bruce johnson

GH, At least for me, the pearl apron splits just are the better choice. I have had guys try the cordura ones, and had nails stick through the weave and pin a guy to the hoof. I have had guys try the thinner chap leather ones with mulehide knee patches and had nails stick through the softer leathers. These same guys say they haven't had a nail penetrate mulehide. I am sure someone has, but it just seems the mulehide has stood the test of usage a little more. Any of the grained leathers are going to wear away with a rasp, and the softer ones are maybe going to open up there. The grained leathers get rough and look worse, and the roughout mulehide wears smooth and looks better. What's up with that?! The biggest complaint is that some mulehide is pretty stiff and some isn't. The stiffer stuff is a pain to deal with sticking out in front of your knee until it breaks in and drapes. I buy my mulehide from Siegels. I use the lighter weight for the body, and ask for them to pick something more to the soft side. I use the heavier weight for the leg patches. Mine are actually a stripe that cross the entire thigh rather than a patch inside and just over the knee. The stiffer and wider patch seems to give them some relief for the guys who don't use a hoof stand, and finish off on their knee or crawl under the back and finish the outside of the hoof on their thigh. I can then make the magnet covers and knife pockets from the softer light weight trimmings. I also like the larger scraps of the softer stuff for lining strainer plates. It lasts way longer than what some companies stick under there. The long pieces I cut horn wraps from, and the heavier ones I can split down to wrap easier. Finally mulehide is pretty cost effective compared to some of the other leathers.

Another source for sheepskins is Siegel's. I was using the Lazy Ms and liked them much better than I could get anywhere else. I took a swatch down to Siegels when I went to visit and showed it to Steve. He started getting these LMs in, and I have found them to be as good as the Lazy Ms. The color is more to the golden side like most others, rather than the orangish tint of the Lazy Ms. Usual deal of Siegel's shipping included pricing is a plus for me too.

Johanna, I have seen those on the wall in shops where guys do shoe and boot repair. I don't know if they were a give-away deal or they bought them. Probably would be good for checking sole leather weight, ot something hard like that. I have one of the little caliper-dial models that works pretty well. I think I got it from TLF. I have it hanging within an easy reach of the splitters and use it quite a bit.

kypeep, No rules on what anybody uses under the gullet. Some use nails all the way, others might use screws in the front and the point of the skirt up in the handhole, with nails under the fork. For screws I use #10 SS oval head Phillips wood screws from the local happy hardware man. I use 1-1/2" front and back, and 1" under the fork. On the front and handhole I use finishing washers with them. I use them without washers under the gullet. I predrill them most of the length and use a spike to set the hole. If you drill pretty slow, you can avoid rolling up the wool and sheepskin around the drill bit as much. If you wind up the fake stuff, it will tear and you will say bad words. As far as nails. I have taken out common nails, cement coated nails, box nails, ring shanks, and screw shank deck nails. I haven't seen lathe nails for a while. As far as cleaning and conditioning, there is a reason that there are a couple hundred things to use. Be sparing with what ever you use. You can over oil easy enough, we all have. Just because it soaks up oil pretty fast doesn't mean it is in need of more. I go more by feel. I quit about when I think I am half way there. By the next day, I am usually glad I quit then.

kypeep, I got the pictures to open up. If you save them as a jpeg, they should upload and open directly. Someone more computer literate can help with that. I don't know Coats's numbering system, but I would suspect made in 1999 also. Lift the front jockeys and we should be able to tell you more. I used to cut a little. I worked for Keith Barnett during college. That was special time, he had a non pro customer who was showing Doc's Starlight (mother of the "Starlights") and an old campaigner named Kingstream, that I recall might have come from Cletus originally through Tootie Lyons. Some of the great sires of the modern horses were showing then. I appreciate what I was seeing more now than then. Thanks for the compliment on my little paint. He was the coolest, guttiest horse I have ever had. I got him as a junior rodeo horse for my son. He had a little too much motor and I started showing him at some club cuttings. The pic is from the Paint World Show when I showed him in the senior open and amateur there. He was a cool rope horse too, he'd pull a dragger out of a well. You always regret selling the one good we are all supposed to have in our lifetime.

Kypeep, Cletus Hulling, that name is a blast from the past. Ditto what JW said about most competent repair shops being able to do the fix. Larry Coats has a couple lines of saddles and I am not sure how the skirts are attached. About the only time this is a major thing is if a maker's skirts are sewn up to pocketed bars by machine. I have had two that the stitch line tore out through the skirts - postage stamp style, and this meant new skirts. Most of the time though it is a thread wear problem, the skirts are fine, and resewing is all that's needed. If it is lugs, even easier, pull some new ones through and stick them to the tree with the fastener of choice. It would be worth having a shop go through the saddle and make sure the tree, riggings, and leathers are OK too. Once something starts to wear, you can bet that something else has some wear on it too.

Ian, Joseph Samstag opened the Samstag Saddlery in Visalia CA in the 1850s. The rigging pattern became known as the Sam Stag rigging, Sam Stagg rigging, and Sam Stack rigging. He died in 1913, but not sure how long the shop was in business. Because of the name confusion, some of the writers of the saddlemaking books have stated that there wasn't a Sam Stag/Stagg/Stack. I am not sure I have seen a Samstag saddle in a musuem that I recognised, but would have to suspect the Autrey Museum would be a good bet for locating one.

This is some kind of cool. I like it all, and especially the rawhide loop. I know, everybody is nuts over the scrollwork and applique braiding, and I like the rawhide loop. I've just never seen it quite like that. I can see a few other places I can use that loop to finish off a closure and not go to the silver. I have about a weeks worth of catch up, and then I am thinking I'll show my wife that pic. She'll be wanting one. How did you finish off the backside?

Luke, I had one and it was adequate. The blade was pretty OK, a little bit steep on the bevel, but held an edge alright. The issues were that with the depth guide on, it wouldn't raise the roller up closer than 5 oz thickness to the blade. The roller/blade was not an exact marriage. One side was a bit lower. on narrow straps this was not an issue for me. I sold it to a machinist and he tuned it up by grinding down the area the blade seats on to split thinner and evened up the blade-roller relationship. He also did some fine-tuning on the guide. If you are dead set on that pattern of splitter, aren't a machinist, and want new, I'd save another couple hundred and buy a Keystone from Campbell-Bosworth. For the $300, you can find some good used Osborne 84s or other old workhorse models from someone.

Steve, I am with Darcy and you. Pure NF oil and TanKote. I had a problem with not labeling a squeeze bottle. I put Resolene on my calf roping saddle. Ryan Cope and Dennis and David saw it when they were here. It made a sticky oozing mess on the tooled corners, the basket stamping has stayed OK. I figured eventually the dust would absorb enough of the ooze to be OK. It finally did, but is a hard crust now. Thumbs down from me on Resolene. One of these days I am going to soap it up and see if it will clean up. On the roughouts I oil and then use a light application of Williams, let it solar age for a couple days, and do a second application. I haven't had a bleedoff like I got sometimes with Saddle Butter or Hide Rejuvenater used on roughout.

Tammy, I have been down that road a little. Not too long after I got into this as a business, I started getting wholesale orders. I made a lot of mistakes. First off, the standard retail price is doubling the wholesale price. In my case, something like spur straps that comparably sold for $30 meant my wholesale price was $15 - materials and labor. Not a huge moneymaker, and in retrospect, not any kind of a money maker. I priced some other things the same. I didn't do the math because some stuff did pay well and carried the losers. The checkbook looked OK, so everything seemed fine. Unfortunately I didn't identify the losers right off the bat. I was too busy losing money in volumes and mkaing it up on singles to do the math to see that. Once I got that little item straightened out and some advice, I restructured the pricing. I added up the materials and waste and the unaccounted for things like thread oil and finish. I added a markup on that for the materials cost. That gave me a total materials cost, and that was not negotiable. I then added up my labor and shop rate. I set two rates - one for custom retail orders and one for the wholesale and award orders. When I knew the times involved, then I could add materials and the appicable time and rate to set the prices. Some things were heavy on materials and shorter on labor, but most went the other way. It ended up so that the wholesale price was often 3/4 of the custom price. If I just divided the retail by half, I would have lost bigtime on labor. If they could buy something comparable cheaper elsewhere, we both won. I had a few good wholesale and award customers, and made a lot of different things. I got a lot of experience, paid for equipment as I could justify buying within the proceeds of a few orders, good exposure, and it all fell at a time when I needed the extra money and something to occupy my mind. I spent a lot of long nights and weekends in my little corner of the world. I have no regrets about doing it. One of my belts has been in the Wrangler jeans ads for a couple years now. These customers have kind of faded. One business sold, and enough said there. The other I do intermittant custom orders for now, and I set my price. He usually just sends it on or has me dropship directly. More a customer service to him than a profit center now. For consignment, that is a two edged sword. If they have competing products, they are going to push whichever one gives them the best margin. If it is an imported planner with that oversized pattern with the odd sized tools used, they'll push it. Your stuff will get shop worn or road weary. Stuff will get lifted or lost. They will lose track of what they have, and will forget they sold 4 things last month and not send you the check. Know who you are dealing with. I had two good ones, that I could deal with. I mostly reserved the consignments for the bigger events like the NFR. You know that in 2 weeks it will be sold, or you can get it back for Christmas presents. I usually set my price on the consignment items higher than wholesale, since they had no inventory cost in it. I made them things that were not competing with similar items they stocked. Basically display it and take the money. Some of these were one-ofs I was trying out new patterns or ideas. The last couple years I have been busy enough, I haven't had time to make consignment orders before Christmas. It was pretty cool for my folks to go to Las Vegas and see my stuff though. My mother's favorite joke was to ask them if it was imported. Then comes the elephant at the table nobody tells you about. What do you do when one of the wholesale accounts customers finds you, calls you and wants to place an order directly? Do you refer them back to the wholesaler or take them on at your retail rate, after the wholesaler spent their time, overhead, and expense to get them onto your products? The wholesaler may have been charging even more than your normal retail rate. Who's customer are they? Do you put your maker's maker on everything or the customers? Things to think about. I would talk more at length with the manager a little more about what they are expecting. Come in with a price sheet and a flexible plan, but don't show it right off the bat. You are dealing with a pretty uniqure product, and they aren't selling them on every corner.

Ben, Ditto what my pal from Whitecourt said about Sheridan Leather. They have the Superiors for sure, and maybe the Walsalls.. There was a design difference I saw in the Quick Change type that the tree company was selling from the Veach models. On the Veach ones, the top is offset at an angle from the riveting flange. This allowed the stirrup leather to hang flat going through the loop and catch the lower pin. On the knock-offs the top was a a straight line with the flange. The stirrup leather would have to kink a bit. That kink would be right at the lower straight post. Even though you need to use a keeper with them, I would think that kink might make the leather a little prone to popping off that straight post, especially sandwiching the flange between the fender leg and leather to rivet, that brings that post in even further. I keep thinking about the barrel racer lifting their leg to keep from catching one, and I wonder. The picture in the Walsall catalog is straight on, so I can't tell if it is straight or offset like Ben's. As far as email response from Walsall, mmmm much like Ohio Travel Bag for me. The Ann Stohlman award winners will be Al Stohlman award winners before the reply comes through. I find the phones are better, and I have been overly impressed with the notification and shipping of backorders from Walsall. They have been very good in that regard for me.

The Superior and the Quick Buckles are two different things. The Superiors are the two pin and strap set up. There is nothing going around the stirrup leathers. Sonny Felkins makes them last I knew. I don't use them much, and bought them as I needed them from a local guy who had some. I did order a pair or two from Sheridan Leather Outfitters. Some guys like them. I personally have never used them on anything I rode. The Quick Buckles were developed by Ben Veach. He sold the rights, and it still hasn't come out exactly who has them. Walsall has them in 2-1/2" in the latest catalog, but I am not sure if they are the same. I can't tell from the picture. I saw some knockoffs at Sheridan that a saddle tree company (not Superior) was selling. I don't have that info right in front of me. Their design was just a bit different, and not sure I like it. I had some barrel racers who really liked the original 2-1/2s on their saddles. They are easy to change, seem to stay hooked when they raise their leg (my initial concern), turn easier for shorter legs, and ride over a latigo easily. I did a few grand-entry/flagging saddles with 3" buckles when I first got them too. Made for quick arena changes.

The mystery tool is a CS Osborne channeler. It is designed to cut a slit to sew into, and then close it up making a "hidden stitch". The edge guide and the blade are both adjustable to set the width and depth of the cut. The one you have seems to be the most common. There is also one that cuts at an angle relative to the shaft of the tool. I have one of each, and really have to hold my mouth right to cut a decent line for a hidden stitch with either one. I find that about 3 passes of increasing depth does best for me. There is another style called a Eureka channeler that resembles a french edger with the blade perpendicular out the bottom. Some guys will cut these freehand with a blade, particualrly when cutting in from an edge, and do a better job.

Without getting into the reasons for and against nightlatches, that has already been discussed. If you are going to build one, and the rider is going to use one as intended, it needs to not break away. If it is going to be a decoration, then I would question whether it is going to just be a nuisance that someone will accidentally hang up in and cause a wreck that might not have needed to happen otherwise. There are enough people hanging a spur up in saddle bags, horn pockets to carry lunch or a camera, or water bottle pockets getting on or running a limb through them, I am not sure that adding a loop around the fork is a good idea for most people.

There is a whole thread on the night latch, it's history, some styles, and the reasons for and against. It is under the topic "grab strap" in the How Do I Do This? section. I'll try to stick a link in here.

Jim, Thanks for the insight on the Cowboy machines. It is kind of hard to sort everything out sometimes. Ferdco and Artisan have been around for a while setting up at or putting on trade shows, and a history of advertising in the trade magazines. They just have the name recognition among a lot of us. The Cowboy line up is kind of the new kid on the block so to speak. It is nice to know they are not just an out of the box clone with nothing special done to them. I had the chance to talk briefly to Ryan at Sheridan, and enjoyed it. We all have our favorites, some we have bought by previous experience with the company, price, reputation, or advice from someone like yourself. Thanks for weighing in with your experience. This is the kind of stuff that Cowboy needs to bring up. Seems like there are more sellers of heavy machines now than a few years ago, and it is daunting to decide between the different ones. Regarding the commercial aspects of the forum. Feel free to mention what you like from thread to handtools to machines. We all buy stuff and the collective experience of the forum means we are all better educated when we do. We won't all agree, and shouldn't. I only have sewing machines from one supplier that did me right on the first one, but have Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pickups in the driveway. I'm pretty open minded. LOL.

I have done the baby powder deal and sometimes it works OK. Friction and motion is the source of the squeak. Some leather finishes are worse than others about noise too. I usually will paste up the stirrup leather bottoms where they go over the bars, the tops where they rub under the seat jockeys, and where they contact the skirts. I mostly use Williams for this. Some guys recommend other pastes or saddle soap. I think Al Stohlman recommended vaseline in the saddlemaking books.

Billy Cook has been around a while. There was an article in ShopTalk a while back on him. He has had control of the name a couple times. Recently he got some publicity for losing his work force in Sulphur to immigration issues. I had a couple Billy Cook cutters in the early 80s and they were pretty good. I had a Cheaney and a Cajun and really, none of them sat much different to me. There really is only so much you can do with the top side of a cutting board - fork height and horn styles are about it. There is not much trick to the seat other than keeping it off the withers. Grumpyguy pretty well summed up the time era and the reputations. I never got the chance to work on a Bob Marshall until recently. I was not particluarly impressed with it being superior to any of the Billys I have worked on. There was a time when Billy had transferred rights to the name to a company. Rumor was that other saddles were being imported with the Billy Cook stamp too and sold through mail order, traveling tack auctions, traded in to saddle shops, etc. and nobody could ever verify what they had. There is some quality question as to the Greenville Billys vs. the Sulphur stamped ones too. Some is probably rumor and legend, and some is not. Billy Cook is not the only example. These quality issues and rumors always seem to pop up when a "name" saddlemaker sells the rights to use that name to someone else. It is still happening today. Grumpy, Regarding the production saddles riveted to the half leathers. Not a unique problem to the production guys. I have a relative who ended up on his head in a fairly new big name, high rep shop saddle. That apparently sent everyone else scurrying to lift their seat jockeys and see how their rivets looked at the top of the fenders before they went down the fence.

Anders, Sounds like you are going to be hand sewing. For any kind of decent results you are going to need something to hold it. I started off with a small vise with the clamp on base. I covered the jaws with leather pads, and screwed it onto a slideout bread board in the kitchen. Sat there in the kitchen and handsewed (6 spi) one headstall a night for a couple years. I had two stamps - a #500 basket and a small cam for the border that I hit with a fiberglass autobody hammer. I sold them off my saddlehorn on the weekends for entry fees. The list so far is pretty good. I would add decent edgers to the list. What kind will trigger debate, so just find something that you like and can sharpen in a medium size. For chemicals I like the spirit dyes too, and mix then directly with my NF oil. As far as other conditioners, if you are in Alpine, Big Bend has most of my favorites listed on their website. I like the Williams about as well as anything. The Holes products are good, and the Black Rock is too. Talk to them and see what they are liking for your climate.

Mike, Thanks for the input, I was playing some more while you were posting. Look like a little heat, a little Lexol, and a then the rubrag, and it gives me a pretty good feel with the least effort. Says Bruce, whose rotator cuff is now saying ouch tonight. Back to boring shoulder exercizes in the morning. So for those who have tried some of the others. Is this stuff superior in any area to things like HideRejuvenater (that needs to come in a larger size again for the makers), Williams, or some of the other pastes?

I was really not liking this stuff much earlier. These straps have been out in our afternoon sun for 4 days, and still all they all felt sticky, dried Pepsi on the steering wheel sticky. I took some end cuts a played tonight. This stuff was so tacky that pulling a rag over them was like tug of war. Ken, I hit a scrap with some heat, and it melted in. Seems like it takes more heat than either HideRejuvenator, Saddle Butter, or Williams. Probably a factor of the higher melting point of the waxes in it (Might be a good thing?). Got rid of the gooby tacky feel, and felt pretty good. Andrew, Actually I was thinking this stuff was feeling just like that sticky crappy dampish crud on straps and back billets that builds up in damp weather, exactly the feel a guy wants to clean off before running anything through the machine. A quick swipe of Lexol and it is OK now. Even a Lexol dampened paper towel was enough. I added a quick swipe to the heated ends above and they improved off that too. Now I feel a little more armed with how to use it. Feel free to buy yourselves a drink on my behalf.

I got a can of Feibing's Aussie conditioner a while back. I recently opened the can and tried it on some repair stirrup leathers. I was expecting something along the line of William's. The first thing that hit me was that it smelled of lighter fluid in the can. It applied easily enough, but after three days outside, the surface still has a sticky feel to it. I haven't hit it with the heat gun yet, but that is next. Anybody have any experience with this stuff good or bad?

Joanne, Yes, your idea of rock is correct. Less rock means the bars will be flatter. And also any tree that really does rock on the horse will be concentrating pressure in the middle and not distributing it across the whole span of the bars. That is a mostly a bad thing. On most saddles you can set them on a horse with no pad, and feel under the ends of the bars for any gapping. But there are other factors besides rock (bar patterns and "flare") that can affect that too. I was taught about 30 years to lay an handkerchief under the middle of the saddle again with no pad and cinch it down. If you can easily pull it out, there is some degree of bridging. Problem is determining how much and if it is significant??

Joanne, I agree with JW, and also would say that most production trees have less rock than more, and that leaves some space for the horse to "round up into". I see more production trees with less rock and more bridging problems. Some of us were taught that you need some space for the horse to round up into for arena performance saddles. Just how much is the big question and no real answers seem to exist right now. I have kind of changed my thoughts on this over the last couple of years, due in part to discussions on questions like yours. One recent comment shared with me in regards to reining horses- "Do you really need that space for for them to round up into for the 1-2 seconds of sliding stop at the sacrifice of the tree bridging for the 20 seconds of figure eights and run downs, the 5 seconds of the spin, or the 20 minutes of long trot warming up? . I don't know that answer, but have my suspicion. Horses seem to do a lot more than just the one maneuver or particular way of going we focus on.