MtlBiker Report post Posted June 4, 2022 As you know, I'm quite new to hand-stitching leather and while I've been improving, all the items I've made so far have been quite small. Even so, it's been a bit awkward for me to manage the length of thread I need. (Two needle Saddle stitching.) How do you manage long stitching runs? Like when doing a belt for example? Do you break the stitching into small sections and lock the thread and then start again? Surely you don't pull enough thread to go around the whole belt, and probably not even enough to do just one side of the belt. I'm planning on making some bag straps where the entire stitching will be visible and the straps are each going to be close to 30" long. That's 60"+ to go all around and using the often stated guide of 4 to 6 times the length, I'd need my thread to be at least 20 FEET long! (That's 4 times.) If I used 6 times, it would be crazy long, not that 20 feet isn't crazy enough. (I'm almost tempted to use my sewing machine for this instead of hand-stitching. ) So what advice do you folks have? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsunkasapa Report post Posted June 4, 2022 I pull off what I can span with my arms spread wide. When I run out, I start the new thread back about 3-4 stitches. When I am 3-4 stitches past the old thread I pull them tight and trim them. I have watched video of people trying to do it all with one thread. It's a waste of time. Sometimes, if I KNOW it will only take a little more than that, I will just pull the extra through the eyes and let it out a bit further into the stitching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mulesaw Report post Posted June 4, 2022 What Tsunasapa said. If you take too long a piece of thread, I have found that the thread often gets sort of worn from abrasion after having passed through a lot of holes. Sometimes you can counter it by reapplying beeswax, but not much is gained by it in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 4, 2022 ditto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frodo Report post Posted June 4, 2022 a tip for long runs, do every stitch the exact same way. if not it iwill stand out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted June 4, 2022 I've made a few gunbelts, both ranger and tapered, with stitching all around the edges and I've always used one piece. Guess I must be a bit thick? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GatoGordo Report post Posted June 5, 2022 Once I sewed a belt using one length of thread. It is nice to know that I can do it, but I will never do it again. Now, I sew like tsunkasapa describes, only I start out with two fathoms of thread. Unless I really look for it I do not notice where the threads overlap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billybopp Report post Posted June 5, 2022 I prefer to go with a single length of thread in most cases. I don't like the look of overlapping stitches when you switch threads. It is a bit of a pain in early parts of the run as the thread is easily tangled, but you learn to manage this and it becomes easier. I use woven polyester thread - which is a consideration. Some things to consider: As @mulesaw mentioned above, some threads can fray out as you sew long runs - particularly linens. Even woven polyester will fray a little but, but usually only in the first six inches or so. If you are using a light colored thread with colored leather it can pick up dye from the leather and look dingy, but as with above it tends to be more of a problem with linen thread, less so with polyester although again the first few inches near the needles can discolor. As mentioned above, thread can get tangled more easily with longer lengths but you do learn to adapt to prevent that. The thread might still occasionally get knotted, so just keep an eye open for them. Lesson learned the hard way - it's FAR easier to remove a knot if you catch it before you sew it into the run and have to pull out a few stitches back to unknot the thread! LOL - Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnydb Report post Posted June 5, 2022 Hand stitching is much much sturdier than machine stitching....if one day a stitch breaks from wear the thing doesn't come apart on you. It's just a broken stitch. As such I don't do a lot of overlapping stitches when hand sewing and usually tie them off on the backside when I have to. Might even start exactly where I left off too...depending on the item and expected wear and visibility. Don't put a start/stop point on a end piece of a strap....plan it for a foot back. Also avoid the shoulder area where it might get felt by the hand. And yeah...a stitching horse helps with the 6 foot long threads. (It's as far as my arms extend) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Matt S Report post Posted June 5, 2022 As others have said, having more than a fathom of thread "in hand" at any one time leads to increased issues with tangling, unravelling, having to rewax the thread periodically, fraying and discolouration. I've done it, it's doable, but not my preferred way of working. Doubled-up stitches at changeover isn't hugely noticeable IMHO, are "honest" artefacts of how the item was manufactured, and it's often possible to hide them. On shorter belts it's also possible to start at the point of the belt with /two/ fathoms of thread. Pierce the centre hole and pull both threads through so they're crossing over equally, then start sewing down one side of the belt with the ends of opposite threads. Once you've reached the end start again at the point with the second pair of ends and sew towards the buckle. Of course this requires being able to sew equally neatly both towards and away from you. 2 hours ago, johnnydb said: Hand stitching is much much sturdier than machine stitching....if one day a stitch breaks from wear the thing doesn't come apart on you. It's just a broken stitch. I've been hearing this a long time. Ron Edwards touches on how the idea probably became common, with saddlers directly comparing seams machined with skinny, slippery, stretchy synthetic thread (for light articles, rugs etc.) against chunky linen saddle- or back-stitched seams (for heavy and working articles) in the second half of the 20th century. I suspect also there's some mixup between lock-stitched seams and chain-stitched (which definitely do just "zip up" when you pull the right thread). Without meaning to sound rude or confrontational, how much experience do you have with threads broken on stitched leather articles? I ask as I used to believe the same thing. Now, with the experience of examining hundreds of such broken threads (through accident, wear or deliberate cutting) I can tell you it doesn't work like that. It is my experience (through direct study and asking the experience of professional leather tradespeople) that a "correctly" saddle stitched seam sewn in a decent thread with a grabby/hardening coad (not bloody beeswax or candle wax) /might/ be stronger than a lock-stitched seam... but I see precious little of that being done these days! For almost all practical purposes, when compared apples-for-apples, lock-stitch machine sewing is at least just as strong and durable as imperfectly sewn saddle stitching. I've handled plenty of items where one or more threads has been cut by wear or accident. Some (like the shaft tugs which hang above my desk) have the surface portions of both threads entirely worn away, yet are still solid. Similarly I've had to pick out plenty of machine-sewn work, that simply had to be cut and pulled out one or two stitches at a time -- same as saddle stitched. Others, saddle stitched even 100+years ago in linen thread, will disappear as soon as one of the stitches parts ways. The real difference in "staying power" in these cases is from tight holes (just big enough to admit the threads before they close back up, which is best achieved with a sharp awl immediately before each stitch, or failing that the smallest leather-point machine needle that will work), tight stitches, thread (preferably linen) saturated with proper drying stickywax (hardball or polymerising liquid), and a design that minimises reliance just on the thread to hold the thing together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Matt S said: As others have said, having more than a fathom of thread "in hand" at any one time leads to increased issues with tangling, unravelling, having to rewax the thread periodically, fraying and discolouration. I've done it, it's doable, but not my preferred way of working. Doubled-up stitches at changeover isn't hugely noticeable IMHO, are "honest" artefacts of how the item was manufactured, and it's often possible to hide them. On shorter belts it's also possible to start at the point of the belt with /two/ fathoms of thread. Pierce the centre hole and pull both threads through so they're crossing over equally, then start sewing down one side of the belt with the ends of opposite threads. Once you've reached the end start again at the point with the second pair of ends and sew towards the buckle. Of course this requires being able to sew equally neatly both towards and away from you. I've been hearing this a long time. Ron Edwards touches on how the idea probably became common, with saddlers directly comparing seams machined with skinny, slippery, stretchy synthetic thread (for light articles, rugs etc.) against chunky linen saddle- or back-stitched seams (for heavy and working articles) in the second half of the 20th century. I suspect also there's some mixup between lock-stitched seams and chain-stitched (which definitely do just "zip up" when you pull the right thread). Without meaning to sound rude or confrontational, how much experience do you have with threads broken on stitched leather articles? I ask as I used to believe the same thing. Now, with the experience of examining hundreds of such broken threads (through accident, wear or deliberate cutting) I can tell you it doesn't work like that. It is my experience (through direct study and asking the experience of professional leather tradespeople) that a "correctly" saddle stitched seam sewn in a decent thread with a grabby/hardening coad (not bloody beeswax or candle wax) /might/ be stronger than a lock-stitched seam... but I see precious little of that being done these days! For almost all practical purposes, when compared apples-for-apples, lock-stitch machine sewing is at least just as strong and durable as imperfectly sewn saddle stitching. I've handled plenty of items where one or more threads has been cut by wear or accident. Some (like the shaft tugs which hang above my desk) have the surface portions of both threads entirely worn away, yet are still solid. Similarly I've had to pick out plenty of machine-sewn work, that simply had to be cut and pulled out one or two stitches at a time -- same as saddle stitched. Others, saddle stitched even 100+years ago in linen thread, will disappear as soon as one of the stitches parts ways. The real difference in "staying power" in these cases is from tight holes (just big enough to admit the threads before they close back up, which is best achieved with a sharp awl immediately before each stitch, or failing that the smallest leather-point machine needle that will work), tight stitches, thread (preferably linen) saturated with proper drying stickywax (hardball or polymerising liquid), and a design that minimises reliance just on the thread to hold the thing together. Very interesting I have to agree and add a lot of the damaged stitching i have repaired has been mainly due to rot or fatigue from stretching bending etc. Neither stitch method would matter those cases either. i have never seen a test but I'm sure some have been done on the actual strength of the stitch method itself. Safety companies here have tested stitching on load bearing equipment but i don't know what kind of stitch was ever tested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handstitched Report post Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 3:39 AM, tsunkasapa said: I pull off what I can span with my arms spread wide. Thats what I do on long runs, and go back a few stitches with the new thread, simple Once finished, I gently burn the ends of the thread, go over the stitches with a spacing/ stitching wheel. You can barely see where the join is. HS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnydb Report post Posted June 6, 2022 16 hours ago, Matt S said: As others have said, having more than a fathom of thread "in hand" at any one time leads to increased issues with tangling, unravelling, having to rewax the thread periodically, fraying and discolouration. I've done it, it's doable, but not my preferred way of working. Doubled-up stitches at changeover isn't hugely noticeable IMHO, are "honest" artefacts of how the item was manufactured, and it's often possible to hide them. On shorter belts it's also possible to start at the point of the belt with /two/ fathoms of thread. Pierce the centre hole and pull both threads through so they're crossing over equally, then start sewing down one side of the belt with the ends of opposite threads. Once you've reached the end start again at the point with the second pair of ends and sew towards the buckle. Of course this requires being able to sew equally neatly both towards and away from you. I've been hearing this a long time. Ron Edwards touches on how the idea probably became common, with saddlers directly comparing seams machined with skinny, slippery, stretchy synthetic thread (for light articles, rugs etc.) against chunky linen saddle- or back-stitched seams (for heavy and working articles) in the second half of the 20th century. I suspect also there's some mixup between lock-stitched seams and chain-stitched (which definitely do just "zip up" when you pull the right thread). Without meaning to sound rude or confrontational, how much experience do you have with threads broken on stitched leather articles? I ask as I used to believe the same thing. Now, with the experience of examining hundreds of such broken threads (through accident, wear or deliberate cutting) I can tell you it doesn't work like that. It is my experience (through direct study and asking the experience of professional leather tradespeople) that a "correctly" saddle stitched seam sewn in a decent thread with a grabby/hardening coad (not bloody beeswax or candle wax) /might/ be stronger than a lock-stitched seam... but I see precious little of that being done these days! For almost all practical purposes, when compared apples-for-apples, lock-stitch machine sewing is at least just as strong and durable as imperfectly sewn saddle stitching. I've handled plenty of items where one or more threads has been cut by wear or accident. Some (like the shaft tugs which hang above my desk) have the surface portions of both threads entirely worn away, yet are still solid. Similarly I've had to pick out plenty of machine-sewn work, that simply had to be cut and pulled out one or two stitches at a time -- same as saddle stitched. Others, saddle stitched even 100+years ago in linen thread, will disappear as soon as one of the stitches parts ways. The real difference in "staying power" in these cases is from tight holes (just big enough to admit the threads before they close back up, which is best achieved with a sharp awl immediately before each stitch, or failing that the smallest leather-point machine needle that will work), tight stitches, thread (preferably linen) saturated with proper drying stickywax (hardball or polymerising liquid), and a design that minimises reliance just on the thread to hold the thing together. On my tool bag I have some broken stitches right in the middle of a seam. (Too many construction sites where my bag takes abuse) And unless you look...you can't find them. But as you say it's just heavy wear and abuse that caused the stitches to break. But the bag is holding up great. I've seen plenty of leather tool pouches not hold up so well when the stitching begins to fail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites