Prefered Sewing Methods?

[Bryan M]

Just getting started in all this madness and I had a question about sewing methods. What is preferable? I know its a loaded question and its ment to be. I got the Tandy sewing awl yesterday and was practicing with it. It turned out a nice stitch IMO. I have a friend who showed me how to use this on a knife sheath he made. He doesn't use the chisels to make the holes. His method is a 1/16th inch drill bit in a drill press. I watched as he drilled all the holes for the sheath in a matter of minutes. It did not take a long time. He did use a spacing tool. I dunno what they are called, star wheel on a handle thingamabob. Then he used the sewing awl to stitch it all up. Start to finish it took less than 30 minutes work. Admitedly he's been doing this for a few decades and is an excellent knife maker.

I've been talking to the folks in the chat here and it seems most use the two needle method, which I admit mystifies me. I saw the video posted on the site about doing that and I have yet to get the needles and awl needed to do that system of stitching. I know where I can get some needles that will work. I don't know if there are any leather sewing stuff other than what little I've found localy. Which is minimal. Not to mention pretty over priced, considering what I've seen online. One of the problems of living in Central Alaska.

Any insight into the mysteries of hand stitching would be appreciated.

Bryan

Edited January 11, 2013 by Bryan M

[Dwight]

Using two needles makes for a "stronger" stitch, . . . in that if one side gets busted, . . . you can pull it out, . . . and the other thread will hold your product.

Using the single needle, . . . making a machine type stitch, . . . is faster, at least for me, . . . but if the stitch breaks, . . . the whole thing "can" pull out.

Personally, . . . I don't think it makes a tad to me, . . . I use a machine, . . . but even if I didn't, . . . I still put everything together with contact cement, . . . in many cases, . . . the stitches do more decorating than they do anything else.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Leela Valley Leather]

saddle stitch (two needle) for me gives a nicer result, used to drill out the holes but that removed too much material and left the stitching looking sloppy and half arsed.

[katsass]

FWIW from the grumpy old guy: Good hand (saddle) stitching takes some time and effort to be done properly. The little "sewing awl" from Tandy is not anything to be using to stitch with - except, maybe. as an emergency thing to repair canvas with. A good saddler's awl, (also called a stitching awl or diamond awl), two harness needles, and strong thread (I use only waxed linen) is about all that is absolutely needed. A gouge and an overstitch tool just make things nicer. The use of a 1/16" drill bit WILL make holes, albeit the holes that are generally too damned big, and refuse to close back up, which adds to the security of the stitch, and is integral to good saddle stitching. My suggestion is to pick up the book "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" by Al Stohlman, and learn to stitch the correct way. I don't suspect that your buddy's stitching looks a whole bunch like the hand stitching in this pic, and it certainly is not as sturdy as a good saddle stitch. Mike

.

Edited January 12, 2013 by katsass

[immiketoo]

Hey Bryan, I have to second what Mike says here, and he is a master saddle stitcher. His work is a testament to the fact. However, there are lots of people who drill their stitch holes and I have yet to hear of any of their products breaking or coming apart. I know that the traditional method is stronger and I KNOW that the cosmetic results are far better based on my personal experience. Those are reasons enough for me to use the diamond awl and two needle method, and truthfully, there IS a reason that its been done that way for hundreds of years.

[Bryan M]

Ok well, I have to admit I feel somewhat chastised. But, that does not mean I don't value everyones input. If you google Mark Knapp Custom Knives you will see his work. I know he uses 65# stranded nylon fishing line for his thread and his knives all are able to take a beating. He makes mostly for an Alaska hunting market. He has won awards and been written up in many knife magazines. Some of the latest ones are mentioned on his site. His current production knife is a 1911 handled survival blade that has a survival kit in the 1911 handle. It was designed and made for the 100 year anniversary of the 1911.

I admit I don't know much about stitching leather. I'm primarily a blacksmith learning knifesmithing. I figured I would need to know how to make a good sheath at some point. I tend not to do things halfway. I am trying to learn to the best of my ability and will take the suggestions given. Just need to find the book and buy more tools now.

[electrathon]

When working with real thick leather (like on a knife sheath) I usually drill my holes with a very big sewing machine needle. The needle does not remove leather but pushes it to the side as the hole is opened up. I hold the needle in the drill press (turn it on), this keeps everything very striaght.

Strength of stitches is very critical in saddles, not near as big of a deal on a sheath that could almost be held togeather with proper glueing.

[immiketoo]

Ok well, I have to admit I feel somewhat chastised. But, that does not mean I don't value everyones input. If you google Mark Knapp Custom Knives you will see his work. I know he uses 65# stranded nylon fishing line for his thread and his knives all are able to take a beating. He makes mostly for an Alaska hunting market. He has won awards and been written up in many knife magazines. Some of the latest ones are mentioned on his site. His current production knife is a 1911 handled survival blade that has a survival kit in the 1911 handle. It was designed and made for the 100 year anniversary of the 1911.

I admit I don't know much about stitching leather. I'm primarily a blacksmith learning knifesmithing. I figured I would need to know how to make a good sheath at some point. I tend not to do things halfway. I am trying to learn to the best of my ability and will take the suggestions given. Just need to find the book and buy more tools now.

Dude, don't feel chastised. There are subtleties to this are that I don't even know about, and it takes years to understand some of them. And, frankly, just because your buddy, who is an amazing knife maker, showed you one way, you think its the way its done. I'd respect a guy like that's opinion too! Like I said earlier, there a zillion ways to do things, some better and some worse. We are here as a resource and you certainly dont have to do it the way I would.

As for buying more tools, THAT is my specialty. Nothing subtle about it Happy stitching!

[mikesmith648]

Same as what Mike2 said................But for the tool buying part.....I OWN that title

Mike......the tool whore!

[Matt S]

FWIW I'm slightly OCD about hand stitching. I like to use a pricking iron (NOT used as a punch), never stitch straight across a strap and only groove/recess when needed (maximises strength but mainly because I prefer the look). Thread is pure linen, hand rolled to whatever size needed and waxed with coad. I use a 1-1/2" harness awl and a pair of no4 harness needles, the smallest commonly found. FWIW I now find it quite easy to stitch 12/5 with even these tiny needles -- the trick is to get a good taper on each end, which IMHO can only be achieved hand-rolling from yarn. Pliers hardly ever needed. The other advantage of this is that you only need to keep one roll of yarn in stock, and can dye it any colour you like before waxing.

I used to have great difficulties hand stitching -- angled stabs, wobbly stitch, dead sailors and above all slow. So I read all I could. Stohlman's book is a good start but I learned plenty also from Ron Edwards and of course from many generous members here -- especially the old saddlers. I sharpened my awl (£3 blade and £1 handle, shortened and shaved to fit my hand), rolled a lot of threads, built a stitching clam, and practiced Then I practiced some more. I'm up to 3 stitches per minute on a very neat line, though there is still room for improvement.

[Bryan M]

Ok I think I see what ya'll er talkin about. I'll go see if I can find some local stuff to work with. If not then I'll need to go online. Or make it.

[Ryan Barto]

I prefer to use diamond stitching chisels to punch the holes and then saddle stitch. I did use a stitching awl to individually punch the holes in the past, but I had a real tough time getting the back of my stitching to stay as straight as the front. The chisels improved my stitching greatly. I have a lot of respect for those who have taken the time to learn to keep their awl straight though, and some day I'll be able to teach myself. For now, I'm able to get the results I like with the chisels.

[kwelna]

I too am a noob and am trying to lean the craft. I will tell you that after stitching 7 belts for 7 fat guys and listening to and heading Katsass' suggestions and critiques, my stitching is WAY better than it was. My only suggestion is to get a good and really SHARP diamond shaped awl ( The tandy awls are way too big, and way,way too dull. I too use a pricking iron to mark my stitches not punch hole through the leather. I am no expert by any streatch of the imagination, but I could not beleive what a difference a good sharp awl made in my work making stitching easier. ANd yes I too need to use pliers to pull my needle through my holes. (Usually only where the thread bulges right at the end of the eye of the needle where teh thread passes through.)

[Mijo]

I prefer to use diamond stitching chisels to punch the holes and then saddle stitch. I did use a stitching awl to individually punch the holes in the past, but I had a real tough time getting the back of my stitching to stay as straight as the front. The chisels improved my stitching greatly. I have a lot of respect for those who have taken the time to learn to keep their awl straight though, and some day I'll be able to teach myself. For now, I'm able to get the results I like with the chisels.

I do the same thing but I use a saddle chisel instead of a diamond chisel. I use this method when hand stitching multiple layers of leather where any one layer is over 10oz. The problem with a diamond chisel is when you punch two layers that will be lined up flesh side to flesh side and sewn together, the diamond patterns are opposite of each other. This causes the stitching to look a little less uniform. Since the saddle chisel is rectangular or slot like in shape, the hole pattern is the same on both sides.

I normally don't punch the leather all the way through with the chisel but it's punched deep enough so that it doesn't take that much force to get the needle through the rest of the way. I still need to use pliers to pull the first needle through though. For thinner layers of leather I use an awl, but I still mark the leather using the same chisel.

[Matt S]

ANd yes I too need to use pliers to pull my needle through my holes. (Usually only where the thread bulges right at the end of the eye of the needle where teh thread passes through.)

I used to have this problem and it is quite common. I think it is because not enough people taper the ends of their threads. If you look at Al Stohlman's stitching book he shows two solutions: tapering the ends of premade unwaxed thread by scraping with a knife and hand rolling thread frim single linen yarns. I started with the first and then moved to the second once i found a source of single strand linen. Now i use nothing else, and no pliers needed. Long tapers also allow you to use very small needles which makes stitching easier and you can make your awl holes smaller. I now use James Joyce no4 harness needles which make those no0 needles Tandy sells look like deck spikes!

[Bryan M]

OK so, I'm going to be making sheaths with multi layers of leather. Welt in the center to keep the knife from pushing through the threads. Contact cement to glue it all together first. How do I make a hole in over a quarter inch thick piece of leather. I'll be using, for the most part, 8/9 thickness leather. I don't see how one of those angled multi tined chisels would do that.

[Matt S]

OK so, I'm going to be making sheaths with multi layers of leather. Welt in the center to keep the knife from pushing through the threads. Contact cement to glue it all together first. How do I make a hole in over a quarter inch thick piece of leather. I'll be using, for the most part, 8/9 thickness leather. I don't see how one of those angled multi tined chisels would do that.

With a diamond harness awl. Not those overpriced masonry nails Tandy sells. Get you a 1-1/2" harness awl, mount it in a handle (buy or make) and sharpen it. Polish too if you have the patience. It'll go through easy.

[kwelna]

I used to have this problem and it is quite common. I think it is because not enough people taper the ends of their threads. If you look at Al Stohlman's stitching book he shows two solutions: tapering the ends of premade unwaxed thread by scraping with a knife and hand rolling thread frim single linen yarns. I started with the first and then moved to the second once i found a source of single strand linen. Now i use nothing else, and no pliers needed. Long tapers also allow you to use very small needles which makes stitching easier and you can make your awl holes smaller. I now use James Joyce no4 harness needles which make those no0 needles Tandy sells look like deck spikes!

I have the stohman book sand i saw this technique, but I do not understand what prevents the cords from snaggining on the hole in the leather and bunching up as you pull the thread through the leather. Dont all the cords of the thread have to pass through the eye so this does not happen?

Edited January 15, 2013 by kwelna

[Matt S]

I have the stohman book sand i saw this technique, but I do not understand what prevents the cords from snaggining on the hole in the leather and bunching up as you pull the thread through the leather. Dont all the cords of the thread have to pass through the eye so this does not happen?

Only one or possibly two cords should be in the eye of the needle, that is what makes pulling your needles through much easier. Then once you have locked each needle you have no more than one diameter of thread behind the eye (and I often end up with less).

If you use untapered threads you are trying to pull through two diameters of thread each time -- and the needles' eyes must be larger too. Your awl holes are designed to be a very tight fit around two diameters of thread once the stitch is pulled tight. With untapered thread you can have up to four diameters of thread in the hole when trying to force both needles through!

The threads stay in place largely with wax. I say wax, but in reality I use coad, a mixture of rosin and beeswax. I know a lot of sources including Stohlman say to use beeswax but coad is definitely the way to go. Whereas beeswax lubricates the linen, the addition of rosin really stickies it up. This helps keep the thread together, helps lock the needle on, and helps the stitches to lock together. Apparently there's also some antirot benefits.

[kwelna]

I made my own coad when I bought a pound of linnen thread. My stitching is getting better, so now it is time to learn this tapering thing. thanks

[kwelna]

Ok tapered the end of my threads and it did make a difference. Kind of a PITA (Pain in the ... ) though. It does make it easier to stitch in the long run. Basically you want to avoid cutting off any of teh cords of the thread. You just want to keep the lenght and thin each cord down about 50%. I get it now.

The light comes on albeit dimmly

Edited January 18, 2013 by kwelna

[Bryan M]

My head is swimming right now. Seems like there is to much to know. LOL. I've done a little practice with my ez stitcher and I think the stitches look alright for a beginner. I will go to the local store that has some Tandy supplies and see what their needles look like. I know they had them, I just don't remember if they are for hand stitching or using leather thongs. Failing that. What kind of needles would get the job done that maybe arn't made exactly for that purpose? Canvas needles ect?

[electrathon]

What kind of needles would get the job done that maybe arn't made exactly for that purpose? Canvas needles ect?

Go to the local sewing store and buy needles there. When you get home dull the tips of them on a whetstone. You do not want them to be sharp.

[Bryan M]

Go to the local sewing store and buy needles there. When you get home dull the tips of them on a whetstone. You do not want them to be sharp.

Ok so something about the size of a #0 harness needle then? And I would want something with a larger eye as well I would think. The stiching thread I have is quite a bit thicker than normal sewing thread.

[electrathon]

Ok so something about the size of a #0 harness needle then? And I would want something with a larger eye as well I would think. The stiching thread I have is quite a bit thicker than normal sewing thread.

Find the smallest needle you can get your thread through.