Are expensive whet stones worth it?

[bikermutt07]

The sharper the better

 I use automotive sandpaper up to 2000 and then strop.

I just lay the sandpaper on my granite top and pull away from the edge.

If I am just maintaining an edge I start at 800 and work my way up. When I get something new and dull I usually start at 220. Unless I'm reprofiling.

One thing that bothers me about this is I never develop that wire edge that has to be stropped off?

Edited February 22, 2017 by bikermutt07

[Brianm77]

Stones are good, but imho, the stones will get a dead spot in the middle or wherever you are doing the sharpening. You can get a special stone to flatten them back out, or on a buget you can do the sandpaper 180g or so on a piece of good flat stone or glass and flatten your sharpening stone back out.  If you do it more often it takes less to get back going again.  With just a few strokes across the paper you can see the black spots go away on the ends. 

[YinTx]

In the interest of not hijacking this thread, I have apologetically moved my questions to a new topic:

YinTx

[rickdroid]

13 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

One thing that bothers me about this is I never develop that wire edge that has to be stropped off?

Not saying that you are wrong, but you most probably are getting a wire edge and knocking it off before you realize it.

With practice you can feel the wire edge - use you fingernail and feel the edge of the blade.   Be sure to try both sides of the blade, remember that edge moves from one side of the blade to the other side.  It will be opposite to the side of the blade that is in contact with the stone.

A good way to tell if there is a wire edge is to try to shave slivers from a sheet of paper.  When you have removed the wire edge you will be able to shave tiny slivers from the paper with ease, the blade on a sharp well polished blade will easily cut through a sheet of paper without any kind of a sawing motion,.  If a wire edge still exists on the blade then the slivers will be ragged and it will seem like the blade is wandering as you try to shave the sliver from the paper.  If you have the edge removed you can push the blade through the paper without using a sawing motion.  If the edge hasnt been removed you probably will have to resort to a sawing motion to cut a sliver off of the paper.

Of course this is based on my experience and your may differ.  Hope this helps a little.

rick

[bikermutt07]

16 minutes ago, rickdroid said:

Not saying that you are wrong, but you most probably are getting a wire edge and knocking it off before you realize it.

With practice you can feel the wire edge - use you fingernail and feel the edge of the blade.   Be sure to try both sides of the blade, remember that edge moves from one side of the blade to the other side.  It will be opposite to the side of the blade that is in contact with the stone.

A good way to tell if there is a wire edge is to try to shave slivers from a sheet of paper.  When you have removed the wire edge you will be able to shave tiny slivers from the paper with ease, the blade on a sharp well polished blade will easily cut through a sheet of paper without any kind of a sawing motion,.  If a wire edge still exists on the blade then the slivers will be ragged and it will seem like the blade is wandering as you try to shave the sliver from the paper.  If you have the edge removed you can push the blade through the paper without using a sawing motion.  If the edge hasnt been removed you probably will have to resort to a sawing motion to cut a sliver off of the paper.

Of course this is based on my experience and your may differ.  Hope this helps a little.

rick

I don't think I'm getting a wire at all. I do look at the blade through a loop from time to time as I sharpen. As I'm using the sandpaper tiny hairs develop almost like shavings on a magnet. I think these "shavings" are taking the place of the wire due to my technique. But they aren't stuck. I usually wipe it off on my jeans and carry on. At least this is my theory.

I do notice a bit of difference in cutting between the 2000 grit and the strop. Cause, you know, I like to abuse paper.

Edited February 22, 2017 by bikermutt07

[Jors]

I am very fond of my toys.

I have several knife sharpening systems.

I also bought the lansky hard ans soft 6 inch bench stones. Together with a green and white soap on a strop, I can sharpen any tool to shaving sharp.

[DonInReno]

A few years ago I ran into some images taken with an electron microscope showing what’s going on when we sharpen a knife blade and it really changed my perspective.  This is just an example of some of those - the factory new Victorinox edges are pretty sharp in use, but the edge sharpened by a professional knife sharpener on stones is even better.  The scalpel blades are interesting

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/tag/knives/page/3/

check out how the removal rate of different stones and how coarse stones need additional pressure or they don’t take off more metal than finer ones!  

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2016/12/21/abrasion-rate-vs-grit/

[immiketoo]

I have a box of whet stones and they sit there.  Sand paper is far easier, less expensive and I get pretty amazing results by starting at 400 and going up to 2000 grit before a final polish.  Looks like a mirror and skives with ease.  I lay the paper right on my stamping stone and go to work

[bikermutt07]

5 hours ago, immiketoo said:

I have a box of whet stones and they sit there.  Sand paper is far easier, less expensive and I get pretty amazing results by starting at 400 and going up to 2000 grit before a final polish.  Looks like a mirror and skives with ease.  I lay the paper right on my stamping stone and go to work

Oh wowsers! I do it just like the experts. Sweeeet!!!

On 2/21/2017 at 10:50 PM, bikermutt07 said:

The sharper the better

 I use automotive sandpaper up to 2000 and then strop.

I just lay the sandpaper on my granite top and pull away from the edge.

If I am just maintaining an edge I start at 800 and work my way up. When I get something new and dull I usually start at 220. Unless I'm reprofiling.

One thing that bothers me about this is I never develop that wire edge that has to be stropped off?

 

[Nuttish]

On 12/20/2016 at 9:12 PM, Chrism said:

So on a budget which stones are the best to come by?

In my limited experience, cheap stones are just fine if they're (a) flat, (b) the correct grit, and (c) used properly.

One cheap Japanese combination water stone with one side at 600 to 1000 grit and the other other 4000 to 8000 grit and one courser combination oil or water stone will serve you well for a long time. I've been using the same King KW-65 and Norton course/fine bench stone for years.

Just be aware that the water stones will wear much more quickly than the oil stones, though they're also much easier to bring back to usable condition. Just stick a sheet of 150 grit paper to a piece of glass or acrylic and dress the surface until the old tool marks are removed uniformly.

Depending on the oil stone, you can dress them with progressively finer files - obviously only do this with a dull file you no longer intend to use on metal. Sometimes the surfaces of courser stones are difficult to use because they're so crudded up with oil/metal, so you can sometimes bring them back by soaking them in degreaser and pressure washing them. Don't pressure wash Japanese style water stones - the manmade ones are basically just fancy clay.

[immiketoo]

5 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

Oh wowsers! I do it just like the experts. Sweeeet!!!

 

I am no expert, but I am a sharp enthusiast.  I learned form Terry Knipshield, and he is the king of sharp.  Once you see how sharp something can be, you can't go back.

4 minutes ago, Nuttish said:

In my limited experience, cheap stones are just fine if they're (a) flat, (b) the correct grit, and (c) used properly.

One cheap Japanese combination water stone with one side at 600 to 1000 grit and the other other 4000 to 8000 grit and one courser combination oil or water stone will serve you well for a long time. I've been using the same King KW-65 and Norton course/fine bench stone for years.

Just be aware that the water stones will wear much more quickly than the oil stones, though they're also much easier to bring back to usable condition. Just stick a sheet of 150 grit paper to a piece of glass or acrylic and dress the surface until the old tool marks are removed uniformly.

Depending on the oil stone, you can dress them with progressively finer files - obviously only do this with a dull file you no longer intend to use on metal. Sometimes the surfaces of courser stones are difficult to use because they're so crudded up with oil/metal, so you can sometimes bring them back by soaking them in degreaser and pressure washing them. Don't pressure wash Japanese style water stones - the manmade ones are basically just fancy clay.

Agreed.  I have one expensive Japanese stone that cost a small fortune, and I only use it for finishing on mirror polish, but Ive found that for most things, you can get just as good results from 8k grit honing tapes for a fraction of the cost.  

[immiketoo]

Here’s a knife I sharpened for a local sandal maker.  He sharpened it with a square rasp and the sidewalk.  I had a lot of work to do, but it was all done with a coarse oil stone, the sand paper in 500, 1000, and 2000 grit variants.

 

[bikermutt07]

Not sure how I double posted?

[immiketoo]

6 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

Oh wowsers! I do it just like the experts. Sweeeet!!!

 

Lol...fine!  I just deleted it for you.  I thought you were just very excited

 

[Willb2862]

Im new to leather work,  but have been a handtool only woodworker for a few years now.  I have a full compliment of hand planes, several sets of chisels, marking knives,  ect. Creating and maintaining a very sharp edge is always on my mind.  I have found the most efficient way,  FOR ME, is diamond stones and a strop. I use a two sided stone (400/1000) to set my bevels and start to hone the edge. I then move to the strop untill the edge is fully pollished. After that, I only go back to the stones if I get a knick/chip in the edge, or to change a bevel angle. Other than those circumstances,  I maintain the edge with just the strop. This has worked wonders for me by saving time and materials!

As far as the burr created when sharpening, if your technique is good and the angle is consistent across the length, and no burr is being created, its probably due to the metal of the blade. Soft steel will burr up fast, but come off easily, sometimes with a fingernail when checking for the burr. Hard steel takes a while to burr and is harder to remove. Hope this helps someone.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Willb2862
Typo

[Willb2862]

I  should note that I go to the strop more frequently than I would if I use the stones every time, but it's a few seconds and back to work with a super sharp blade.

[philg9]

As far as my harness tools go.  I never use any of what is termed as the traditional oil sharpening stones,also known as carborundum stones  if you want to ruin your tool edges, go right ahead. The only one I use now is an Eze Lap diamond stone, it is a slab of stainless stell with doamoind dust coating embedded in the top surface. to create a new edge or re edge, this is the only one I'll use. If i caught anyone putting my tools on an oil stone thye would end up wearing it.   i only go to the Eze lap when an edge really does need re doing. After that and for general everyday maintenence, it is the leather strop board.  On one side I have a piece of something like 1.5 MM panel hide glued onto the board, flesh side up and I rub fine jewellers rouge onto the leather, this keeps half round knives ( head knives), skiving knives, clicker blade knives lovely and smooth with no burrs, once been over this, on the other side of the board i have another piece of panel hide glued on, flesh side up woith nothing on it, just plain leather, I then put the blade on thos for a final polishing. Nothing else keeps my tools toip top razor sharp so they are ready to go whenever i need to use them.

Then after that, if they do need a final polish to really take out and final marks to really get a high polish and  avery keen edge, I have another strop board, again with a pice of panel hide glued on flesh side up, and I alwayskeep the brand of metala polish called " Autosol "    this is widely available everywhere, it comes in a toothpaste size tube, smear a little blob onto the leather and smea rit around a bit to cover the sized area the blade will need then goive it a final stropping on the Autosol, nothing I have found will take out and final scores and marks you cant see with your naked eye and will take off any final tiny bits of burr to then leave your tol gleaming, polished and if you done it right with the right angle for whatever blade you are working on,  be careful of your fingers.  I use the above methods on my splitter blades, works a treat, takes a bit more work as these blades are old and harder steel but the Autosol does good for the final few sweeps.   With the leather strops and jewellers rouge,you do not need to apply hard pressure,  it's better with a lot more gentle sweeps rather than a few hard grinds.

[MikeRock]

"Anyhow, what I've gleaned is that the DMT diamond stones have an uneven distribution of diamond sizes, which leaves random large gouges in the knife bevel."

Years ago at the SHOT Show in Vegas I told the DMT guy that I just rubbed two of their stones face to face to get rid of high diamonds and he said that was a great answer to the high diamond problem.  I bought the kit of three 2x6 inch stones a did the two finer ones on the coarse (Red) one.....problem solved on all three stones at once.   It doesn't knock the life down at all.  I have a 15 year old stone right here on the desk and it still works, every day.

God bless

[Retswerb]

On 10/2/2018 at 4:22 PM, DonInReno said:

A few years ago I ran into some images taken with an electron microscope showing what’s going on when we sharpen a knife blade and it really changed my perspective.  This is just an example of some of those - the factory new Victorinox edges are pretty sharp in use, but the edge sharpened by a professional knife sharpener on stones is even better.  The scalpel blades are interesting

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/tag/knives/page/3/

check out how the removal rate of different stones and how coarse stones need additional pressure or they don’t take off more metal than finer ones!  

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2016/12/21/abrasion-rate-vs-grit/

Saw this post the other night and boy howdy have I fallen down the ‘science of sharp’ rabbit hole! He’s got a ton of fascinating experiments and pics on there. Cool resource, great in-depth reading for anyone interested in what’s actually going on when you sharpen or strop a blade.

[Spyros]

   I hate sharpening.

[DonInReno]

3 hours ago, Retswerb said:

Saw this post the other night and boy howdy have I fallen down the ‘science of sharp’ rabbit hole! He’s got a ton of fascinating experiments and pics on there. Cool resource, great in-depth reading for anyone interested in what’s actually going on when you sharpen or strop a blade.

It’s been almost two years since I read that and after a reread it’s just as interesting - this is definitely a must read!

[Hardrada]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

   I hate sharpening.

It can be frustrating, specially with round blades. A necessary hassle, though; and with the right tools/stones, it can even be enjoyable.

[Spyros]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:12 AM, Hardrada said:

It can be frustrating, specially with round blades. A necessary hassle, though; and with the right tools/stones, it can even be enjoyable.

The world invented replaceable blades, no reason to go back to the 19th century.   Utility knife, X-acto, rotary blade, strap cutter, safety skiver, anything I can do to eliminate sharpening I will absolutely do

Round knives look really cool but I wouldn't take one for free.

[Frodo]

.....

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Frodo

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, Spyros said:

The world invented replaceable blades, no reason to go back to the 19th century.   Utility knife, X-acto, rotary blade, strap cutter, safety skiver, anything I can do to eliminate sharpening I will absolutely do

Round knives look really cool but I wouldn't take one for free.

LOl kinda ironic statement since people have been working leather since the stone age. I sharpen my disposables too No need wasting the earths valuable resources is my outlook. But to each his own is my motto. I use so many different cutting tools that its a necessity kinda like washing dishes imo just hum a tune while doing it and its over before you know it.