Customized Handguns, Tactical Lights, Etc. Reality Rears Its Ugly Head Again.

[Lobo]

Just received another inquiry (I receive a couple every week) from a gentleman who owns a 1911 pistol with Dawson rail attached, with Surefire X300 tactical light attachment, wanting a IWB-style holster made. The following is my reply.

_________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for your interest.

I offer 11 holster designs, with or without 4 common options, in 4 finish colors, left-hand and right-hand, for 139 different handguns, resulting in over 60,000 possible variations and more than 10,000 patterns in file for regular use. I still receive requests for others almost daily.

Assuming that holsters for handguns with tactical lights attached were remotely practical, and assuming that I selected only a dozen or so of the currently available tactical lights to acquire and use for patterning and forming holsters, I would then be up to around 700,000 possible variations and around 100,000 patterns in file (each of which takes a couple of hours work to generate, so about 100 years of working 40 hours per week on the patterns before a holster could be produced). Even then, the "new and improved" versions that are announced just about every week would render everything else obsolete and start the whole process over again.

Life was so much more simple 40 years ago when I took my first holster order. Half a dozen handgun manufacturers, each offering half a dozen handgun models. Now there are dozens of makers, each offering dozens of models, and new variations being announced every week. Just keeping up with the GUNS available could take a couple of people working full time every day. Adding in all the aftermarket accessories would push the possible variations into the millions.

Almost all holster making is done using "dummy guns", cast replicas of the originals usually so accurate that the serial numbers can be read. Dummies are usually available only for current production handguns that have achieved a significant market share. Newly introduced handguns are almost never available as dummies until they have been on the market for a year or so. Most handgun models are never offered as dummies because the market is so small.

Unfortunately, those who choose to acquire the "newest and latest thing" will usually find nothing available in holsters for a long time. Those who customize their weapons, or add aftermarket accessories, will always find it impossible to purchase a production holster. The only possible alternative is to make your handgun available for patterning and fitting a holster by a custom maker. This work involves multiple hours in patterning, prototype production and testing, adjusting the pattern, producing additional prototypes, etc, before the final result can be produced. Very few folks are willing to pay for the time involved. Even those who are will find that the various federal, state, and local laws pertaining to firearms transfers can make it difficult, expensive, and risky to move forward on such a process.

The best advice I can offer is to locate a holster maker within your state of residence, as close as possible to your home, then open up your checkbook and be ready to pay several times the price of any production holster to have what you want created.

_______________________________________________________________________

I'm saving this one for replies to the next couple of hundred folks with the same idea in mind.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Lobo

[katsass]

VERY well said Ray. Mike

[TwinOaks]

Ray, that has got to be one of the best worded refusals I've ever read.

[Mike Craw]

Hey Lobo!

I think you obviously thought long and hard before you carefully worded your reply. It was a lot classier than mine would have been!! One grumpy old guy already responded, and as an equally grumpy old cop I second his thoughts. After almost 40 years of carrying a firearm in the line of duty, and 30 years of making leather gear for my own use and the use of those guys and gals who chose my stuff to carry when they went in harm's way, I find myself shaking my head at some of what passes for conventional wisdom these days.

It seems like some folks are spending all their time dreaming up gadgets and gun writers haven't seen one yet that they didn't absolutely love and think you ought to buy! When semi-autos first came on the scene, one "old" firearms instructor I worked with (even older than I was) used to tell the youngsters who showed up at the range with them, "Well, I guess if you can't hit anything with the first six, ten or twelve is probably a good idea..." Obviously, as firepower bacame a greater issue, the transition was inevitable, but things are getting a little crazy.

I'm sure your customer can't understand how you could turn down such a reasonable request, since he seem to think he can carry a 1911 with a search light INSIDE the waistband without looking like he's smuggling grapefruit!

I think you crafted a very professional and straightforward response, and you absolutely should save it for future use, because I'm sure you will need it again.

Mike

[shadowryder]

tell him to put the "torch" in his pocket Yeah,,

[immiketoo]

That was an impressive piece of refusal sir. I carry a weaponlight ON duty, not off. I can't imagine a scenario where a ccw holster NEEDs a light.

[chiefjason]

Nice! The vast majority of my refusals are either odd guns with no molds or accessories. With accessories I generally ask the customer to get me accurate measurements of the accessory. From their I can occasionally work something out without the actually light/laser/etc. I'm also doing most of this in kydex which is easier and more forgiving IMO. Leather would seriously complicate the process. And none of the manufacturers list any real measurements to work from. I figure if the customer is willing to get me the measurements they are serious enough about it for me to proceed. Then, once I have my mocked up accessory I keep it with the blue gun to use later. I built a Lasermax laser for an LC9 last week out of scrap leather and it worked great. But then again, I'm the kind of holster maker you are referring this guy too. Someone who is willing to do all that extra work for a sale.

[dickf]

Just received another inquiry (I receive a couple every week) from a gentleman who owns a 1911 pistol with Dawson rail attached, with Surefire X300 tactical light attachment, wanting a IWB-style holster made. The following is my reply.

_________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for your interest.

I offer 11 holster designs, with or without 4 common options, in 4 finish colors, left-hand and right-hand, for 139 different handguns, resulting in over 60,000 possible variations and more than 10,000 patterns in file for regular use. I still receive requests for others almost daily.

Assuming that holsters for handguns with tactical lights attached were remotely practical, and assuming that I selected only a dozen or so of the currently available tactical lights to acquire and use for patterning and forming holsters, I would then be up to around 700,000 possible variations and around 100,000 patterns in file (each of which takes a couple of hours work to generate, so about 100 years of working 40 hours per week on the patterns before a holster could be produced). Even then, the "new and improved" versions that are announced just about every week would render everything else obsolete and start the whole process over again.

Life was so much more simple 40 years ago when I took my first holster order. Half a dozen handgun manufacturers, each offering half a dozen handgun models. Now there are dozens of makers, each offering dozens of models, and new variations being announced every week. Just keeping up with the GUNS available could take a couple of people working full time every day. Adding in all the aftermarket accessories would push the possible variations into the millions.

Almost all holster making is done using "dummy guns", cast replicas of the originals usually so accurate that the serial numbers can be read. Dummies are usually available only for current production handguns that have achieved a significant market share. Newly introduced handguns are almost never available as dummies until they have been on the market for a year or so. Most handgun models are never offered as dummies because the market is so small.

Unfortunately, those who choose to acquire the "newest and latest thing" will usually find nothing available in holsters for a long time. Those who customize their weapons, or add aftermarket accessories, will always find it impossible to purchase a production holster. The only possible alternative is to make your handgun available for patterning and fitting a holster by a custom maker. This work involves multiple hours in patterning, prototype production and testing, adjusting the pattern, producing additional prototypes, etc, before the final result can be produced. Very few folks are willing to pay for the time involved. Even those who are will find that the various federal, state, and local laws pertaining to firearms transfers can make it difficult, expensive, and risky to move forward on such a process.

The best advice I can offer is to locate a holster maker within your state of residence, as close as possible to your home, then open up your checkbook and be ready to pay several times the price of any production holster to have what you want created.

_______________________________________________________________________

I'm saving this one for replies to the next couple of hundred folks with the same idea in mind.

I'd like to see 10k patterns all spread out!

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear. Some folks have special needs for special jobs. You may have been a LEO and holstermaker for 25+ years, but your end-user/customer could be someone who significantly outranks you when it comes to tour of duty and/or being dropped in the shit. A copy/paste reply is like pressing 1 for English and then 2 for customer service. If you're a custom maker, you MUST talk to your customers and get all the details. You never know who you're dealing with, and they very well could know much more than you think. If you don't feel like you can make the holster they want and make it up to your standards, then say so and move on. Insulting their knowledge because you're not the right maker isn't necessary.

Just my $.02

[Russ]

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear.

Before this reply, I was afraid I was going to be a jerk disagreeing with the majority here. I agree with dickf, I think this refusal letter is a little overdone. I got to the point that I was skipping the lecture and looking at the final sentence to see what the end result was....I'm positive I would never send this to a customer unless I wanted a lot of bad word-of-mouth.

[K-Man]

I'd like to see 10k patterns all spread out!

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear. Some folks have special needs for special jobs. You may have been a LEO and holstermaker for 25+ years, but your end-user/customer could be someone who significantly outranks you when it comes to tour of duty and/or being dropped in the shit. A copy/paste reply is like pressing 1 for English and then 2 for customer service. If you're a custom maker, you MUST talk to your customers and get all the details. You never know who you're dealing with, and they very well could know much more than you think. If you don't feel like you can make the holster they want and make it up to your standards, then say so and move on. Insulting their knowledge because you're not the right maker isn't necessary.

Just my $.02

+1

I learned early on to listen to what the customer is looking for. A condescending reponse to a potential customer that you're unable to, or do not desire to, help does nothing more than show one's arrogance and does not justify the need for a diatribe IMO.

Edited November 18, 2012 by K-Man

[Mark Garrity]

I'm a grumpy old cop too, but I would have no problem accomodating him. Send him my way if you want.

[Sixer]

I'd like to see 10k patterns all spread out!

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear. Some folks have special needs for special jobs. You may have been a LEO and holstermaker for 25+ years, but your end-user/customer could be someone who significantly outranks you when it comes to tour of duty and/or being dropped in the shit. A copy/paste reply is like pressing 1 for English and then 2 for customer service. If you're a custom maker, you MUST talk to your customers and get all the details. You never know who you're dealing with, and they very well could know much more than you think. If you don't feel like you can make the holster they want and make it up to your standards, then say so and move on. Insulting their knowledge because you're not the right maker isn't necessary.

Just my $.02

Couldn't agree more... and who know's how much time you wasted telling the guy "no". Don't expect him to call you when he needs a "regular" holster and don't expect any positive reccommendations to his friends or whoever else he may know.

I do my best to treat each customer like I would a friend, or how I would expect to be treated myself... even when declining business. It doesn't always work out that way, but at least I try. I would say that you take your "rejection letter" and delete it forever. Copying and pasting that would be a mistake IMHO.

[Lobo]

Well, we have gotten some discussion going on, and that is a good thing.

I've been doing this little business for just over 40 years. Most of what I post here anymore has more to do with the quirks to be expected in this business than it has to do with specifics of holster design or making, and I frequently bring up things that cause alarm bells to ring for me in hopes of alerting others about what to be careful of.

For those who think I am a rude, arrogant, obnoxious, inconsiderate old man I will offer a few thoughts:

1. When you Google your business trade name and come up with 150,000 hits, let's talk again.

2. When your website consistently draws 5,000-plus hits every week, let's talk again.

3. When you are producing over 2,000 completed orders every year, let's talk again.

4. When you have repeat customers in all 50 US states and 29 foreign countries, let's talk again.

5. When you think for a single moment "The customer is always right", let's talk again.

6. When the e-mail traffic from your website requires 4 or 5 hours every day to read and respond to, let's talk again.

7. When you have committed to production of a project for a customer who knows more about your business than you will ever learn, let's talk again.

8. When your customer takes delivery of his "dream holster", completed to his exact specifications, and realizes that there is no way in the world that it can ever function in the way he thought/knew/dreamed that it would, and is blaming your lousy execution for ruining his sublime inspiration, let's talk again.

A formed leather IWB-style holster for a pistol having a slide width of 7/8", a frame width of 5/8", with a dust-cover mounted rail over 1" wide holding a tactical light 3-plus inches long with a bezel diameter of about 1-1/4", cannot possibly work; nothing involved in the equation passes the barest minimum test of common sense. Mr. Customer may conceive of it as the "PERFECT HOLSTER", and Mr. Holster Maker may commit to making it for him, but the only possible outcome is a disappointed Mr. Customer who will always remember that Mr. Holster Maker failed miserably, but will never conclude that his concept was the least bit flawed.

Go your own ways, boys and girls. Learn from the experiences of others if you can, otherwise be prepared for the school of hard knocks for all of your lessons.

Best regards.

[Sixer]

There are many ways to measure success. Being good at leatherwork is neat and all... but some things are more important. 40 years from know, I can only hope that I feel the same way

[Mark Garrity]

I'm not just blowing smoke when I said send him to me, not to use him as a guinea pig and give it a try or experiment, but because i've been working with this concept for the past few years. The original prototype of the below holsters was made for an operator friend, who ran it and tested it in the harshest of environments for over a year. After finding no flaws with it, and dubbing it one of the most comfortable IWBs he has ever worn despite it's bulk, a contract order was made for his entire team. Seeing the holster in use has led to a few other multiple contract orders for the same holster by other agencies. So it can work, and several hard-core customers who wear a pistol for much greater length of time than most CCW holders are not the least bit disappointed. The below holster has been made by me for Glocks, Sigs, and 1911s.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Mark Garrity

[Sixer]

Mark,

Those are awesome! How is the retention?

[K-Man]

1. When you Google your business trade name and come up with 150,000 hits, let's talk again.

2. When your website consistently draws 5,000-plus hits every week, let's talk again.

3. When you are producing over 2,000 completed orders every year, let's talk again.

4. When you have repeat customers in all 50 US states and 29 foreign countries, let's talk again.

5. When you think for a single moment "The customer is always right", let's talk again.

6. When the e-mail traffic from your website requires 4 or 5 hours every day to read and respond to, let's talk again.

7. When you have committed to production of a project for a customer who knows more about your business than you will ever learn, let's talk again.

8. When your customer takes delivery of his "dream holster", completed to his exact specifications, and realizes that there is no way in the world that it can ever function in the way he thought/knew/dreamed that it would, and is blaming your lousy execution for ruining his sublime inspiration, let's talk again.

Been there, done that. My comments were based on actual experience in the holster-making, holster-designing, and business experiences. Good luck to you.

[Mark Garrity]

@ Sixer,

The retention isn't as snug as my usual work, due to the lack of detail boning in the trigger-guard area in particualar, but each holster is molded to the specific gun and light (Surefire X300 or Steamlight TLR-1) so there is still a good friction fit. You can do the upside-down shake test and the pistol won't fall out. As any officer carrying a gun-mounted light on-duty in a Safariland 6280 can attest, there's some amount of drag with the light-mounted guns, in particular due to the protrusions of the various mounting attachment tabs on the lights.

I was really skeptical that this would work at first when approached with the idea, which is why I only made the one initial working prototype after going through several design variations, and made the end-user run it for over a full year before making any others.

I initially wanted to make it with allen-screw attached loops, and may offer it that way, but his team specified no screws, rivets, or snaps.So far I have not advertised it on my web-site, because it is a labor-intensive PITA to make. For now I'm content filling contract orders for SMU teams and those few random customers that do inquire if I make such a thing.

[TexasJack]

Not many are brave enough to turn business away. The reality is that small, custom shops would probably take on whatever job they can get.

With any business, you've got to know your limitations. You have to be able to draw a line so that you don't take on work that you cannot complete profitably.

[SooperJake]

This is one of the best discussions I have read in the forums, to-date.

[chiefjason]

As an aside, I had a guy on a local gun board want one for a TLR-1 so bad he sent me the light to work with. I had 2 requests for this light in a week. So I OK'd it with him to make 2 holsters with his light and I'll be looking to build a mock light in the process to use later. Going to mock up a CT laserguard for a G19 tomorrow too for a customer. But I don't have anything silly like a backlog of work to keep me from scrounging up work where I can. I don't turn it down until I'm positive I just cannot do it. If I was as busy of some of you guys are, I'd probably not go to all that trouble.

[immiketoo]

So, it's been interesting to see who feels what here and I have a few observations. First, Lobo clearly has been successful enough to be able to refuse an order that he would rather not bother with, and god love him for that. Second, while I still cant think of a scenario where a concealed (Read IWB) light would be necessary, I was approached by one of my detectives who wants a holster for his P220 for plainclothes carry, and I had to chuckle because of the ongoing discussion here!

Will I turn him down? No way, but, will I guarantee him it will be as slick as something without a light? No. In fact, I told him what my concerns were, most notably the bulk of carrying a full size pistol/light combo all day whilst wearing a suit. But, if he wants it I'll try it because I'm not as busy or experienced as the OP, and without trying, I'll never know if 40 years from now I should have turned it down!

[Sixer]

@ Sixer,

The retention isn't as snug as my usual work, due to the lack of detail boning in the trigger-guard area in particualar, but each holster is molded to the specific gun and light (Surefire X300 or Steamlight TLR-1) so there is still a good friction fit. You can do the upside-down shake test and the pistol won't fall out. As any officer carrying a gun-mounted light on-duty in a Safariland 6280 can attest, there's some amount of drag with the light-mounted guns, in particular due to the protrusions of the various mounting attachment tabs on the lights.

I was really skeptical that this would work at first when approached with the idea, which is why I only made the one initial working prototype after going through several design variations, and made the end-user run it for over a full year before making any others.

I initially wanted to make it with allen-screw attached loops, and may offer it that way, but his team specified no screws, rivets, or snaps.So far I have not advertised it on my web-site, because it is a labor-intensive PITA to make. For now I'm content filling contract orders for SMU teams and those few random customers that do inquire if I make such a thing.

Well it looks like you've nailed it! I made one for a friend of mine about 2 years ago. He's a local DSF agent and carries an HK 45 with a TLR-2 on the rail. At that time, making holsters was more of a hobby than a way to earn $$. I was certain to let him know that I had never made anything for a rail attachment and that he would want to wear it extensively OFF DUTY before using on duty. I don't think I ended up charging him anything for it... I know that I was personally not happy with the way it turned out. Fortunately he thought it was great... still wears it on duty, haha. I'm determined to remake it when I get time. It keeps getting pushed to the back because I hated making the first one Anyway... FANTASTIC design and workmanship on yours... there is definitely a niche market for these. That said, unless they are local, I'm still turning down any requests for guns with rail mounted accessories. Of course, I'll do it politely

[Big O]

3. When you are producing over 2,000 completed orders every year, let's talk again.

I think that one line pretty much says it all, when you explore its ramifications.

In the time it would take Lobo to build this one holster, beginning from scratch, how many holsters COULD he have made using his off-the-shelf designs? And that's ASSUMING access to the same pistol and light combo, either the customer's or a generous friend's.

In other words, how much would it COST Lobo in lost business opportunity?

I can see his reasoning. It makes perfect sense for him, with the volume of business he has.

This remains a hobby for me, so it wouldn't be an issue - for me - as long as I can have access to the pistola for the design and molding phases. But I'm handling about 1% of Lobo's volume.

[Dwight]

I have made similar holsters to what Lobo mentioned, . . . they are a pain, . . . and I really don't like doing them.

But, . . . having said that, . . . if I were in Lobo's position, . . . I'd probably pass myself.

And, . . . that is part of the fun we have in this hobby/business. Some we do, . . . some we do without.

May God bless,

Dwight