Big Sioux Saddlery

A traditional halter snap is not available in sizes over 1", at least that I have found. However, Weaver has the #200 snap available in 2" in stainless steel. It is a similar design to the #56 halter snap.

That's somewhat like what I told a friend when we were discussing this. . . the carriage people want to disassociate themselves from anything draft/farming related, and come up with their own names and rules. Whatever, no matter I guess, and as time goes on there will be fewer and fewer people doing things in the old ways. I am curious though what kind of draft horses you grew up with, and the activities they were involved in. MN has always had a pretty healthy population of draft horses and groups that are pretty active with different field days and events. A friend of mine gave me a DVD a few years ago of a plowing contest in MN, back in the late '60's(?). Idk if it was state or national, but there were literally thousands of spectators. An event like that around here now would be lucky to draw 50 people.

You're welcome. Carriage driving. . . those people have nice turnouts, but they have some goofy ideas about driving horses, some that I consider unsafe. One good thing is that they WILL spend money. Years ago I spent several years working for a Saddlebred trainer. In addition to Saddlebreds, we worked Arabs, Morgans, world champion Hackneys, and lines were always called lines by the old timers. "Reins" instantly labeled someone as a newbie, even in that world. There was just a discussion about this very topic the other day on a FB driving/draft group, and it appears to be a regional difference now as much as anything. With most of the old timers gone, guys that I considered to be true horsemen, and the people getting into horses and driving now being completely new to horses, terms that were once considered "wrong" become commonplace I guess. It still rubs my hair the wrong way, and always will.

Driving LINES have been skived at the joins for as long as there have been driving lines. Just don't skive to paper, and leave it a little thicker than single thickness of either piece. Depending on width, you might want to put a few stitches in the center of the lap at the front. I punch a scalloped pattern on the front part of the line and lap it over the hand part. It annoys me greatly when I see lines put together backwards, with the hand part overlapping the front part. The terrets are far enough forward they shouldn't catch on the laps anyway, except when pulling the lines out. If it's a work harness, and I'm assuming it is because 15oz is pretty heavy, lines stay on the saddle when not in use. Everyone wants to pull the lines out of the terrets and leave them attached to the bit. Grrr. Of course with show harness, parts get disassembled down more for storage than work harness. Edit: I should clarify, don't skive to paper at the end of the skives, and leave the join itself a little thicker than either single piece. Don't skive back from the lap further than the end of each skived piece. Follow me? Yes, skiving does weaken the leather somewhat. Just be careful how many holes you poke in it while sewing, and where, and don't skive too much off.

There's been LOTS of car upholstery sewed on machines with no reverse. If you can't spin the work, lift the foot, move the work by hand back one stitch, turn the machine over to make the stitch (make sure to lower the foot first), repeat for as many back stitches as you want to make. More than one way to skin a cat.

Standard Rivet has down to 1/4", which takes a 20ss stone. They come in a variety of finishes, including NB. Any smaller than that gets pretty doggone hard to handle anyway, especially if you set them by hand or a single feed machine. Edit: Tim from SX is on here every once in awhile, he might come along and say if he has anything smaller.

I agree with Oltoot on the scored rawhide. I've seen many older saddles (and some not so old) where the rawhide had been scored and later split open to expose the wood underneath, resulting in breakage or rotted wood from moisture getting to it. I do feel however, that the risers add a little bulk to my seats where I don't want it. It takes more work and shaping to get back to where I would be if I didn't put them in. So, I haven't found the perfect answer. I do know that the shape of the top of the bars has a big effect on how much work I have to go through to get the seat I want, and there are trees (makers) I won't buy, and won't buy again for this reason.

That groove is probably wear from the thread, although it almost looks a little rough, like it was ground out. If your spring still holds good tension and the groove doesn't cause issues, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Otherwise, like JLS said, easily replaced.

The bottom machine is a Union Lock, Don. You might want to stay away from that one for awhile. There are good ones out there, but they are known for being a "hard to get along with" machine. Extensively used in production settings, where they are able to have a mechanic work on them at a moment's notice. I have one, haven't used it a lot, and have gotten along ok with it, but I have heard the nightmares. They are geared more for high-speed sewing. I think Wizcrafts on the forum has owned and used one. He may have additional input. The top machine, or the Randall variation of it, would be excellent for what you want to do. There is no machine that can equal the stitch produced by them.

You are doing some nice work, Josh.

I don't have a Knipschield knife but I agree with what Bikermutt said above about not knowing what sharp was until he got one. There is a whole different level of sharp in better knives. Weaver's knife would be the same as the Tandy knife. I know when starting out, it seems like too much money to spend on a good knife, but you can buy good quality once, or you can go the other route (like most of us did) and buy crap several times and end up with more money invested and having to buy quality in the end anyway. Also, what type of work do you plan to do? There are different shapes for different purposes. A knife with swept back pointy ends and a bit straighter shape leading up to varying degrees of "pointy-ness at the nose is good for pattern cutting. a broad, more rounded shape is good for skiving and straight cuts. Many people end up with more than one knife. I have several on my bench or within easy reach at any given time. My favorites are an old C.S. Osborne for pattern cutting, and a W. Rose for skiving and straight cuts.

I advise you not to spend your money on the Tandy Stohlman round knife. Do yourself a favor and buy either a good vintage knife from a reputable seller of vintage tools that knows how to sharpen round knives, or buy a new one from a good knifemaker. You will never learn how to properly use a round knife as long as you use a poor one, and starting out with a poor one has put many people off of round knives for good. There is not a more versatile, better suited knife for cutting and skiving than the round knife, but to master it, it needs to be sharp and be of good steel. I've seen some of the Tandy Stohlman knives, and I was not impressed. Tandy is not the place to buy a round knife.

I would certainly take one at that price as well. Mine acquired a tiny nick in one edge and it's very annoying.

Did you try adjusting takeup? It's been a few years since I've sewed on a Randall, so it's not fresh in my mind. I have one sitting in my garage that I just picked up a couple months ago that I will try to get sewing when I have some free time later in the year. What do the stitches look like before the thread breaks? Do you have a manual?

I am amazed that you got that result by sewing in a slit with a machine. The Stohlmans hand stitched most everything I believe, and their instructions assume the reader does as well. With a machine, the top side would not so much be an issue, but the bottom side could be difficult to hit dead center with every stitch. Harness stitchers of a hundred years ago had a knife attached to the machine (or the needle bar in some cases with a needle and awl stitcher) to cut a bottom channel, and a knife set into the presser foot to cut the top channel. Either special throat plates or work guides (or both) were used to keep everything in place while sewing. The ends are always a challenge. I need to take a picture to show you what I feel is the best way to blend them back into the round. There are different ways to finish the end, but the most durable is gong to be where you skive the end of the return to paper and run it an inch or a little more back into the rounded section. You must also skive the end of the filler. . . it will overlap with the end of the return and you don't want any difference in thickness at this point. It is a lot of trial and error to get that part right. I came across an old Arab show bridle this weekend when I was looking for something else. It's 35 years old (I know this because I bought it new). The returns are not spliced into the filler, in fact I don't believe it had a filler. It was not an inexpensive bridle at the time. Since it was a show bridle, it received light use, but if it had received more than light, occasional use, it never would have held up at those spots, due to the method of construction. The gray transferred to your round from the rounder may be able to be removed with oxalic acid. Make sure the inside of the holes are highly polished and clean. Use saddle soap on your round when using the rounder, and the moisture content is critical: it must be neither too wet nor too dry. Separation of the grain could be caused by either one. At this point, I am NOT trying to let you blunder along. I don't feel like I am being very effective at helping to head you off from possible pitfalls, but so much of what I do is by "feel" gained through experience (both right and wrong) and I don't think about the "whys" and "wherefores". Nobody works with me in the shop, nor do I do any teaching, so I'm never forced to break down my processes into easily teachable methods. A true teacher has a talent for doing that. This is an interesting looking arrangement, I'm assuming for a 441 type machine. It appears to be for more of a purse-handle type of rolled strap, but I'd like to see the other side of it, and the finished product. Thanks for posting it.

Sorry, I was gone for a day and a half, but I agree with Northmount on the pressure foot tension. I've got mine screwed down pretty good. The tradeoff is pressure foot marks, but skirting is tough sewing stuff, and it will lift with the needle if not screwed down tight enough, and cause skipped stitches just as Tom said. Laps can always be a problem because you are dropping in material thickness as you are sewing, and backstitches are notorious for not pulling the lock in. The last set of pics looks better. There are a few bobbles, but it's better. Every machine takes getting used to, and learning what you can and can't do, and what you MUST do. I do not use thread lube on my 441. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I have just never reached the point that I thought I needed to.

I do sew into a slit on both sides, top and bottom. I have a machine that I can put a knife in to cut the bottom channel, and a foot that has a knife in it to cut the top channel as I sew. If hand stitching, I cut the channel with a channeling tool, and then close it after I'm done stitching. And a rein rounder is almost imperative. Nothing goes through the rounder until after everything is stitched and the channel smoothed back closed. Of course the rounder will help with that also. Hermann Oak doesn't usually give too much trouble stitching. Wickett and Craig leather will squeak like heck sometimes though. Is the #25 needle a #200 or #230? I would like to see a picture of the trouble you are having. It's not often you can tighten tension enough to bury the stitches on a 441, but what can happen is if you sew with too big of a needle and the holes are too close together, the leather can tear through in between the holes. Is the leather cased up when you are sewing? Sometimes I will sew very slightly cased leather, but too wet and you will have trouble. I look forward to seeing pictures of the progress on your rounds. Oh yeah, I'm a ma'am, not a sir, but that's ok. You had no way of knowing. And you're welcome.

That may be the first time anyone has ever said that to me! Usually I get a blank look followed by "Um, . . .Huh?"

There are very few people making rounds in the old traditional way. That's because it is more difficult and takes more time to do it in the traditional way. Time is money, and today's average consumer shops on price. You would have to find a custom maker building high-end stuff to find the type of rounds I've been referring too. I'm not saying you're wrong for building them the way you are. It just depends on what level of work you want to end up doing and being happy with. The majority of people today don't know the difference. For me, it's more of a personal thing to do things the way I do them, than consumer demand. That depends on the purpose. For the throatlatch on these halters, I would probably shoot for 7/16". 3/8" would be a little light. Greg Gomersall makes 1/4" rounds for throatlatches on fine headstalls, and that is WITH a filler. That is some fine work there, 1/4" rounds. A round made in the traditional way will retain it's shape better, and just look better, IMO. There are thousands of halters, headstalls, side checks, etc out there that are made with more "modern" methods, and it's 100% for economy and ease of construction. I take a light edge off the part of the filler that goes in the bottom of the round. Take too much and your needle is going to want to push it out, take to little and you'll end up with a round with a bit of a flat side. Thickness depends on size of the finished round. Best thing you can do is spend some time on mock-ups and practice piece before you touch your project. I have a box full of practice rounds. Do NOT pull the filler through the rounder before you sew it in. Yes, and the returns skived and blended into the round a couple inches in. This takes some time to get right, and a lot of trial and error. It's hard to explain without a picture. I can try to get some tomorrow if you'd like. You stitch everything together very carefully! Nothing makes you madder than to go through all the work of fitting up a round, and then find the filler got pushed out while you were sewing. After stitching, I trim off the filler (which has stuck out past the edges of the round itself), then take a heavy edge off top and bottom. That's what a rein trimmer hand tool is for. I'm not sure what you mean about the two rows of stitching, but no that would not be acceptable, at least for me. Do you have Stohlman's Hand Sewing book? I think they explain a little about making the more traditional rounds in there, although it differs a somewhat from how I do it. I have a "round breaker" attachment for the end of my creaser, which makes fitting up a lot easier and makes for a more consistent round. However, they are very rare, so it's not ever really fair of me to mention that! You have to play with the thicknesses of your pieces to see what combination gives you different thicknesses of finished rounds. The area of the hide makes a difference also. Too solid and they're likely to split at some point in the process, to raggy or too soft and you'll end up with a round that varies in thickness throughout it's length. Shoulders will work if there's no wrinkles. Making traditional rounds is a fairly advanced project. I had done leatherwork for well over 20 years before I felt like I did a passable job. And I still don't think I could make a perfect 1/4" round with a filler!

FWIW, I want my bottom tension as tight as I can get it, which isn't all that tight on a 441. Remember this: your stitch will never be any tighter than what your bottom tension is. Tight stitches is the end goal, especially when building equine equipment. On one of my old, "true" harness stitchers, I have to pull thread from tension on the bottom with a pliers If I don't have any work in the machine. THAT machine sews tight! But you will not be able to get that kind of tension on a 441. Also, leather thickness relative to needle and thread size can make it impossible to bury the lock in the middle. The rolled work you are making is not considered a true round. There is no way to get a perfectly round profile with this method. I realize that the old halter you are copying may be made this way. This method might be fine for purse handles, but I don't like it for equine equipment. The filler should be a strip of leather and you should be sewing through it when you sew the rest. When done correctly, and finished up, a true round is perfectly round, with no "lip", and the stitches are not visible. It is a more complicated process though.

You're welcome. Presser foot marks are something that you will probably not eliminate with a 441 type machine. If you are using a zipper foot, if puts even more pressure on a smaller area, which means possibly deeper marks. What are your tension issues exactly? I can't see the picture well enough to determine what you might need to do. What needle size and type and what thread size are you using? Incidentally, a 441 would not be my choice of machines to sew rounds on, due to the foot design/feed system.

I've certainly seen worst first attempts. I would recommend lots of practice just sewing. Sewing to a point on a return takes practice to make it look like it should. The places your machine is wanting to wander off the bottom edge is pretty typical. Make sure nothing is edged on that underside before you sew, and most of the time, a creaser is going to roll that edge enough to cause trouble also. There are times you can sneak by with it, but most of the time not. Just practice handling your material as you sew,, and paying attention to what happens as you make the slightest change.

Well I am laughing, but only because these are CLASSIC pitfalls for the new leatherworker, and the same mistakes that we all made starting out. The folded throat strap, or rounded, as it is more correctly referred to within the trade, is a bit more advanced work. I personally do not normally put wire in any of my rounds, but I do use a filler. Do a search for "rounds" or "rolled work" and you'll find quite a few hits that will keep you busy reading for awhile. I think Bruce Johnson might have a tutorial on it at his website. The hardest part of making rounds is knowing how much to skive, and blending the turnback back into the round. What I see nowadays that passes for rounds is atrocious. The old time harness makers are turning over in their graves. I would bet that the reason you nearly sewed through the edge of your lead strap, is because you edged it first. If you had learned how to sew on an old Landis One or similar, you'd REALLY learn how to prep your work to avoid this. A 441 is a pretty forgiving machine, but the needle coming out the edge can still happen, especially when sewing several layers of really narrow straps, like a half inch cheek on a driving bridle. The layers have to be flat and square, no rounded edges. While your first work might look pretty terrible, I guarantee you learned more than if I had just said "Make sure to do this, and don't do that". Telling you now what to do and not do will make more sense. Another word about rounds: it takes a LOT of practice to do a good job. I was already years and years in business, and years of hobby work before that, before I could make a round I wasn't ashamed of. I remember being a young child and studying the round side checks on old work horse harness, wondering how in the heck they were made. Even after I got all the necessary tools and equipment to make them, they still didn't look good. Finally one day I decided I was gong to do nothing but make rounds, and not quit until I had it figured out, even if it took all the next day. That was the day I learned to make rounds, but it is still a slow and painstaking process to do a good job, and I'll ruin an occasional one.

Sorry Silver, I only saw your last comment just now. You've probably already done what you were going to do, but I would bevel ONLY if you were going to make a riveted halter. If you are going to line it and stitch, I'd bevel the folds and wait with the rest until after you sew together. If you don't, you'll find out why I said that

If you make the halter out of leather, it will break if a horse gets caught. It is nearly impossible to make a leather halter strong enough to NOT break. That's why single ply leather halters are often referred to as turnout halters. A pretty, doubled and stitched leather halter will break also, but why go to all that work for a turnout halter? Personally, when I make turnout halters, they are all single ply leather with riveted laps, like the old time draft farm halters. It's a good way to use short scrap that may not be from the best part of the hide. Straps cut from necks and shoulders work just fine to turn out on a horse, whereas you wouldn't ant to use them for high-end stuff. Occasionally I will have a client request a leather crown put on a nylon halter, so it can be used to turn out. BUT, I would check with the client first and find out just exactly what they are expecting. The fact is, it's nearly impossible to make ANY halter unbreakable, unless it's a tied rope halter. The hardware that is available to us today is simply not strong enough to withstand a 1000 lbs (or 2000lbs) setting back against it when tied to something solid. However, when turned out, horses rub their heads on whatever is available, and it's all too easy for them to get caught in a way that they hang themselves and the halter doesn't break.