Strong Belt Loop Attachment?

[MtlBiker]

I've made a little belt pouch for my SECRID metal credit card holder.  I've made a couple of them actually, getting better and better at molding the leather, stitching, dyeing, etc.  They have a leather belt loop that I've used double cap rivets to hold in place, and I've hammered them down (especially on the inside) so that when I insert the SECRID it doesn't catch on the rivets.  I've been pretty pleased with what I've done, until....

I almost lost the whole pouch and SECRID with my credit cards!  I wear the pouch on my belt (duh) and it often snags on something in my workshop or even getting in and out of the car.  Today the top two rivets broke away so the belt loop was loose and just flapping.  Good thing I noticed as I might have lost my drivers license and credit cards.  So I'm looking for advice to make a stronger, better belt loop.

What's the best way to attach a leather belt loop to a pouch so that it's super secure?

I see three options:

1) Continue using the rivets as I've been doing and maybe not hammer them down quite as flat, and certainly pay more attention to avoid snagging it on something.

2) Stitch the top and bottom attachment of the belt loop (I'm getting better at stitching!).

3) Use both rivets AND stitching, which I see as being the most secure but the most effort/time to make.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Bert03241]

I stitch all my belt loops and double stitch the stress points

[Handstitched]

Another option, when I make loops, I cut them the  same  as I would with a belt tip cutter, just makes them a bit neater. Mine are  either machine stitched or hand stitched top & bottom . 

With rivets, they will 'tarnish' over time, and may cause staining on clothing?

HS

[Brokenolmarine]

I have box stitched all mine, but Glue them first with Contact Cement.  None have given up the ghost yet.  Not that I have made that many.  However, my daughter has worn one knife sheath for nearly three years, still going strong.

I also took a tip from a British leather worker whose holster and sheath videos I watched a lot of... after stitching the loop, I turn the leather over and put a thin layer of cement over the stitches inside the holster or sheath.  Won't be seen ever again, but protects the stitches from whatever slides over them, and protects what is sliding over them.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Brokenolmarine

[tsunkasapa]

+1 for stitching loops.

[RockyAussie]

  On 5/26/2022 at 11:10 PM, MtlBiker said:

What's the best way to attach a leather belt loop to a pouch so that it's super secure?

I see three options:

1) Continue using the rivets as I've been doing and maybe not hammer them down quite as flat, and certainly pay more attention to avoid snagging it on something.

2) Stitch the top and bottom attachment of the belt loop (I'm getting better at stitching!).

3) Use both rivets AND stitching, which I see as being the most secure but the most effort/time to make.

What are your thoughts?

Expand  

Option 4......Put a piece right across to the sides with 2 slots down the middle of it. This has the labour advantage of not having to add any extra stitching at all and the pouch can hang vertical or horizontally. If used vertically the 2 slots will form out nicely with a little use and be easy to thread the belt through. Here is a picture of one that has not formed to the belt yet but will show what I mean

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by RockyAussie

[fredk]

+ 1 for stitching

But when I use rivets I use Al Stohlman's method; cut a slot in the project, feed the loop part into the project and rivet. 

[MtlBiker]

Looks like all the votes are for stitching the belt loop rather than using rivets.  I'll give that a try on the next pouch I make this weekend.  Thanks for all the comments.

  On 5/27/2022 at 2:40 AM, Handstitched said:

Another option, when I make loops, I cut them the  same  as I would with a belt tip cutter, just makes them a bit neater. Mine are  either machine stitched or hand stitched top & bottom .

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I'm not quite sure what you mean.  And when you wear the pouch, the belt loop doesn't even show. 

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:50 AM, Brokenolmarine said:

I have box stitched all mine, but Glue them first with Contact Cement.  None have given up the ghost yet.  Not that I have made that many.  However, my daughter has worn one knife sheath for nearly three years, still going strong.

I also took a tip from a British leather worker whose holster and sheath videos I watched a lot of... after stitching the loop, I turn the leather over and put a thin layer of cement over the stitches inside the holster or sheath.  Won't be seen ever again, but protects the stitches from whatever slides over them, and protects what is sliding over them.

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I'll try adding glue on my next pouch.  And for protecting the stitches on the inside, is it just a layer of contact cement you put on them?  I haven't stitched my belt loops yet but I'd imagine that proper stitches, hammered down afterwards would be pretty much recessed and not prone to getting damaged.

  On 5/27/2022 at 6:56 AM, RockyAussie said:

Put a piece right across to the sides with 2 slots down the middle of it.

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This idea doesn't sit well with me.  (Of course, not having actually tried it.)  If I understand correctly, you then end up having to stitch through 3 layers along the edge rather than just two, plus you seem to have the top edge of that extra piece kinda open and just sitting there.  Looks wise I don't care for that too much.  Maybe I should just give it a try though.

  On 5/27/2022 at 11:52 AM, fredk said:

But when I use rivets I use Al Stohlman's method; cut a slot in the project, feed the loop part into the project and rivet.

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I can see doing that with the top part of the loop, but not the bottom.  There wouldn't be any room to get my press in there to close the bottom rivets unless they were exposed as in my photo.  Putting the top part of the loop in through a slot and then riveting it would make it stronger?

 

[fredk]

  On 5/27/2022 at 12:33 PM, MtlBiker said:

I can see doing that with the top part of the loop, but not the bottom.  There wouldn't be any room to get my press in there to close the bottom rivets unless they were exposed as in my photo.  Putting the top part of the loop in through a slot and then riveting it would make it stronger?

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a. I have various widths/lengths of 6mm thick flat steel bar. I clamp one of these to a work bench and slip the project over it. The bar is the anvil then I set the rivet, with or without a setter bar. You are doing the rivets the same way, just the strap comes through a slot from the inside [or goes into the inside]

b. According to Al, his method spreads the load on the rivet head and the leather.

I have a belt pouch I made over 20 years ago. When I made it, according to the instructions, with the belt straps just riveted on the outside, the rivets were pulling out of the main pouch. About every 4 to 6 weeks. A real bummer to replace the rivets as I had lined the pouch so it had to be taken apart, rivets replaced and it all sewn up again. Then I discovered Al's method. I redid the belt straps his way and I've not had to re-do the rivets since

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/27/2022 at 12:54 PM, fredk said:

a. I have various widths/lengths of 6mm thick flat steel bar. I clamp one of these to a work bench and slip the project over it. The bar is the anvil then I set the rivet, with or without a setter bar. You are doing the rivets the same way, just the strap comes through a slot from the inside [or goes into the inside]

b. According to Al, his method spreads the load on the rivet head and the leather.

I have a belt pouch I made over 20 years ago. When I made it, according to the instructions, with the belt straps just riveted on the outside, the rivets were pulling out of the main pouch. About every 4 to 6 weeks. A real bummer to replace the rivets as I had lined the pouch so it had to be taken apart, rivets replaced and it all sewn up again. Then I discovered Al's method. I redid the belt straps his way and I've not had to re-do the rivets since

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I'll have to look this up in Al's book (I have 4 of them).  I'm hesitant because I don't really know how to cut neat slots in leather (haven't learned that yet).  So the idea is to cut two slots into the back of the pouch and then feed the belt loop strip into the slots... then which way do you place the part of the loop that's inside?  Do you leave them both in line with the loop or do you bend them back towards the middle?  Putting the ends of the loop inside the pouch means there will be a ridge (from the loop) on the inside and when I slip my little metal SECRID in, it would probably bump up against the ridge making it harder to insert plus adding pressure on the end/edge of the loop. 

I think what I'm going to try this weekend on my next pouch is to first of all use some glue and then to stitch the loop (with the loop not going through any slots) in place.  I might even add a rivet.  Surely that would be stronger than just the rivets alone as I've been doing.

With the pouch you were talking about, where the rivets would fail often, I guess you had used rivets only, without any stitching?

 

[Brokenolmarine]

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Posted 55 minutes ago

Looks like all the votes are for stitching the belt loop rather than using rivets.  I'll give that a try on the next pouch I make this weekend.  Thanks for all the comments.

  On 5/27/2022 at 2:40 AM, Handstitched said:

  10 hours ago, Handstitched said:

Another option, when I make loops, I cut them the  same  as I would with a belt tip cutter, just makes them a bit neater. Mine are  either machine stitched or hand stitched top & bottom .

I'm not quite sure what you mean.  And when you wear the pouch, the belt loop doesn't even show. 

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:50 AM, Brokenolmarine said:

  9 hours ago, Brokenolmarine said:

I have box stitched all mine, but Glue them first with Contact Cement.  None have given up the ghost yet.  Not that I have made that many.  However, my daughter has worn one knife sheath for nearly three years, still going strong.

I also took a tip from a British leather worker whose holster and sheath videos I watched a lot of... after stitching the loop, I turn the leather over and put a thin layer of cement over the stitches inside the holster or sheath.  Won't be seen ever again, but protects the stitches from whatever slides over them, and protects what is sliding over them.

I'll try adding glue on my next pouch.  And for protecting the stitches on the inside, is it just a layer of contact cement you put on them?  I haven't stitched my belt loops yet but I'd imagine that proper stitches, hammered down afterwards would be pretty much recessed and not prone to getting damaged.

°°°°  I just use contact cement.  A light coat, levels itself as it dries.  It's a simple step, doesn't take much time, and for knives and guns, if nothing else, will waterproof the stitching.  But, the tip of the knife could dig in.

 

[chuck123wapati]

  On 5/26/2022 at 11:10 PM, MtlBiker said:

I've made a little belt pouch for my SECRID metal credit card holder.  I've made a couple of them actually, getting better and better at molding the leather, stitching, dyeing, etc.  They have a leather belt loop that I've used double cap rivets to hold in place, and I've hammered them down (especially on the inside) so that when I insert the SECRID it doesn't catch on the rivets.  I've been pretty pleased with what I've done, until....

I almost lost the whole pouch and SECRID with my credit cards!  I wear the pouch on my belt (duh) and it often snags on something in my workshop or even getting in and out of the car.  Today the top two rivets broke away so the belt loop was loose and just flapping.  Good thing I noticed as I might have lost my drivers license and credit cards.  So I'm looking for advice to make a stronger, better belt loop.

What's the best way to attach a leather belt loop to a pouch so that it's super secure?

I see three options:

1) Continue using the rivets as I've been doing and maybe not hammer them down quite as flat, and certainly pay more attention to avoid snagging it on something.

2) Stitch the top and bottom attachment of the belt loop (I'm getting better at stitching!).

3) Use both rivets AND stitching, which I see as being the most secure but the most effort/time to make.

What are your thoughts?

 

Expand  

look at this picture , what do you see ? a row of stitches not 2mm from the bottom of the strap!!!  you should have sewn the bottom there, with maybe a second row and sewn the top and been done with it.

This isn't rocket science friend leather straps have been sewn on for thousands of years. any one of the suggestions will work they are from tried and true leather workers with years of experience.

rivets will work in leather for some things but not all things and that is determined by the direction of the load on the rivet. the load has to be on the shank not on the heads if that makes sense. such as two pieces lapped together on a belt pulling from each end as compared to your strap which has the load pulling out against the heads.

Using them as Fred and AL  suggests changes that load factor, the load is attempting to pull the strap then down through the slot not out against the head of the rivet.

[Spyros]

There is no way those rivets were installed properly and they just came off.  I've never seen a double cap rivet that wasn't stronger than the leather and I've had some crappy hollow ones in the past. Even those could only be removed with a drill, never mind the proper solid brass ones. 

Do you have the proper rivet setter and base?  Did you hammer or press it in straight or did the stem maybe bent sideways?  Was the stem the correct length for the thickness of the leather?

Edited May 27, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

  On 5/27/2022 at 12:54 PM, fredk said:

a. I have various widths/lengths of 6mm thick flat steel bar. I clamp one of these to a work bench and slip the project over it. The bar is the anvil then I set the rivet, with or without a setter bar. You are doing the rivets the same way, just the strap comes through a slot from the inside [or goes into the inside]

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Yeah I keep explaining to people that the most important tool for every craft is the surfaces.  Something straight, something to clamp and wedge things on, something to bang on that doesn't rock and doesn't damage your tools.  Bench and bench accessories, that's what makes the most difference.  I also have a collection of steel extrusions and anvils and various shapes and sizes, some permanently screwed on the bench right above the leg for maximum stability.  Its incredible what you can do with the tiniest anvil in the world.  Jeweller's anvils are great.  Those are usually good enough and cheap enough:

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Spyros

[fredk]

  On 5/27/2022 at 1:12 PM, MtlBiker said:

I'll have to look this up in Al's book (I have 4 of them).

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The Art of Making Leather Cases Volume 1 by Al Stohlman, pages 7 & 8

  On 5/27/2022 at 1:12 PM, MtlBiker said:

. . .  I'm hesitant because I don't really know how to cut neat slots in leather (haven't learned that yet). . . . 

Expand  

Just a small selection of my slot punches;

Most useful, especially for the slot for a buckle tongue. If I need a slot longer than one of these I just move it over and hit it again. I've accumulated these over the years. Buying a few now and then. Each cost between £2 and £5 through ebay. But, they are worth their investment. [ I think I need to sharpen some of them, they've been neglected,  ]

 

  On 5/27/2022 at 1:12 PM, MtlBiker said:

. . .  So the idea is to cut two slots into the back of the pouch and then feed the belt loop strip into the slots... then which way do you place the part of the loop that's inside?  Do you leave them both in line with the loop or do you bend them back towards the middle?  . . . 

. . . 

With the pouch you were talking about, where the rivets would fail often, I guess you had used rivets only, without any stitching?

Expand  

A picture; one of the strap loops on my 'EDC' pouch that I made over 20 years ago

Remember, that's over 20 years of irregular use. It got more use this last 2 1/2 years, carrying spare masks, rubber gloves et cetera. It was used a lot from 2000 to 2016 though

  On 5/27/2022 at 1:12 PM, MtlBiker said:

. . .  Putting the ends of the loop inside the pouch means there will be a ridge (from the loop) on the inside and when I slip my little metal SECRID in, it would probably bump up against the ridge making it harder to insert plus adding pressure on the end/edge of the loop. . . . 

Expand  

I skive the edges of the strap but leave the area where the rivet will go thick. I also glue a very thin [ 0.5mm - 1oz, or less] leather over the whole back piece. In the case of my mobile [ cell ] phone holster this extra [ minimal ] thickness helps keep the phone in tightly

 

 

[tsunkasapa]

  On 5/27/2022 at 1:12 PM, MtlBiker said:

I might even add a rivet. 

Expand  

Properly done stitching is far stronger than rivets. As to the 'belt tipper', make the bottom of your loop strap shaped like a belt end, not square. It's mainly an aesthetics thing.

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/27/2022 at 2:17 PM, chuck123wapati said:

look at this picture , what do you see ? a row of stitches not 2mm from the bottom of the strap!!!  you should have sewn the bottom there, with maybe a second row and sewn the top and been done with it.

This isn't rocket science friend leather straps have been sewn on for thousands of years. any one of the suggestions will work they are from tried and true leather workers with years of experience.

rivets will work in leather for some things but not all things and that is determined by the direction of the load on the rivet. the load has to be on the shank not on the heads if that makes sense. such as two pieces lapped together on a belt pulling from each end as compared to your strap which has the load pulling out against the heads.

Using them as Fred and AL  suggests changes that load factor, the load is attempting to pull the strap then down through the slot not out against the head of the rivet.

Expand  

It's not rocket science?  Then why is some of this stuff so difficult for a beginner? 

I will certainly change to stitching instead of rivets for my next pouch, but won't be (yet) doing the slot thing.  With slots (especially the top one) I don't see how to prevent my metal SECRID card holder from snagging on the strap if it's inside the pouch.  What do you suggest to prevent that?  And after experimenting with different length and position of the loop, I'm actually going to move it higher up on the pouch (with the bottom attachment even further from the sewn pouch edge) because I found with the loop too long and/or too low on the pouch, the way it rides on my belt I don't like it.  I'm going to size it for my largest belt size and keep it at the height I feel gives it the best balance and position on my hip.  I'm not trying to make a pouch (yet) for sale or the masses, just a functional one for me with that SECRID holder.  And using the whole thing as a practice and learning experience.

But could you please clarify for me which direction the ends of the loop would go once inserted in slots.  My understanding is that they remain in the same direction as the loop itself and aren't bent back towards the middle.

Thank you (as always!) for your great help.

 

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/27/2022 at 2:32 PM, Spyros said:

There is no way those rivets were installed properly and they just came off.  I've never seen a double cap rivet that wasn't stronger than the leather and I've had some crappy hollow ones in the past. Even those could only be removed with a drill, never mind the proper solid brass ones. 

Do you have the proper rivet setter and base?  Did you hammer or press it in straight or did the stem maybe bent sideways?  Was the stem the correct length for the thickness of the leather?

Expand  

I'm sure you're right.  That's it's my fault the rivets failed.  I use a press from Kamsnaps and the proper dies for the size of rivet.  They probably failed because I had hammered the heads flat after setting them, because I didn't want my SECRID card holder to snag on the rivet when I put it into the pouch.  I probably flattened them too much and that weakened them.  I'm switching to sewing the loop on my next pouch.

Just in case someone doesn't know about the SECRID card holder, it's made of (probably) aluminum and is RFI shielded to protect the cards.  There's a little lever at the top which pops out the cards in a way that it's easy to remove any one you need.  But the bottom edge can easily snag on a rivet or any ridge when inserting it into a pouch.  I've been using it for many years now and really like it.  Just don't like it in my pants pocket.

 

[chuck123wapati]

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:19 PM, MtlBiker said:

It's not rocket science?  Then why is some of this stuff so difficult for a beginner? 

I will certainly change to stitching instead of rivets for my next pouch, but won't be (yet) doing the slot thing.  With slots (especially the top one) I don't see how to prevent my metal SECRID card holder from snagging on the strap if it's inside the pouch.  What do you suggest to prevent that?  And after experimenting with different length and position of the loop, I'm actually going to move it higher up on the pouch (with the bottom attachment even further from the sewn pouch edge) because I found with the loop too long and/or too low on the pouch, the way it rides on my belt I don't like it.  I'm going to size it for my largest belt size and keep it at the height I feel gives it the best balance and position on my hip.  I'm not trying to make a pouch (yet) for sale or the masses, just a functional one for me with that SECRID holder.  And using the whole thing as a practice and learning experience.

But could you please clarify for me which direction the ends of the loop would go once inserted in slots.  My understanding is that they remain in the same direction as the loop itself and aren't bent back towards the middle.

Thank you (as always!) for your great help.

 

Expand  

i suggest sewing it, lose the rivets in this case.

your understanding is correct.

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/27/2022 at 2:55 PM, fredk said:

The Art of Making Leather Cases Volume 1 by Al Stohlman, pages 7 & 8

Just a small selection of my slot punches;

Most useful, especially for the slot for a buckle tongue. If I need a slot longer than one of these I just move it over and hit it again. I've accumulated these over the years. Buying a few now and then. Each cost between £2 and £5 through ebay. But, they are worth their investment. [ I think I need to sharpen some of them, they've been neglected,  ]

 

A picture; one of the strap loops on my 'EDC' pouch that I made over 20 years ago

Remember, that's over 20 years of irregular use. It got more use this last 2 1/2 years, carrying spare masks, rubber gloves et cetera. It was used a lot from 2000 to 2016 though

I skive the edges of the strap but leave the area where the rivet will go thick. I also glue a very thin [ 0.5mm - 1oz, or less] leather over the whole back piece. In the case of my mobile [ cell ] phone holster this extra [ minimal ] thickness helps keep the phone in tightly

 

 

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Fred, once again you've given me terrific help!  Thank you!  Now it's clear what you were talking about and I'll also check out Al's information.    So, in your case you used only a rivet and no stitching, right?

Oh no!  MORE stuff to buy!  (Slot punches.)

 

[fredk]

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:19 PM, MtlBiker said:

. . .

But could you please clarify for me which direction the ends of the loop would go once inserted in slots.  My understanding is that they remain in the same direction as the loop itself and aren't bent back towards the middle. . . .

Expand  

Same direction as the rest of the strap,  

A quick sketch; 

That how I do them

However, sewing is by far better, and I'll stick my neck out and say, saddle stitching is the best.

When I was in that medieval thingy I had plenty of sewn strap loops to repair. They'd been sewn on with a sewing machine and when the thread broke all the stitching came away. We once had a very dangerous incident when one of the guys was in the middle of a sword fight demo and the stitching on the belt loop of his dagger sheath gave way, allowing it to fall to his feet, tripping him up just as his opponent was swinging a sword at him. Fortunately the opponent was able to to pull and redirect the blow. The belt loop had been sewn on with a sewing machine. We then went through all the equipment and I re-stitched everything that had been machine sewn

[battlemunky]

I saw a video on YT a few years ago that showed pull tests between double capped /ez rivets, bit/burr rivets, and stitching. Done correctly, bit/burr is super strong, stitching is too, and I only use double cap and/or ez rivets for decoration because they can pull apart surprisingly easy. I'll try to find the video and post it if I do.

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:51 PM, fredk said:

Same direction as the rest of the strap,  

A quick sketch; 

That how I do them

However, sewing is by far better, and I'll stick my neck out and say, saddle stitching is the best.

When I was in that medieval thingy I had plenty of sewn strap loops to repair. They'd been sewn on with a sewing machine and when the thread broke all the stitching came away. We once had a very dangerous incident when one of the guys was in the middle of a sword fight demo and the stitching on the belt loop of his dagger sheath gave way, allowing it to fall to his feet, tripping him up just as his opponent was swinging a sword at him. Fortunately the opponent was able to to pull and redirect the blow. The belt loop had been sewn on with a sewing machine. We then went through all the equipment and I re-stitched everything that had been machine sewn

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Thanks (again) very much, Fred!  Your prior post with the photos clarified what you were doing with the loop and slots, and your drawing now confirmed it all.

My intention with these pouches is certainly to hand stitch everything, saddle stitching.  I save my machine stitching for bags and purses.  As I said, this little belt pouch is only for me, one, because I can use it, and two, as something to practice my leather working with.  I need practice with dyeing, protecting, molding, cutting and certainly hand stitching.  This is a perfect little project for all of that.

  On 5/27/2022 at 4:07 PM, battlemunky said:

I saw a video on YT a few years ago that showed pull tests between double capped /ez rivets, bit/burr rivets, and stitching. Done correctly, bit/burr is super strong, stitching is too, and I only use double cap and/or ez rivets for decoration because they can pull apart surprisingly easy. I'll try to find the video and post it if I do.

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Thank you.  I hadn't heard of "bit/burr" rivets.  But in any case, my next attempt with this pouch will use saddle stitching on the belt loop.  (And the rest of the pouch.)

 

[Hardrada]

Use copper/brass rivets. The leather will tear before those come apart.

I too would also stitch the loop and reinforce with a rivet on each end. Place the flat end of the rivet inside so that it doesn't scratch the contents—better yet, line the pouch.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Hardrada

[RockyAussie]

  On 5/27/2022 at 12:33 PM, MtlBiker said:

This idea doesn't sit well with me.  (Of course, not having actually tried it.)  If I understand correctly, you then end up having to stitch through 3 layers along the edge rather than just two, plus you seem to have the top edge of that extra piece kinda open and just sitting there.  Looks wise I don't care for that too much.  Maybe I should just give it a try though.

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The top and bottom have to be open if the wearer prefers to wear it in line with the belt horizontally. They have to be open just enough for a belt to be pushed through. If worn vertically in the direction you have your strap attached then the 2 slits allow you to feed the belt through that way. In wear this method will not hang out as much as the folded over strap does at the top as in how you have yours at present. Yes it means 3 layers to be stitched and I would have thought that would not be a problem with your machine but as you say maybe you should just give it a go. Another view in case it helps - Ignore the crappy stitching, one of my staff asked me to make it up 1/2hour before his finish time and I did not even have a mould to start with.