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On 3/1/2017 at 4:35 PM, Wizcrafts said:

I heard from Cobra Steve about the new Class 26 machine. He told me that it sews from 3 ounces up to 3/8 inch, uses standard walking foot System 135x16 and 135x17 needles, sizes 18 - 24, has an extra large hook that takes Juki LU (double capacity) bobbins and can handle up to #277 thread on top, with #207 in the bobbin. It also uses standard Singer 111 type walking feet.

That's all I know at this time. I hope this helps.

Thank you for this info, Wizcraft and Steve. This above is the correct info on the Cobra then? It does not have the ability to sew up to 5/8”? I’m assuming at this point that was a typo or some other error. I’m expecting to purchase a machine in the next two weeks or so.   In trying to compare the Techsew 2750, the Cowboy CB341, and the Cobra 26, I expected the same capabilities but either there is some difference, or there is misleading or incorrect information out there.  There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and I appreciate all of you. 

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5 hours ago, Ceejay said:

Thank you for this info, Wizcraft and Steve. This above is the correct info on the Cobra then? It does not have the ability to sew up to 5/8”? I’m assuming at this point that was a typo or some other error. I’m expecting to purchase a machine in the next two weeks or so.   In trying to compare the Techsew 2750, the Cowboy CB341, and the Cobra 26, I expected the same capabilities but either there is some difference, or there is misleading or incorrect information out there.  There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and I appreciate all of you. 

You are confusing the maximum foot "lift" with the actual sewing capacity. With walking foot machines you lose between 1/8 to 1/4 inch of capacity under the raised feet. This is because the feet have to alternate up and down to move the material. So, when a manufacturer says that the feet lift 1/2 or 5/8 inch, they do, but only to insert and remove tall objects on the work. Once the work is secured under the lowered feet, it must not exceed 3/8 inch. The top to bottom stroke of a System 135x16 needle is insufficient to negotiate anything thicker.

If you buy a Model 26, have the seller sew a test strip of a 3/8 inch stack of veg-tan with the thickest thread it can properly tension and pull the knots up between the layers. Or, ask them to sew the thickest stack that can be sewn with #277 thread on top and 207 in the bobbin.. You may find it to be less than 3/8 inch.

#277 thread requires a lot more upper spring tension to pull the knots up into veg-tan leather than thinner threads. That's why the tension springs on the 441 clones are about twice the thickness as springs on upholstery class machines, which are already heavier than the beehive springs on garment sewing machines.

Structurally, there is no benefit to using heavier thread on top because the thinner bobbin thread will be the first to give under stress.

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8 hours ago, Ceejay said:

Thank you for this info, Wizcraft and Steve. This above is the correct info on the Cobra then? It does not have the ability to sew up to 5/8”? I’m assuming at this point that was a typo or some other error. I’m expecting to purchase a machine in the next two weeks or so.   In trying to compare the Techsew 2750, the Cowboy CB341, and the Cobra 26, I expected the same capabilities but either there is some difference, or there is misleading or incorrect information out there.  There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and I appreciate all of you. 

All of these machines are clones based on the Juki LS-341 machine. (which is a pretty great machine) They can generally handle up to 138 thread, 207 possibly with some tweaking. The foot lift is 16mm (5/8") and they sew up to 3/8". That's it. The needle stroke pretty much maxes out here. If you read specs past that, they are blowing smoke.

Aside from all this, pick the vendor you feel most comfortable with and read up on each vendor as much as you can. These are all clone machines produced in China with slightly different paint and table stands. What makes each of these machines good (or bad)  is how the vendor assembles and tunes the machine prior to shipment.

 

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11 hours ago, Ceejay said:

Thank you for this info, Wizcraft and Steve. This above is the correct info on the Cobra then? It does not have the ability to sew up to 5/8”? I’m assuming at this point that was a typo or some other error. I’m expecting to purchase a machine in the next two weeks or so.   In trying to compare the Techsew 2750, the Cowboy CB341, and the Cobra 26, I expected the same capabilities but either there is some difference, or there is misleading or incorrect information out there.  There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and I appreciate all of you. 

Machines that are capable of sewing 5/8 inch of leather, with a regular closed eye needle, use system 794 (aka: 7x4) needles, which are at least an inch longer than System 135x16 walking foot machine needles. They are typified by the Cowboy CB4500, Cobra Class 4 and Techsew 5100 machines. They have massive pressure and tension springs, cranks and take-up arms. These machines don't do as well with thin needles and thread, or thin, floppy leather or cloth. Their design specs call for thread sizes 138 through 415, using needle sizes 160 through 230. The needles are the size of roofing nails.

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On 10/10/2018 at 2:07 PM, Wizcrafts said:

Structurally, there is no benefit to using heavier thread on top because the thinner bobbin thread will be the first to give under stress.

THIS.  Exactly.   Especially those folks sewing holsters with 277 on top and 138 on the bottom.  What's the point?!  

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4 hours ago, SolarLeatherMachines said:

THIS.  Exactly.   Especially those folks sewing holsters with 277 on top and 138 on the bottom.  What's the point?!  

I'm not opposed to the point y'all are making but I'm a little curious and ignorant...

How much of a role does the contact cement play into say a pancake "unzipping"?

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5 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

I'm not opposed to the point y'all are making but I'm a little curious and ignorant...

How much of a role does the contact cement play into say a pancake "unzipping"?

Glue is for holding pieces aligned for sewing and for holding lining layers in place. SOP is to glue the flesh sides together. The flesh sides will come loose and begin to separate under sufficient pull.

When I first got into making holsters I sewed them together using left twist, 6 cord, Barbour's Irish linen thread run through liquid wax. The sewing machine was a Union Lockstitch needle and awl harness stitcher that weighed 250 pounds (head) and which sold for about $6,000. You guys have no idea how good we have it nowadays to have access to harness sewing machines that almost anybody can learn to operate in one day, that sew dry thread and can be bought for under $3,000 brand new.

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8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Glue is for holding pieces aligned for sewing and for holding lining layers in place. SOP is to glue the flesh sides together. The flesh sides will come loose and begin to separate under sufficient pull.

When I first got into making holsters I sewed them together using left twist, 6 cord, Barbour's Irish linen thread run through liquid wax. The sewing machine was a Union Lockstitch needle and awl harness stitcher that weighed 250 pounds (head) and which sold for about $6,000. You guys have no idea how good we have it nowadays to have access to harness sewing machines that almost anybody can learn to operate in one day, that sew dry thread and can be bought for under $3,000 brand new.

Thanks @Wizcrafts, and I am appreciative about the clone boom. I have seen you fellas mention that before. 

Did you change your handle?

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4 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

@Wizcrafts

Did you change your handle?

No, it's same user name/alias since I joined the forum. Why do you ask that?

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So when the website  lists the range for thread sizes as 69 to 210 for Thor 1341, and the threads sizes for Cowboy CB341 is listed as 33 to 138, is it just the way each company sets up their machines? Sorry, I know it must get irritating to explain the same thing numerous times and ways. 

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I just purchased the class 26 and find leather thinner than 6oz. very difficult to sew. The presser feet do not hold thinner leather and it wants to move around while sewing. The feed dog is adjusted to it’s highest position. I’m certsin there is another adjustment needed, but I can’t figure it out. Any help is appreciated. 

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2 hours ago, Ceejay said:

So when the website  lists the range for thread sizes as 69 to 210 for Thor 1341, and the threads sizes for Cowboy CB341 is listed as 33 to 138, is it just the way each company sets up their machines? Sorry, I know it must get irritating to explain the same thing numerous times and ways. 

Yes, that pretty much summarizes the situation. For instance, I ordered a post machine that can sew with #69 through #207 thread. My machine arrived threaded and sewn off with #207 thread, top and bottom. Normally, that machine would max out with #138 thread. The dealer fine tuned the hook and timing to meet my requirements.

It is safer to market a walking foot machine with a #138 upper limit and let the dealers adjust them for more or less capacity.

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Thank you Wizcrafts.  My head is spinning over all the info and comparing specs and all.  Going to try to see the Cowboy and the Thor in person in a couple weeks, but I’m not sure that will really clarify anything for me. But I will choose one then. 

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1 hour ago, Ceejay said:

Thank you Wizcrafts.  My head is spinning over all the info and comparing specs and all.  Going to try to see the Cowboy and the Thor in person in a couple weeks, but I’m not sure that will really clarify anything for me. But I will choose one then. 

 

Try to learn about the ranges of thicknesses, densities and thread sizes that different types of sewing machines can "normally" handle. There are always exceptions that knowledgeable individuals can dial in. Industrial sewing machines are purpose built with specific types of sewing and material and thread handling capabilities designed in from the start.

Leathercrafters can usually (but not always) ignore most of the tailoring, embroidering and specialty machines and concentrate on walking foot machines of varying capabilities. These are usually classified according to the type of work they are built to handle without breaking down. Upholstery class machines can typically sew from about 1/16 up to 3/8 of an inch. Some can't quite sew that thickness. Most are able to properly tension up to #138 bonded (nylon/polyester) thread. This thread has a breaking strength of 22 pounds. In order to sew efficiently with thicker thread and/or thicker/denser leather requires a much stronger mechanism. That is why many of us buy big harness stitchers like the Cobra Class 4, Cowboy CB4500, Techsew 5100, Artisan and Adler super duty machines and even the venerable Juki TSC-441.

Know that as much as an upholstery grade machine has difficulty sewing thick material with heavy thread, a harness stitcher has an equal and opposite problem sewing thin material with thin thread. Big machines can be dumbed down, as I have blogged about on my profile, but this is time consuming and not as efficient as having a less heavy duty machine already setup to sew things below the sweet spot of the bigger machine.

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On 10/14/2018 at 11:18 AM, Wizcrafts said:

No, it's same user name/alias since I joined the forum. Why do you ask that?

I thought it used to be The Wiz, my bad.

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On 10/15/2018 at 12:39 AM, Wizcrafts said:

 

Try to learn about the ranges of thicknesses, densities and thread sizes that different types of sewing machines can "normally" handle. There are always exceptions that knowledgeable individuals can dial in. Industrial sewing machines are purpose built with specific types of sewing and material and thread handling capabilities designed in from the start.

Leathercrafters can usually (but not always) ignore most of the tailoring, embroidering and specialty machines and concentrate on walking foot machines of varying capabilities. These are usually classified according to the type of work they are built to handle without breaking down. Upholstery class machines can typically sew from about 1/16 up to 3/8 of an inch. Some can't quite sew that thickness. Most are able to properly tension up to #138 bonded (nylon/polyester) thread. This thread has a breaking strength of 22 pounds. In order to sew efficiently with thicker thread and/or thicker/denser leather requires a much stronger mechanism. That is why many of us buy big harness stitchers like the Cobra Class 4, Cowboy CB4500, Techsew 5100, Artisan and Adler super duty machines and even the venerable Juki TSC-441.

Know that as much as an upholstery grade machine has difficulty sewing thick material with heavy thread, a harness stitcher has an equal and opposite problem sewing thin material with thin thread. Big machines can be dumbed down, as I have blogged about on my profile, but this is time consuming and not as efficient as having a less heavy duty machine already setup to sew things below the sweet spot of the bigger machine.

Thank you for the additional information, Wizcrafts.  I got an opportunity to see a Cobra 26 in person.Monday night. It was set up with 138 thread I think, and a fairly long stitch. Quite different from the domestic machines I’m used to. Looking forward to exploring this, and finding a machine that will suit my needs.  

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On 3/1/2017 at 3:35 PM, Wizcrafts said:

I heard from Cobra Steve about the new Class 26 machine. He told me that it sews from 3 ounces up to 3/8 inch, uses standard walking foot System 135x16 and 135x17 needles, sizes 18 - 24, has an extra large hook that takes Juki LU (double capacity) bobbins and can handle up to #277 thread on top, with #207 in the bobbin. It also uses standard Singer 111 type walking feet.

That's all I know at this time. I hope this helps.

everyone i have talked to says that #207 top thread and #138 in the bobbin is teh largest thread you can run through the Cobra 26.

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This is a fascinating thread full of wisdom.  

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I purchased a Cowboy 341 from Bob Kovar a couple of years ago.  I drove up to try it out in person and bought it on the spot.  I also have a 31-15 with a roller foot that I use for thin stuff...decorative stitching with <69 thread.  My big guy...a Juki 441 with Efka Vario DC handles anything too thick for the CB341 and/or thread 277 and up.  I bought the CB341 to fit in the middle.  It has become my favorite machine of all time (I haven't had as many as some on this site....but I've had more than a few..hee hee).  The only mod I have made (after some frustration) was to remove the cork brake on the servo motor.   

As you can see in the video link below, I am easily able to sew thru two layers of bridle leather with 207 top AND bottom.  I actually run 207 both top and bottom most of the time in this machine.  I don't know if that is a testament to Bob's amazing setup or what, but it has never been a problem for me.  This is why trying a specific machine in person or getting a sample sewn off the machine you are looking at is important.  The exact machine and setup can matter.  

This is a pretty old thread with some recent replies so I hated to add more to it but I felt it might be helpful to someone researching a version of this machine.  

https://youtu.be/UYUoVMZqAKw       CB-341 with 207 thread top and bottom.

Edited by JSLeathercraft

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4 hours ago, JSLeathercraft said:

I purchased a Cowboy 341 from Bob Kovar a couple of years ago.  I drove up to try it out in person and bought it on the spot.  I also have a 31-15 with a roller foot that I use for thin stuff...decorative stitching with <69 thread.  My big guy...a Juki 441 with Efka Vario DC handles anything too thick for the CB341 and/or thread 277 and up.  I bought the CB341 to fit in the middle.  It has become my favorite machine of all time (I haven't had as many as some on this site....but I've had more than a few..hee hee).  The only mod I have made (after some frustration) was to remove the cork brake on the servo motor.   

As you can see in the video link below, I am easily able to sew thru two layers of bridle leather with 207 top AND bottom.  I actually run 207 both top and bottom most of the time in this machine.  I don't know if that is a testament to Bob's amazing setup or what, but it has never been a problem for me.  This is why trying a specific machine in person or getting a sample sewn off the machine you are looking at is important.  The exact machine and setup can matter.  

This is a pretty old thread with some recent replies so I hated to add more to it but I felt it might be helpful to someone researching a version of this machine.  

https://youtu.be/UYUoVMZqAKw       CB-341 with 207 thread top and bottom.

Good looking video showing the machine in use. Thanks for sharing.

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On 3/1/2017 at 9:45 AM, Uwe said:

If your Consew 227R-2 is a re-badged Seiko CW8B-2 (check inside for Seiko branded parts), I wouldn't dismiss it just yet. Try adjusting your 227 for maximum and equal alternating foot lift as it walks. The Seiko CW8B specs state a alternating foot lift of up to 5.5mm, which is about the same as my Juki LS-341 (and likely the same for Cobra Class 26).

Your Consew 227R-2 may just be able to climb up and down your seams after all. Presser foot design and stitch length also play a role in how willingly the feet will climb up or down big steps. 

If your Consew 227R-2 can't step onto the seams, the Juki LS-341 and Cobra Class 26 machines will very likely struggle, too. The next step up from that general class of machines is the Juki TSC-441 and its various clones. 

  

seikoCW8B-2-specs.jpg

 

 

Here are pictures of my Juki LS-341 adjusted for maximum alternating foot lift (about 5.5mm.)

IMG_7504.jpgIMG_7505.jpg Feed dog teeth up way too high.

 

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