bars do not have a back stirrup groove" by back do you mean the horse side of the bar or do you mean the back of the seat (as in closer to the cantle)? When you say "Wade bars have more surface area..." and "The bottom line is that a good bar pattern that has a lot of surface area and fits the shape of the horse's back will not dig in anywhere,..." are you recommending wade bars? I know I had a wade saddle ( I traded it for a horse trailer this weekend) and I rode many horses in it with never a problem, even gaited horses performed well in it. When I asked how narrow can a slick fork be I mean if you took a caliper and measured from the edge of the handhole to the outside of the fork ( keeping the caliper horizontally level) right where the inside of the bar connects to the fork, how thin can this be? By thinning that measurement it would thin the measurement across the tree at that position ( what I would call the swell measurement). Again thanks for the info, I'm learning a lot from this site.

I wonder if you would be kind enough to share the dimensions of this seat? I have some heavy skirting leather and I think this seat would be a great Christmas gift for my uncle. He loves to ride but he has steel rods in his back so he has to dismount and sit a lot when riding. This looks like it would pack right behind a saddle and would make it much easier for him to get back up and moving after his breaks. I saw the thread on the 3 way bolt and I can weld them myself but what size did you use? Also, did you just buy wooden dals at the hardware store for your legs?

I have seen a lot of old saddles and they all seem to have smaller skirts than is normal for modern saddles. Especially the older gaited saddles like Buena Vistas they really don't even have skirts just covered bars. I would be curious to know what you folks think about skirts and how small is too small? If someone built skirts to the shape of the bars but maybe 2 inches bigger all the way around would that be detrimental? What do the skirts do but keep sweat off the rider and look good? When it comes to padding skirts what is the benefit of shearling over the felted wool (like Don 101 used on his half seat saddle)?

I have noticed that there are several tree makers on this forum and I would like some definative answers about trees. I know there are rarely any definative answers about trees but I'm hoping... Here are my questions: First, it's my understanding that 90 degree bars are more verticle than 93 degree bars and therefore would be more for a horse with narrower or more pronounced withers where as 93 degree bars are for the mutton withered wide backed horses. Is that correct? Secondly, what's the actual difference in the bar types? I've heard my whole life you need gaited bars for gaited horses, I know that's not absolutely true but, I also know that the wrong bars will definately screw up a gait. So how do gaited bars differ from QH bars and Arab bars and Wade Bars and Arizona Bars? Are there any other types of bars that I missed? Third, I've always refered to the measurement from the outside edge of the fork to the opposite outside edge of the fork as the swell width ( I don't know if that's the correct term but it's what I've heard it called) what's the narrowest swell width that could be put on a slick fork saddle and that saddle still be usable? By usable I'm talking about dallying colts and maybe dragging a log. I don't find myself with a lot of cattle on the other end of my rope but I have had a few 4yr old colts there. I hope you folks don't mind my silly questions but they are things that have nagged at me for a while. Thanks in Advance David

For those of us who don't build saddles as a day job can someone explain what is meant by plugging skirts? Better yet does someone have pictures of this? David

I think you just made yourself a millionare. That's the coolest invention I've seen in a long time. Better get your customer list ready cause I want on it too. Let me know if you are looking for investors. I agree with the others it would be cool to inset a peice of leather tooled with a logo, Or you could do custom orders and engrave logos in the metal. How many sizes are you going to have them in? Are you going to have different materials? David

I guess I'll be the first to tell you how nice this saddle looks. It's pretty awesome in my opinion. It doesn't look like the stirrup leathers are sewn to the fenders ( maybe just my eyes though) are they in fact separate? If so that's the first time I've seen that on stirrups with the leathers on the outside and not attached to the fender except at the buckles. Anyway, it looks like a real nice saddle to me. David

This is an awesome bag.

Looks great to me.

I feel the same frustration as you folks. I have went so far as to ask some saddle makers in my area but no one wants to train possible competition I guess. Maybe we should get a thread started of people looking for training/apprenticeships. That way we could post where we are and what kind of education we are looking for and wait for the experts to stop by and pick us up... I've been looking for a saddle maker in Northwest GA to let me watch him build an all leather ground seat for quite a while now. It kind of irks me to hear people talk about disappearing crafts and, at the same time, to know that craftsmen don't want to pass on their knowledge.

Firstly, I must say that Wolvenstien, it's time to do some fact checking. Bush didn't deregulate the banking industry, no one did. That's why there is still a banking comission ( Representative Dodd heads it ). What was deregulated was oil futures trading ( by congressional vote not executive order) and that's why our gas prices are now getting closer to those of countries on other continents. However, the fact that banking is not deregulated and this shit still happens means things are even worse than you thought. I completely agree that we have gov't employees in Washington who should be in the unemployment line already because of the BS they have pulled on Americans. The problem is we don't have enough Americans pissed off enough to actually get off their couches and go vote. If we did we could take our country back. I heard a statistic that only 35% of Americans voted in the last election ( I'm not positive about that number but it's close) and you can bet most of those who are voting are the ones that work for/own these big businesses that are running our gov't. Now let me ask you if you held an office that was dependant on voter approval would you not do what the voters wanted? Even though I know it's a mute point at this time I'll restate a fact that I have told many people. It's a fact that George Washington turned down a 3rd term as President because he felt the biggest threat to America was professional politicians. If George Washington worried about professional politicians ruining our country, how can we not? Why then do we keep getting professional politicians as our representatives. Show me politicians who have "real" jobs, which ones work outside of their duties as a politician or have worked as something other than a politician. I think it's time Americans got to work and got some representatives in Washington who are actually representative of America.

While I don't do leatherwork for anyone other than myself (at this time) I do make products from rope that I sell to individuals and tack stores. If it's welcome I would be interested in adding my halters, leadlines, mecates, and long lines to the site. I'm also working on a design for a rope halter that would have no hardware at all. ( except the bit of course) How would this work? Would there be an actual warehouse for the items? or would it be like Amazon where you just list items and the price and when people respond you ship it out? Is this for existing inventory only or could custom orders be taken via this sales site? Here are some examples of my work

Well since the big issue seems to be subprime mortgages ( shame on banks and lawyers for coming up with an ARM that they knew would end with them owning houses they had to forclose on AND shame on buyers for agreeing to ARMs that they really couldn't afford thinking they could sell the house and make money before it adjusted) I say let age old system deal with the problem. Bank forcloses on everything, then they end up bankrupt, house goes up for auction for back taxes. Million dollar houses are now worth 500 bucks. Only issue is that people like me, who bought their house recently end up upside down and no way out. I bought my house about 8 months before the bottom fell out. Unfortunately, I went against my better judgement and let myself be talked into a 10yr loan with a balloon payment. Now that I'm upside down, if I don't find a way to come up with the amount of the balloon payment I'll loose my home too. Don't worry about me, I have that worked out( I can use my VA loan for the balloon payment ) so I didn't go into this blind I was just using me as an example of what thousands of other Americans are going through. Due to the above example, there are many many Americans who believe in the "bailout" because they are being told by Gov't and banks alike that this will free up money so the bank can make loans. If the banks can make loans again then these people have a light at the end of their tunnel so they desparately want this bill passed. Personal Opinion, you shouldn't get into something that you can't get out of even in the worst situation. When I bought my house, even though it's not my dream home, I bought a house I could stand to live in the rest of my life, so if I can't sell it eventually then oh well. When I let myself be talked into the balloon payment I made sure I had a back up plan just in case something horrible happened. Well, something horrible happened and I may have to use my back up plan. I also don't see that banks are having that much trouble making loans as my brother in law (who's not even 21) just bought a house, with less than perfect credit and not that great a job. I see people all around me with new cars, etc. I think a lot of what's happening is just what Randy said about politicians practicing the oldest policy in the world (C>Y>A). I do see some benefits of this plan and I see some drawbacks but either way the plan has been so convoluted now that I don't even know what is written into it. I also think if this wasn't an election year, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal. It would pass relatively unnoticed just like the bailout the gov't did for the airlines, and however many they have done for the auto industry, etc. David

I know I'm way late on posting to this thread but I'm amazed that that is your first saddle. Building saddles is my ultimate goal but I"m a long way from that right now. However, I have thought of redoing my current saddle with the felt padding instead of shearling so I'm curious about how that felt is working out for you? I also noticed on this thread that your saddle was featured on another site/forum during the construction and I wonder if you have a link to that so that we could all see how it went together? As far as how good a job you did on this saddle, if it were for sale I'd buy it. First saddle or hundreth I think it's beautiful. David