Advice.

[immiketoo]

Advice. It’s everywhere. Some is good. Some is great. And, some is crap. Absolute crap. I’ve given a lot of advice over the years. Gotten quite a bit as well. I have always tried to provide the best advice to the best of my knowledge. Occasionally, I’ve screwed the pooch and been corrected, rightfully so.

I am all for whatever works for an individual, but works is relative. Many times, what “works” is either because someone is too lazy to develop a skill or too cheap to buy the right tool for the job.

I get that sometimes there are limitations both intellectual and financial, but it’s more often the former and not the latter.

All I’m saying, if I’m saying anything at all, is to take a look at the work of the person giving the advice. If you don’t see any work, be cautious. If they patently refuse to show an example of what their advice can accomplish, be skeptical.

If you do see some examples, ask yourself if you’d like your work to look like theirs.

There are many ways to do this thang we all love. Some are better than others, while some are personal preference, but its up to you to decide if the "good advice" you just got is actually worthwhile.

For example, I would never take advice on how to do deco cuts from someone who can't do them well.  Likewise, I would never give advice on building saddles since I don't know jack about them.

[Tugadude]

I agree.  I don't tool so don't offer any advice or suggestions.  I weigh in on stitching questions because I have acquired a level of consistency that I feel I can at least help folks on the basics.  I also suggest they watch Nigel Armitage and Ian Atkinson demonstrate on their various youtube videos.  Probably my biggest contribution!

One thing that I see opinions on is using pricking irons and awl versus stitching chisels.  There are proponents on both sides of the spectrum.  I'm in the middle somewhere, meaning I use chisels mostly but definitely use my awl at times and if I need to can complete a project that way.  I just choose not to on most items.

To me it is not either or, but just a comfort level thing.  I think some who eschew the use of diamond chisels have never tried them.  If they did, like Nigel, they would see the inherent power in the tool.  Some would say advantages, I will suffice to say power because I believe for some projects they can contribute a lot.

Good topic!

[Rustwa]

I wish we had a like button, although I was hoping for some advice on antiquing. I get that what works for some doesn't work for everyone and why it doesn't work for me must be the intellectual portion cause it sure ain't for the lack of throwing money at it.

There are some great people on here furthering the craft. You can click on the user and see a body of their work and decide for yourself if theirs is the path for you. Like you could click my name and run away. Lol

[Alexis1234]

I hardly ever offer my opinion on this forum. I barely know what the heck I'm doing so I'm in no position to offer advice .Those that have offered advice/critiques- I respect the work they do and have taken it.

[immiketoo]

2 hours ago, Rustwa said:

I wish we had a like button, although I was hoping for some advice on antiquing. I get that what works for some doesn't work for everyone and why it doesn't work for me must be the intellectual portion cause it sure ain't for the lack of throwing money at it.

There are some great people on here furthering the craft. You can click on the user and see a body of their work and decide for yourself if theirs is the path for you. Like you could click my name and run away. Lol

My advice on antiquing is don't.  Unless you're doing floral work, its pretty awful.    Even when I want the look of antique I usually accomplish the effect with dye or paint.

1 hour ago, Alexis1234 said:

I hardly ever offer my opinion on this forum. I barely know what the heck I'm doing so I'm in no position to offer advice .Those that have offered advice/critiques- I respect the work they do and have taken it.

Offering your opinion is fine.  We all like to hear most people's opinions.  Especially if you find something that works for you.  Nearly everyone has something useful to offer, and as you gain experience, you'll feel more comfortable sharing.

[Riem]

I completely agree with the sentiment that one should accept proffered advice with caution - "caveat emptor", after all - but isn't the logical conclusion of such a 'rule of thumb' that only the true masters would be able to answer us novices' questions?

I see LW.net as a campfire in cyberspace, where ideas are shared, and even the novice has a voice. And as around a campfire, sound judgement is required from the person seeking the advice. It does make for perhaps a slightly more robust discussion, because there is bound to be contrary ideas that will compete, with temperament and discussion styles playing as much of a role as sound advice...

Hope I'm making sense?

[terrymac]

What is sad is there used to be a number of people on this site that when they gave advice or a suggestion, you could take it to the bank.   For whatever reasons they no longer participate.  I  can only guess the reasons.  I am sure Hidepounder got tired of trying to explain what Sheridan style carving truly is. He could go thru a complete explanation of why flowers and circles do not automatically translate to Sheridan and he might as well have been talking to a wall.  Charlie from Equs Leather used to be a regular contributor, but I will bet he got tired of arguing with people.  Oh well, nothing stays the same and life goes on.

[battlemunky]

I'm guilty of a bit of over confidence and offering advice while not really being an expert on anything. I have done a lot of the techniques we use in the craft but have mastered few of them and I always try to qualify my answers to questions with my level of skill and to "wait a bit longer and others who know far more than I are likely to come along". I try not to step on any toes but still offer up advice on stuff I have some knowledge of. I try to never be definitive  in anything I say though because there are usually at least a few ways to skin the cat and likely I don't even know all those ways.

I appreciate most folks' opinions on this forum though. Yours especially Mike because you do put your money where your mouth is.

[Tugadude]

6 hours ago, terrymac said:

What is sad is there used to be a number of people on this site that when they gave advice or a suggestion, you could take it to the bank.   For whatever reasons they no longer participate.  I  can only guess the reasons.  I am sure Hidepounder got tired of trying to explain what Sheridan style carving truly is. He could go thru a complete explanation of why flowers and circles do not automatically translate to Sheridan and he might as well have been talking to a wall.  Charlie from Equs Leather used to be a regular contributor, but I will bet he got tired of arguing with people.  Oh well, nothing stays the same and life goes on.

I've observed the same thing.  Just search topics from 5 years ago and you are amazed how many "regulars" have gone.  Go back further and most all the names you see don't participate anymore.   I have backed off at times myself.  Life gets in the way sometimes.

[YinTx]

14 hours ago, immiketoo said:

If you so see some examples, ask yourself if you’d like your work to look like theirs.

 

I was cogitating on this topic just the other day.  Here's my take, for what it's worth.  I've received tons of advice in my career.  I've learned to _always_ listen.  Even if it is crap advice and I know it.  Why?  Because usually after a bit of time, there will be something that I will come away with that is invaluable to me.  Even now, outside of my career, I seek advice, even if that person doesn't know it.  For example, I watched a youtube video of someone making yet another knife sheath, I liked the pattern, I liked the tooling pattern, I didn't particularly care for his style of tooling, but it was nice enough.  No, I don't want my work to look like theirs.  However, I saw a simple and ingenious way to attach a Sam Browne stud (maybe everyone else has seen it and done it, but I haven't, and I REALLY needed that technique for a customer's sheath that I am working on!).  Invaluable bit of info that will make my work so much better.  So,

Yes on "see some examples."  But no,  I don't always think I want my work to look like the example, but I will look for what is useful for me.  And kudos to them for being so gracious for sharing, despite those who might belittle them for not being the best in the world while they do it.  Because there are a lot of haters out there that cause folks to not share.

Also the best way to learn is to teach.  That means, some of the teachers are only just beginning to learn.  I'm all for letting that process progress.

Just my $0.02, don't know why I felt obligated to donate it this go round, but there it is.

And I've never given advice on how to do my wreckorative cuts!  But if you want to know how _not_ to do them, perhaps I could make a video....

YinTx

[Rockoboy]

22 minutes ago, YinTx said:

 I've received tons of advice in my career.  I've learned to _always_ listen.

I totally agree with all that has so far been written in this thread.

I have been on this website for a year or 2 now, and actively doing leatherwork for about the same time. Whilst I have achieved no masterclass in anything, I know what I like, and I can see some things that appeal, or lack appeal, to me.

Some things I have learnt by talking with and listening to knowledgeable people, or reading or watching videos, and some things I have discovered for myself.

15 hours ago, immiketoo said:

If you so see some examples, ask yourself if you’d like your work to look like theirs.

If somebody makes a suggestion, I do not necessarily discount their ideas based on their work. Maybe they have a good idea, but lack the dexterity to make the concept a work of art. 

At the end of the day, anything I suggest to somebody, can be ignored or absorbed, I do not care either way. If I have assisted somebody with a snippet of information, that is good. If they believe my advice is rubbish, so be it. Move on, and find another solution.

As for advice from others, I always listen in the 1st instance. The wisest man can gain insight from the youngest child. It can sometimes become apparent, that the "font of all knowledge" is a "wet dishcloth with no knowledge!"

[immiketoo]

10 hours ago, Riem said:

I completely agree with the sentiment that one should accept proffered advice with caution - "caveat emptor", after all - but isn't the logical conclusion of such a 'rule of thumb' that only the true masters would be able to answer us novices' questions?

I see LW.net as a campfire in cyberspace, where ideas are shared, and even the novice has a voice. And as around a campfire, sound judgement is required from the person seeking the advice. It does make for perhaps a slightly more robust discussion, because there is bound to be contrary ideas that will compete, with temperament and discussion styles playing as much of a role as sound advice...

Hope I'm making sense?

To be clear, I am not suggesting that people shouldn't offer their advice or experience, just that there some REALLY bad ideas floating out there and that those seem to have the loudest mouths.  Contrary ideas are what spurs discussion and I am all for that.  Also, a noob with a lot of experience in another area may come up with a genius idea that we haven't thought about before.

10 hours ago, terrymac said:

What is sad is there used to be a number of people on this site that when they gave advice or a suggestion, you could take it to the bank.   For whatever reasons they no longer participate.  I  can only guess the reasons.  I am sure Hidepounder got tired of trying to explain what Sheridan style carving truly is. He could go thru a complete explanation of why flowers and circles do not automatically translate to Sheridan and he might as well have been talking to a wall.  Charlie from Equs Leather used to be a regular contributor, but I will bet he got tired of arguing with people.  Oh well, nothing stays the same and life goes on.

Terry, I will tell you that I know of more than one person that has stopped "arguing with the masses," because despite their clear knowledge on a particular topic, someone with a heavy brow ridge will argue that their way is superior because reasons.  Despite their example looking like trash, they will not take the advice, so the skilled folks back off because they are sick of it and the loud mouth keeps on shouting.

7 hours ago, battlemunky said:

I'm guilty of a bit of over confidence and offering advice while not really being an expert on anything. I have done a lot of the techniques we use in the craft but have mastered few of them and I always try to qualify my answers to questions with my level of skill and to "wait a bit longer and others who know far more than I are likely to come along". I try not to step on any toes but still offer up advice on stuff I have some knowledge of. I try to never be definitive  in anything I say though because there are usually at least a few ways to skin the cat and likely I don't even know all those ways.

I appreciate most folks' opinions on this forum though. Yours especially Mike because you do put your money where your mouth is.

This is what makes this site and many others great.  It's ok to offer your experience, and its how many of us got where we are today.  You make a good point about definitive statements.  There are a thousand ways to do most things leather, and they all have varying degrees of success.  Saying this is the only way is usually wrong.  Not always, but usually.

3 hours ago, Tugadude said:

I've observed the same thing.  Just search topics from 5 years ago and you are amazed how many "regulars" have gone.  Go back further and most all the names you see don't participate anymore.   I have backed off at times myself.  Life gets in the way sometimes.

As I said before, people get tired of arguing with the know it all who can't see the flaws in their own work.  I think there is a significant shift to Facebook that occurred about 5 years ago as well. For better or for worse, there are a lot of pros there still sharing.  Instant gratification, perhaps?

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

I was cogitating on this topic just the other day.  Here's my take, for what it's worth.  I've received tons of advice in my career.  I've learned to _always_ listen.  Even if it is crap advice and I know it.  Why?  Because usually after a bit of time, there will be something that I will come away with that is invaluable to me.  Even now, outside of my career, I seek advice, even if that person doesn't know it.  For example, I watched a youtube video of someone making yet another knife sheath, I liked the pattern, I liked the tooling pattern, I didn't particularly care for his style of tooling, but it was nice enough.  No, I don't want my work to look like theirs.  However, I saw a simple and ingenious way to attach a Sam Browne stud (maybe everyone else has seen it and done it, but I haven't, and I REALLY needed that technique for a customer's sheath that I am working on!).  Invaluable bit of info that will make my work so much better.  So,

Yes on "see some examples."  But no,  I don't always think I want my work to look like the example, but I will look for what is useful for me.  And kudos to them for being so gracious for sharing, despite those who might belittle them for not being the best in the world while they do it.  Because there are a lot of haters out there that cause folks to not share.

Also the best way to learn is to teach.  That means, some of the teachers are only just beginning to learn.  I'm all for letting that process progress.

Just my $0.02, don't know why I felt obligated to donate it this go round, but there it is.

And I've never given advice on how to do my wreckorative cuts!  But if you want to know how _not_ to do them, perhaps I could make a video....

YinTx

This is a great perspective.  When I said do you want your work to look like theirs, I didn't mean exactly, but the parts.  For example, who wouldn't want their stitching to look like Nigels?  Or their Floral to look like Bobby or Akikos?  I am not belittling anyone who is willing to share.  This came from observing many threads on FB where I see knowledgeable people share their best methods and some goober shouting at the top of their lungs that their way is better and why spend the money on this expensive tool or that superior product.  Most recently, its been about how to cut leather, but the list is endless.  

As for teaching to learn, there is value in that statement, however, there is also the instant access to youtube where someone may lead a lot of new folks away from the craft on account of poor or unsafe demonstrations.

If you ever want to do a class on cuts, say the word!

12 minutes ago, Rockoboy said:

I totally agree with all that has so far been written in this thread.

I have been on this website for a year or 2 now, and actively doing leatherwork for about the same time. Whilst I have achieved no masterclass in anything, I know what I like, and I can see some things that appeal, or lack appeal, to me.

Some things I have learnt by talking with and listening to knowledgeable people, or reading or watching videos, and some things I have discovered for myself.

If somebody makes a suggestion, I do not necessarily discount their ideas based on their work. Maybe they have a good idea, but lack the dexterity to make the concept a work of art. 

At the end of the day, anything I suggest to somebody, can be ignored or absorbed, I do not care either way. If I have assisted somebody with a snippet of information, that is good. If they believe my advice is rubbish, so be it. Move on, and find another solution.

As for advice from others, I always listen in the 1st instance. The wisest man can gain insight from the youngest child. It can sometimes become apparent, that the "font of all knowledge" is a "wet dishcloth with no knowledge!"

You get it sir.  I have watched people from the beginning and some that I looked up to, I can now see the limitations in their work, while others continue to impress and spur me towards improving my own work.  I have learned a ton from others, but I have learned just as much by discovery from practice, and failure, as much as successes.  Being told pales in comparison to learning from doing.

Like you, I don't automatically discount someone if they are new, in fact, I listen carefully to them as they have an un-indoctrinated mind and much can be learned from a fresh perspective.  The youngest child in your example.  Wise words.  I am talking about your wet dishcloth.  You know, the guy who swears the carpet knife is the best secret in leather working since leather was invented, but has never tried a round knife.  You know the type.  Unwilling to try something new because they KNOW their way is best.  

 

[robs456]

When I joined the forum, nine years ago today actually, it was way different than it is today.
I managed to pick up stuff that propelled my skills and I learned things in months that others had worked years to develop. I don't see that a newbie can get the same leap from the advice given today. No offense guys...
Sure, the pinned posts and the videos everyone gets pointed to will help anyone that want to put the effort in to get better, but the 'masters' don't post here anymore.

It's great with a community that supports each other and all, but if someone posts in 'Critique' and asks how to improve his rather crooked stitching he'll get five 'your stitches look better than mine' and maybe one 'are you using a chisel?' replies. Not that helpful. 

I'd say that if you're new to leatherworking and just found the forum you should start by reading all pinned posts and then search for posts older than say five years before posting a question.

And that's some free advice you can take to the bank.... 

[chrisash]

In Great Yarmouth maybe 10-20 years ago (memory makes time hard to be precise) there was a painting shop for the tourists where they could pay to have a oil painting made just for themselves

The process was quick and quite different from what most people would consider a artist to do, what happened was there was about 8 artists all working in their own area of expertise The first would define the painting by a sketch, the second a expert in sky would paint the sky, next expert would fill in the sea, next the land next the chocolate box house and so on

Each was a expert painter of a very small detail  and could work very quickly turning out to a time limit

The end results whilst not acceptable to hang in a major gallery, were actually very good and pleasing pictures

Not sure what its got to do with this post but thought i would mention it

[immiketoo]

1 hour ago, robs456 said:

 

It's great with a community that supports each other and all, but if someone posts in 'Critique' and asks how to improve his rather crooked stitching he'll get five 'your stitches look better than mine' and maybe one 'are you using a chisel?' replies. Not that helpful. 

 

Yep, that is very true, especially on FB pages.  Do you think its because of the arguing or the sensitivity of people today?

 

[bermudahwin]

An interesting example is the recent query on stitching a belt loop for an ax head.

Logically people advised "a" was better than "b" because of "reasons". Others suggested alternate methods.

No one asked if the OP had done a test, and tried it. In industry (of many kinds, not just leatherwork) they mock up and make, test and change at design or pattern making stage, not on the finished one-off item. This is an issue for one-off production; if you design for more than one, you look at the process differently. Bespoke, hand-made, bench-made or factory all have differing ways to get to a very similar end product. Chrisash alludes well to this where people build up skills in a factory, for example as a clicker, assembler or sewing machinist.

I did not reply to the query, because my advice would have been counter to some that had already posted. Mine is based on historic method, tried and tested, as that is what I was taught, alongside factory production. There are other methods and they all work (to varying degrees) so is it best to offer many options or leave fewer, knowing that at least one will work?

In short, if my advice and your advice both worked, but were different, the advice seeker may be pleased, but you may be miffed as my advice and yours differed. Which circles back to how easy it is to offend nowadays.

That's why I don't post for critique... I am my biggest critic, and I KNOW I am ALWAYS right

Just my $0.02.

H

Edited February 15, 2019 by hwinbermuda
trying to make it make sense

[robs456]

2 hours ago, immiketoo said:

Yep, that is very true, especially on FB pages.  Do you think its because of the arguing or the sensitivity of people today?

 

Mostly the sensitivity. And the fact that people feel they have to be social on social media. That works on a food pic (Looks tasty!) but if asked for advice on stitching just shut up unless  you really know your stuff and have sound advice to give. The arguing comes when some fool is overconfident in his/her abilities....

[robs456]

2 hours ago, hwinbermuda said:

Which circles back to how easy it is to offend nowadays.

Yes. 

But I'd like to think of it as they're getting offended by me rather than me offending them.

 

[bermudahwin]

2 minutes ago, robs456 said:

Yes. 

But I'd like to think of it as they're getting offended by me rather than me offending them.

 

I like people to realize when I am offending them...

So yep, they're taking offence when none is intended.

[JLSleather]

22 hours ago, immiketoo said:

And, some is crap. Absolute crap. I’ve given a lot of advice over the years.

So WHO ARE these "masters" who gracefully bestowed the knowledge, and I ask to know how "far back" we would need to search.  I think I found this place about 6 er 7 years ago - don't really remember.  I knew leather before I got here, so I figured it was a win-win-win.  Either I could GET something (win) or give something (win) or we could have a friendly offhand conversation about leather stuff with others interested in leather (win).  

But, the posts with actual content certainly were ... outweighed.  I do not know who the "masters" were.  Stohlman, Pohja, Jennings, all dead before I was here.  Some would say Bob Park and Peter Main (and I've seen stunning work by both) but the only posts I've ever seen from those men was selling a class or a book.  Not that there's anything "wrong' with either of those things. And again, I DID ask how far we need to "go back".  Oh, and I STILL find that horse carving discussion GREAT stuff (Kate, wasn't it?) whether you call her a "master" or not.  And, some really skilled carvers you know of are off doing "endorsements" at Tandy or other conglomerate .. in fact many cases that's WHY you know of them.

Before long, I took a year(ish) off - just didn't use the site at all.  When I clicked on it again, I noticed some of the people who used to hang out weren't around any more.  Each his own, whatever. 

More clear was the fact that there were some sissy mary types who went from asking the most basic questions when I found the place to suddenly experts to be sought out for all things in the space of the year I was off doing actual leather work. I would add a little guy rolling on the floor laughing about that right here, except I just kaint seem to see it as funny, or amusing, or legit, or even rational, that somebody who spent his (her) day asking questions and getting free help and advice would then create a web site where he SELLS that same information he got for free 

I generally don't post those "i aint never dun that but if it was me" posts - if it doesn't concern me, then it doesn't.

Other hand, I don't post those "I'm the one who decides what is acceptable" posts ....

In fact, I really posted in this thread mainly because this right here was knee-slappin' funny  ↓

20 hours ago, Rustwa said:

why it doesn't work for me must be the intellectual portion cause it sure ain't for the lack of throwing money at it.

SO THEN:  I'll check back on occasion maybe see if we have an answer for whose advice we should have, and how far we need to go back in time to get it.  And wonder why for years, I always auto want to spell occasion with one 'c' and two 's' .. it's just weird.

[immiketoo]

 

[GeneH]

7 hours ago, hwinbermuda said:

An interesting example is the recent query on stitching a belt loop for an ax head.

Logically people advised "a" was better than "b" because of "reasons". Others suggested alternate methods.

No one asked if the OP had done a test, and tried it. In industry (of many kinds, not just leatherwork) they mock up and make, test and change at design or pattern making stage, not on the finished one-off item. This is an issue for one-off production; if you design for more than one, you look at the process differently. 

....

That's why I don't post for critique... I am my biggest critic, and I KNOW I am ALWAYS right

Just my $0.02.

H

I *REALLY* have to get in on this conversation now, because that was my post! (Sorry for the long quote, but it's relevant)

Seems none of my family gets the irony when I say, "You're not going to win this argument with me because I'm convinced I'm right." LOL 

You mentioned, "advice would have been counter to some that had already posted."   That's not always counter productive - the (IMO) value is being able to articulate *why*.  Advice like, "huh.works for me" is somewhat useless as everyone (including yourself) in this discussion already knows. "Under these _________ conditions, failure is probably not going to be a problem."  or "Well, if you try to hang from a tree, might think twice, otherwise, NP."

Your opinion of empirical/historical evidence and testing is valid, but may not apply here. Let me emphasise, "may."  Won't know without being said, right? 

I received varying and clear options, opinions, suggestions, and appreciated every one of them, yours no less than any.

Good thread. Thanks for the invite, H.

 

[immiketoo]

12 minutes ago, GeneH said:

 

You mentioned, "advice would have been counter to some that had already posted."   That's not always counter productive - the (IMO) value is being able to articulate *why*. 

 

Your opinion of empirical/historical evidence and testing is valid, but may not apply here. Let me emphasise, "may."  Won't know without being said, right? 

 

Good thread. Thanks for the invite, H.

 

Contrary advice is sometimes exactly what is needed.  Mostly to counter the BS that someone else just said.  Or, it may show you an alternate but complimentary way of doing things.  Sometimes, you get piece one form person a, piece two from person b and so on.

Testing and evidence changes for a lot of things simply based on location.  For example, I hear all the time to let your resist "dry 24 hours after applying six coats" and then you're ready to antique.  I apply ONE coat and maybe wait an hour, if I have the patience to wait that long.  It always works in my environment with my products.  Others using the exact same stuff have less effective results.  Why?  The weather.  Ambient humidity and temperature make a huge difference in how it works, although I have never needed 24 hours to let anything dry in leatherwork.

Any advice is useless if you don't apply it to your specific application.  

 

[Riem]

I really, really like this discussion. The self-critical look at the community is great, refreshing and self-renewing. Good stuff. What has been implied but not overtly said is that the type of person who joins the group and starts posting has also changed. When I joined - think roughly two years ago - I took time, a couple of months in fact, to read a ton of the older posts. Particularly the "How do I do that" and "Leatherwork conversation" forums contain an absolute treasure trove of information for the novice with the patience and inclination to read and ponder. And the depth of contribution in the older threads is stunning. I got the impression (I still have it) of people who wanted to help while at the same time conveying wider, more contextual knowledge.

in the more recent posts I get the impression that the questions are far narrower - and without trying to sound like a know-it-all - and lacking in depth than those I read in the earlier posts. So isn't part of the issue that the way we nowadays approach asking questions has been changed? Look at how many newcomers state in their profiles that Google led them here - they are in the first place already far more informed (sometimes wrongly informed) when they arrive here, and are joining to confirm a preconceived idea or to help shape it. I've seen threads where the questions from someone who says they're a novice were so well defined that it's clear that LW.net was clearly not their first point of call.

So I think the forum is also faced with a different type of new joiner, who asks questions differently.

Again, I'm a novice. I have not been part of the community for long. I have seen some replies where I thought "that can't be right" or "no way Jose". And I've seen quite a lot of threads where a question have gone unanswered - more so lately than in earlier threads. Still, I don't have the overwhelming impression that the forum is in drastic decline. More likely it's settling down, growing some ivy on the walls, perhaps needing a shingle to be replaced here and there. If anything, it needs each one of us who benefit from the sharing here to act as guardians of the whole forum. It needs contributors with experience and patience and well developed BS filters and a clear voice who can call out the fallacies without igniting the flames. A huge task and ask.

My 0.02c on a rainy night, with with the soft, soothing sound of the heavens bestowing grace upon the earth in my ears. Off to sleep for me.

 

[immiketoo]

21 minutes ago, Riem said:

I really, really like this discussion. The self-critical look at the community is great, refreshing and self-renewing. Good stuff. What has been implied but not overtly said is that the type of person who joins the group and starts posting has also changed. When I joined - think roughly two years ago - I took time, a couple of months in fact, to read a ton of the older posts. Particularly the "How do I do that" and "Leatherwork conversation" forums contain an absolute treasure trove of information for the novice with the patience and inclination to read and ponder. And the depth of contribution in the older threads is stunning. I got the impression (I still have it) of people who wanted to help while at the same time conveying wider, more contextual knowledge.

in the more recent posts I get the impression that the questions are far narrower - and without trying to sound like a know-it-all - and lacking in depth than those I read in the earlier posts. So isn't part of the issue that the way we nowadays approach asking questions has been changed? Look at how many newcomers state in their profiles that Google led them here - they are in the first place already far more informed (sometimes wrongly informed) when they arrive here, and are joining to confirm a preconceived idea or to help shape it. I've seen threads where the questions from someone who says they're a novice were so well defined that it's clear that LW.net was clearly not their first point of call.

So I think the forum is also faced with a different type of new joiner, who asks questions differently.

Again, I'm a novice. I have not been part of the community for long. I have seen some replies where I thought "that can't be right" or "no way Jose". And I've seen quite a lot of threads where a question have gone unanswered - more so lately than in earlier threads. Still, I don't have the overwhelming impression that the forum is in drastic decline. More likely it's settling down, growing some ivy on the walls, perhaps needing a shingle to be replaced here and there. If anything, it needs each one of us who benefit from the sharing here to act as guardians of the whole forum. It needs contributors with experience and patience and well developed BS filters and a clear voice who can call out the fallacies without igniting the flames. A huge task and ask.

My 0.02c on a rainy night, with with the soft, soothing sound of the heavens bestowing grace upon the earth in my ears. Off to sleep for me.

 

Amen, Riem.  You get it.