Tying thin thread to needles

[Panzerradeo]

Hey all. I'm using size 004 JJ saddlers harness needles and #8 Vinymo MBT thread. Since I can't tie it on like you would ritza25 by piercing the thread (or maybe you can and I'm just awful), I've been using a clinch knot. It works but it doesn't give the smallest knot. Is there a better way?

[tsunkasapa]

I have never tied the thread to the needle. Nor have I ever used the 'pierce' technique. I just thread it and sew with it, never had an issue.

[Panzerradeo]

1 hour ago, tsunkasapa said:

I have never tied the thread to the needle. Nor have I ever used the 'pierce' technique. I just thread it and sew with it, never had an issue.

Not to be rude but how the heck are you able to keep the thread on the needle . Both threads come right off when working at any decent speed. Especially with vinymo MBT because it doesn't have a thick wax coating like tiger thread.

[GatoGordo]

Vinymo thread is twisted. What I do is to give it a little back twist to open the thread and then pierce it just like you do with the Ritza thread.

[Matt S]

 

12 minutes ago, Panzerradeo said:

Not to be rude but how the heck are you able to keep the thread on the needle . Both threads come right off when working at any decent speed. Especially with vinymo MBT because it doesn't have a thick wax coating like tiger thread.

Something I learned from somewhere (probably Nigel Artimage) is not to pull the thread all the way through by the needle. Once you've got about an inch of thread "out the other side" let go of the needle and pinch both threads between your thumb and forefinger, *then* pull. This reduces wear and tear on the thread where it goes through the eye (which with linen can wear out before you run out of thread  ), it gives you finer control over thread tension, and it reduces the tendency for the thread to slip out the eye of the needle.

[tsunkasapa]

19 minutes ago, Panzerradeo said:

Not to be rude but how the heck are you able to keep the thread on the needle . Both threads come right off when working at any decent speed. Especially with vinymo MBT because it doesn't have a thick wax coating like tiger thread.

Well, for one thing, I only sew with linen or hemp. I won't use plastic thread.

[Panzerradeo]

3 minutes ago, Matt S said:

 

Something I learned from somewhere (probably Nigel Artimage) is not to pull the thread all the way through by the needle. Once you've got about an inch of thread "out the other side" let go of the needle and pinch both threads between your thumb and forefinger, *then* pull. This reduces wear and tear on the thread where it goes through the eye (which with linen can wear out before you run out of thread  ), it gives you finer control over thread tension, and it reduces the tendency for the thread to slip out the eye of the needle.

I pull by the thread but when you're using a fine thread like .4 or .5, it can still work it's way out easily. Especially on a long run of stitching. I'm going to try Gatos method. If that doesn't work, I'll give the no tying method a go. I appreciate the ideas to all that answered!

[Matt S]

4 minutes ago, Panzerradeo said:

I pull by the thread but when you're using a fine thread like .4 or .5, it can still work it's way out easily. Especially on a long run of stitching. I'm going to try Gatos method. If that doesn't work, I'll give the no tying method a go. I appreciate the ideas to all that answered!

I would definitely recommend locking the needle onto the thread in that way too if you can, with 1-3 passes though. However if you pinch both bits of thread (the "live end" and the bit between the needle and the leather) right behind the eye it's pretty much impossible for the thread to slip out the eye, locked on or not. You also retain full control of the needle.

[fredk]

8 hours ago, Panzerradeo said:

Hey all. I'm using size 004 JJ saddlers harness needles and #8 Vinymo MBT thread. Since I can't tie it on like you would ritza25 by piercing the thread (or maybe you can and I'm just awful), I've been using a clinch knot. It works but it doesn't give the smallest knot. Is there a better way?

I've had success with thin thread, on short sewing runs, by threading the needle, giving about 2 inches of free length, folding that back on to the main length then rubbing in bees wax and then rolling the needle and thread on the work bench, pressing it together to get one smooth length of coated thread. Takes longer to write this than actually doing it.

btw; If I can I always pierce thread to lock it on a needle. afair I picked that method up from an Al Stohlman book

 

[chrisash]

I just use a long tail which also gives the advantage that there is less thread to pull through at each stitch

[Tugadude]

I don't think any have given the "trick", which if you study the following picture shows clearly what you want to happen.  Yes, you twist the thread to open the strands, but you should pierce the thread twice, that's the key in my opinion.  If you do it once, it tends to come off after a little while.

[Panzerradeo]

7 hours ago, Tugadude said:

I don't think any have given the "trick", which if you study the following picture shows clearly what you want to happen.  Yes, you twist the thread to open the strands, but you should pierce the thread twice, that's the key in my opinion.  If you do it once, it tends to come off after a little while.

That's what I do with ritza because it's thick enough. I'm having a hell of a time with thinner thread like vinymo #8. It's tiny thread

[toxo]

I also don't fix the thread. When you fix the thread eventually the thread wears thin in places. Not fixing the thread means the "wear point" moves and the thread doesn't get frazzled.

[zuludog]

I've been watching this Thread (no pun intended) for a while, and you seem to have answered it well enough; nevertheless, here are my comments

I tried the standard traditional method of piercing the thread with the needles and locking it on when I started doing leatherwork, but very soon I didn't bother as my stitching was about the same whichever I did

I've settled on a method which is a sort of combination of those by Chrisash and Toxo -- depending on the thickness of the leather I use JJ L3912 /002 or JJ L3912 /004 , or Tandy Big Eye needles ; and linen or synthetic 0,45mm or 0,6mm or 0,8 to 1,0mm thread; either ready waxed or DIY waxed

0,6mm and 0,8 to 1,0mm thread is usually a tight enough fit in the appropriate needle that I don't need to lock it on. I use 0,45mm thread in JJ L3912/ 004 needles, and that's usually OK if I give it an extra waxing. Waxing usually means there is enough friction that the needle doesn't fall off  by itself; I start with a long tail but it's still easy enough to move the needle along as the thread is used up, which, as mentioned, prevents a wear point on the thread

I've never used Vinymo #8 MBT thread, but I see that it's 0,43mm diameter. Why not try waxing it yourself, and see how you go on without piercing/locking on?

I've just re-read the replies, especially by MattS. I realise that without thinking about it I have always pulled the thread by the needle at first, just enough to reveal enough thread so that you can let go of the needle and do all the rest of the pulling on the thread itself - it just seems logical, to reduce the wear point where the thread passes through the eye; I also think it gives me more control over the tension, and how tight I can pull the tread. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by zuludog

[mike02130]

I use the 004 needles with #8 Vinymo.  I use the same method as Tugadude's picture.  I thread the needle then hold the thread between my thumb and fore finger then pierce the thread with the needle 3 times.  I then scooch it up towards the eye and hold the two pieces and pull it up over the head of the needle.  Hold the loop of thread at the needle and tug-a-bit (no relation to Tugadude) to tighten.  Vinymo is unwaxed.  Wax it first.

[mike02130]

11 hours ago, chrisash said:

I just use a long tail which also gives the advantage that there is less thread to pull through at each stitch

What is this long tail method?  Thanks.

[zuludog]

9 minutes ago, mike02130 said:

What is this long tail method?  Thanks.

No doubt Chrisash will respond in due course, but for me, it means that instead of only having 2 or 3 inches of thread passed through the eye, I pull a lot more, so that the thread is almost completely folded back on itself, with only a few inches of single thread forming the actual saddle stitch. Then as you work and use up the thread, just keep moving the needles along, constantly shortening the tail

This method only works if the thread is free and unlocked

Edited December 5, 2021 by zuludog

[mike02130]

15 minutes ago, zuludog said:

No doubt Chrisash will respond in due course, but for me, it means that instead of only having 2 or 3 inches of thread passed through the eye, I pull a lot more, so that the thread is almost completely folded back on itself, with only a few inches of single thread forming the actual saddle stitch. Then as you work and use up the thread, just keep moving the needles along, constantly shortening the tail

This method only works if the thread is free and unlocked

Hmm, I don't get it. Say I have 6' of thread, I would pull say 4' (2' each needle) of thread that is hanging out the needle?  If so, when I sew, the hanging thread would follow through the hole, wouldn't it?  Obviously I don't understand.

[Sheilajeanne]

Mike, having a long tail on the thread greatly lessens the chance of you pulling the thread off the needle. 

[zuludog]

1 hour ago, mike02130 said:

Hmm, I don't get it. Say I have 6' of thread, I would pull say 4' (2' each needle) of thread that is hanging out the needle?  If so, when I sew, the hanging thread would follow through the hole, wouldn't it?  Obviously I don't understand.

If I knew how to make a video, I would; but let's try with words

I've just measured one of my fold - over knife sheaths, and the total length of the line of stitching is 8 inches. I use 5 X that length to calculate the total amount of thread I will need = 40" That will give me enough to thread the needle and some backstitching 

So there will be 20" thread on each side of the seam. As mentioned, I'm not locking the thread, just passing it through the eye, so the fold over could be anywhere along that length of 20"

If you just fold over to leave a 2" tail emerging from the eye, you will have a working length of 18". When you start to sew you will pull  the 18" working length plus the 2" tail through the stitch hole....but the 2" will come through with the 18", so the total distance you need to pull is 18"

But if you have a tail of 9" then the working length is 20 - 9 = 11", which means you only need to pull 11" through the stitching hole, as the tail will come with it

Thus by making the tail fairly long you don't have to pull as much thread through the stitching hole....and as the length of the single strand/working length is reduced as you sew, you slide the needle along a bit so you still have the longest tail you can get away with..... which means, as Sheilajeanne states, there is less chance of the needle sliding off the end of the thread

Hmmm....if anyone understands what I'm trying to explain, and thinks they can do it better, please do!

Edited December 6, 2021 by zuludog

[toxo]

Spot on zulu.

[fredk]

verily, interesting. I must try this way on my next project

[tsunkasapa]

1 hour ago, mike02130 said:

What is this long tail method?  Thanks.

I use about 4-5 inches of free tail. I've never pulled the thread out of a needle.

Edited December 6, 2021 by tsunkasapa

[zuludog]

OK, another couple of comments --

By not locking the needle & thread you rely on the fact that waxed thread creates enough friction that the needle will not slide off the end of the thread if you let go of the needle. This means you must use needles with a small eye for the thread

As you use up the thread in the saddle stitch, by shortening the tail you are moving the fold over along the thread, thus you don't get a weak or worn spot on the fold over at the eye 

Edited December 6, 2021 by zuludog

[mike02130]

Oh okay, I thought this was some trick method to not pull a whole length of thread through the holes as you sew.  But it has to do with the the thread around the eye of the needle from wearing out or the knot failing, right?  Duh, I understand.  

I don't usually have any issue with the thread in the eye of the needle.  I use poly thread less than .5mm in diameter.  When threading the needle I pierce the thread 3 times and then go through the eye of the needle and then pull it tight like in Tugadudes picture.  Occasionally the thread will come loose and if I catch it in time, I can just pull and tighten it up.

After rereading everything, now I understand what Chrisash said about less pulling.  But if I had a long tail, would that prevent me from casting?  I'll experiment tomorrow.  Thanks everyone for your help.  I'm feeling kinda dumb, now.

Edited December 6, 2021 by mike02130
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