Help with pricing

[Frodo]

A guy wants me to make him a 24 x 12 x 12 ''  range bag with 6 pockets  and shoulder strap

my material cost from slc is $85.00

I am trying to figure out a FAIR price to charge him AND make a profit

Thoughts?

[mikesc]

1) If you are doing it as a business, you'd have to calculate in all your "overheads" ( light ,power, insurance, lease, or what you have to pay for the place you are doing it in etc etc ) and then say "to begin with it costs me this much"..then do part 2 and add that result to part 1..But..

2) If you are doing it as a friend" or for "a guy"..then take what materials are going to cost you $85.00 ,Then work out how long ( hours doing just that ) it is going to take you to make it..then add on at least half as long again ( because at the early days of working on anything that you haven't done before, it always takes at least half as long again as you'd think ) then decide how much you want to be paid per hour  .. That is how much "minimum" you need to ask...then add any taxes that you might have to pay on the money that he pays you if he pays by cheque etc..

[chrisash]

I am always amazed by the prices some people charge for quite normal products like wallets, belts and pouches etc, whilst retail outlets sell many similar items at a maybe 50% or less of the artisan worker charges, with often little or no difference in quality and often the retail outlet has better finish, but presumably lower prices caused by mass manufacturing and bulk buying.

I assume that it must be near impossible for artisans to make a living doing just one or two items at a time and great effort in selling, by living I mean in the UK the minimum wage currently £8.21 per hour. I think the living wage whatever that is , is about £10.50 per hour

Edited October 4, 2019 by chrisash

[mikesc]

Retail outlets are buying from Asia..or buying from wholesalers who are buying from Asia, or buying from wholesalers , who are buying from importers who are buying from Asia..I can order leather goods, clothing , wallets, belts, briefcases, BDSM, you name it , right now from Asia..wonderful quality, great real leather top grain hides, beautiful workmanship, great designs..for less than 10% of the retail price before VAT that you see in retail outlets..and unless they are making it to my design ( in which case the delay will be 3 to 6 weeks* including airfreight ) it will be delivered to my door at the middle of next week by the latest..all customs cleared an taxes paid by the delivery company..I just have to write them a cheque ( or use the pre paid account ) for any taxes that were added by Customs..and they hand over the merchandise...The Asian companies ( all of them will either sew the labels that say mikesc or chrisash in Asia, likewise they'll sew in  labels that say made in UK or made in France or made in USA ) or they'll ship the labels separately and they can be sewn in once the goods have passed customs..Customs anywhere have no problems at all with goods coming in which have no country of origin marked on the goods, as long as it is on the paperwork..That is how most of the big brands source what they sell, and how most of the wholesalers and importers work..

Some of the companies in the destination countries do have the true country of origin in each item that they sell, very many do not...You can see this on any street market, behind all the stands there are boxes  of Made in China..and on the goods..99% of the time, no country of origin..the same in Supermarket or high street retailers wharehouses behind the shops..

Think of any brand..go to their website..see if they tell you where it is made..rarely will they say..even more rarely will they say the Asian country..

Some of the most Iconic Brands that you can think of in the EU, UK , or USA, will merely say "imported". if they say anything at all...others will outright lie...

Or cover their items and their sites with nationalistic imagery, and talk of heritage, and tradition, and sell you Asian made goods at 10 times what they paid for them...If you pay 500 USD or 500€ or 500£..per item ..they pay 50..I have a long time friend based in Asia who works OEM for many of the biggest Brands, making their leather garments and a huge amount of motorcycle gear, jackets to wallets to bags and gloves...Another who specialises in leather cases and maroquinerie of all sorts ..and another ( brother of the first guy ) who I had forgotten about, who makes most of the official balls used in most of the official leagues of various ball games world wide..he also makes leather work for uniforms, sporrans and belts etc..Got a box of his samples behind me..some of his brothers jackets and waistcoats hanging on the wall here..

There is still a market for artisanal work, not made in Asia, but it has to be very good, well made, and it has to be different ..or bespoke..and if it gets to be fashionable..then the Western retailers will be in touch with the Asian manufacturers to get close copies made and back to them so that they can "cash in" as soon as possible..sometimes it can be ( in the fashion industry ) as fast as on the Couturier show catwalk on Monday, close copies in the High street shops and major fashion websites by Friday..

*If you pay a premium, or order a large amount..you can get even your own, or someone else's designs made and shipped back to you within less than a week..and as anyone knows who has ever been to places like Singapore, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, you can be measured up in the morning, and you can go back the same afternoon or the next morning and the 3 piece suit, or jacket, or dress for the ladies will be ready..you can show them a sketch, or a photo..and it is done..you can get the same for shoes..I knew a shoemaker in Malta ..24 hours for a pair of shoes..and if you were really prepared to pay..you could have them back within the same day of him measuring your feet..

Edited October 4, 2019 by mikesc

[Hildebrand]

I am very much just a hobbyist.  I have looked around my area and we have a couple leather professionals.  Any holsters or other things I sell I make sure not to undercut them as long as my quality is where it should be.  If I do sell something for a little less, I make sure the individual knows that is a one time price and point out whatever flaw I was not happy with.

Todd

Edited October 4, 2019 by Hildebrand
grammer

[toxo]

On 10/4/2019 at 4:41 PM, mikesc said:

Retail outlets are buying from Asia..or buying from wholesalers who are buying from Asia, or buying from wholesalers , who are buying from importers who are buying from Asia..I can order leather goods, clothing , wallets, belts, briefcases, BDSM, you name it , right now from Asia..wonderful quality, great real leather top grain hides, beautiful workmanship, great designs..for less than 10% of the retail price before VAT that you see in retail outlets..and unless they are making it to my design ( in which case the delay will be 3 to 6 weeks* including airfreight ) it will be delivered to my door at the middle of next week by the latest..all customs cleared an taxes paid by the delivery company..I just have to write them a cheque ( or use the pre paid account ) for any taxes that were added by Customs..and they hand over the merchandise...The Asian companies ( all of them will either sew the labels that say mikesc or chrisash in Asia, likewise they'll sew in  labels that say made in UK or made in France or made in USA ) or they'll ship the labels separately and they can be sewn in once the goods have passed customs..Customs anywhere have no problems at all with goods coming in which have no country of origin marked on the goods, as long as it is on the paperwork..That is how most of the big brands source what they sell, and how most of the wholesalers and importers work..

Some of the companies in the destination countries do have the true country of origin in each item that they sell, very many do not...You can see this on any street market, behind all the stands there are boxes  of Made in China..and on the goods..99% of the time, no country of origin..the same in Supermarket or high street retailers wharehouses behind the shops..

Think of any brand..go to their website..see if they tell you where it is made..rarely will they say..even more rarely will they say the Asian country..

Some of the most Iconic Brands that you can think of in the EU, UK , or USA, will merely say "imported". if they say anything at all...others will outright lie...

Or cover their items and their sites with nationalistic imagery, and talk of heritage, and tradition, and sell you Asian made goods at 10 times what they paid for them...If you pay 500 USD or 500€ or 500£..per item ..they pay 50..I have a long time friend based in Asia who works OEM for many of the biggest Brands, making their leather garments and a huge amount of motorcycle gear, jackets to wallets to bags and gloves...Another who specialises in leather cases and maroquinerie of all sorts ..and another ( brother of the first guy ) who I had forgotten about, who makes most of the official balls used in most of the official leagues of various ball games world wide..he also makes leather work for uniforms, sporrans and belts etc..Got a box of his samples behind me..some of his brothers jackets and waistcoats hanging on the wall here..

There is still a market for artisanal work, not made in Asia, but it has to be very good, well made, and it has to be different ..or bespoke..and if it gets to be fashionable..then the Western retailers will be in touch with the Asian manufacturers to get close copies made and back to them so that they can "cash in" as soon as possible..sometimes it can be ( in the fashion industry ) as fast as on the Couturier show catwalk on Monday, close copies in the High street shops and major fashion websites by Friday..

*If you pay a premium, or order a large amount..you can get even your own, or someone else's designs made and shipped back to you within less than a week..and as anyone knows who has ever been to places like Singapore, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, you can be measured up in the morning, and you can go back the same afternoon or the next morning and the 3 piece suit, or jacket, or dress for the ladies will be ready..you can show them a sketch, or a photo..and it is done..you can get the same for shoes..I knew a shoemaker in Malta ..24 hours for a pair of shoes..and if you were really prepared to pay..you could have them back within the same day of him measuring your feet..

Spot on Mike. And you taught me a new word.

Maroquinerie. Who'da thought it.

[NVLeatherWorx]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:04 AM, chrisash said:

I am always amazed by the prices some people charge for quite normal products like wallets, belts and pouches etc, whilst retail outlets sell many similar items at a maybe 50% or less of the artisan worker charges, with often little or no difference in quality and often the retail outlet has better finish, but presumably lower prices caused by mass manufacturing and bulk buying.

I assume that it must be near impossible for artisans to make a living doing just one or two items at a time and great effort in selling, by living I mean in the UK the minimum wage currently £8.21 per hour. I think the living wage whatever that is , is about £10.50 per hour

They aren't charging for the normality of the product it is the work that goes into it.  And I would be interested in knowing where you are seeing a quality from a mass-produced item that is similar or, even equal according to you, to that of an Artisan made item.  I have been around the world many times and have NEVER come across a true handmade item that was ever similar in appearance or quality to that of the mass-produced crap that some makers think they need to compete against.  You either know what your doing and do it very well or you are just another shingle hanger that calls themselves a craftsman.

[chrisash]

With due respect to your skills, I would ask you to buy a few of the cheap imported items and take them apart, Yes they are mass produced to keep the price down, and also to avoid learning many skills like you have, they use modern production methods where maybe one person sews one part of the product, then next person does the next part and so on, each a expert in their part but maybe poor in any other area.

When you have taken it apart you see its actually well made with consistent stitching, glueing etc, the only area they save in is normally the leather maybe using split or working with a lower grade with some tiny normally unseen flaws or tick marks

Many people make single items very well but at a huge cost in man hours, where mass production means far better use of manpower time without compromising quality

With the exception of Tooling, If you make standard pancake holster at one at a time, If for instance you made 5 the same you could probably make all five in just over twice the time it takes to make one, obviously some guns are so rare its not worth having that number on the shelf, but say for a 1911 model it could pay dividends

Some items from all countries are totally crap, but you cannot just right off a hole country by a few poor makers. Made in either the USA, France, UK, Japan, China is not a sign of quality, some products will be poor, from each country will be excellent products