Lets talk about sales (or lack thereof)

[Handstitched]

The one thing they don't always tell you  @Spyros is where their capital came from.  Do they have wealthy families?  What did they sell to get the capital ?  What money did they borrow and how much and who/ where from? Or , did they lie, deceive,   cheat & steal their way to a fortune?  Its unkind I know, but I  do wonder.

I just used whatever  little savings I had to buy  a few tools, leather etc. But I was also doing odd jobs around town  and at the local pub to earn a few bucks,  including being a rousy . 

HS

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, Handstitched said:

The one thing they don't always tell you  @Spyros is where their capital came from.  Do they have wealthy families?  What did they sell to get the capital ?  What money did they borrow and how much and who/ where from? Or , did they lie, deceive,   cheat & steal their way to a fortune?  Its unkind I know, but I  do wonder.

I just used whatever  little savings I had to buy  a few tools, leather etc. But I was also doing odd jobs around town  and at the local pub to earn a few bucks,  including being a rousy . 

HS

I know...  Can't say we have too many successful businessmen back home in Greece but almost all politicians are like that, you read their CV online and it always has some massive jumps that don't make sense.  Like: "in 1992 he graduated from law school with honours and started his career as a trainee lawyer at a private law firm before accepting in 1995 the position of DIRECTOR OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS in the Ministry of Justice" 

Then you read further down and he's almost always the son of somebody connected.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Spyros

[chrisash]

On 4/4/2022 at 4:55 AM, Spyros said:

In other words, leather goods is a niche market these days.  And it is a broadly misunderstood market with a bit of ignorance on the consumer's part (and somethimes our part as well).  And that's ok, every market has its hurdles. 

In fact if you think about it, and despite everything you mentioned, the leather goods market has less hurdles than others and it's almost a friendly market by comparison.  For example try to break into the car or phone market as a new manufacturer, it's practically impossible unless you're already some manufacturing giant.  Try to make and sell your own cigarettes, or medicinal drugs, or white goods.  Impossible.   And so on and so forth, in fact if you look at commonly used items in a household there's actually very few that you can still make and sell with reasonable investment and without feeling that you have to fight the whole universe.  Leather goods is one of them, so take the good with the bad and work with the advantages you do have, because there are a few: there's still a significant number of people out there who value quality over quantity, longevity over convenience, craft over mass production, and within reason they are willing to pay accordingly.   They are not everywhere, but they exist, even if some of them don't know it and you have to explain it to them.

Whilst I was browsing this morning I came across a post of some leather dogs collars tooled with animals and lined with a nice green lining, now the general market for such will be tiny and a hard sell to most of us after all they soon get dirty , greasy and look worn, but I assume a few dog or pet owners showing their dogs at dog shows would pay the earth for a dog collar that really stood out, with quite a good size market for them.. many hobbyists will make their plain wallet and advertise with thousand's of others on Esty or similar sites and expect to make sales with no effort and no real marketing

You need a niche market you can exploit to the full rather than compete with thousands of other hopeful's selling the same basic items, make something different that stands out. there are millions of artists in this world few ever sell their goods at a profit that recovers the hours invested in the painting or drawing, same with writer's and many other hobbies

[Handstitched]

39 minutes ago, chrisash said:

there are millions of artists in this world few ever sell their goods at a profit that recovers the hours invested in the painting or drawing, same with writer's and many other hobbies

I wish I could charge by the hour, if I did , I would be quite wealthy by now.  So instead, I charge what I think is a fair price . 

@Spyros I have seen business ' seminars' ,  get rich schemes etc. ( aka scams)  as well as ' pyramid selling'  come and go , I've used my wisdom...and my gut instinct  to steer clear of them .  Remember those brand name  ' magnetic wrist bands'  that were constantly advertised  on TV ?  Not seen them in yonks. Can't be that good .   I compare those with the oldest marketing trick in the book. 'Invent a problem and create a product to solve it ' .   I wonder how many people got stung by those?.....at a 'seminar' perhaps? 

HS 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Handstitched

[Samalan]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

That's why I get a little angry with all those motivational speakers and successful businessmen blindly advising everyone to quit their jobs and "follow their dreams / do what they love"

It's true as long as what you love is building a business, and except all  of the life changing  aspects of that. Business building can be good and bad it's a lot of very hard work and long hours. You get to find out who you are or aren't .  blaming others for your own short cummings is not a good idea, bottom line it's up to you.              don't get angry try to be that successful businessman, find out for yourself .   Its an experience like no other.

[Samalan]

11 minutes ago, Handstitched said:

I wish I could charge by the hour, if I did , I would be quite wealthy by now.  So instead, I charge what I think is a fair price

So charge by the hour and be wealthy. When you charge what you think is a fair price who is it fair to. who are you Santa Claus.

[toxo]

I think the reason we try to sell our items is a combination of all of the above. A big one that no one has mentioned yet is we like the idea of other people liking and appreciating what we do. Of course friends and family always "like what we do" but someone liking it enough to buy it is a whole different thing.

In one way I'm fortunate enough to be retired but that's made me lazy and I haven't sold much at all thus far but lately I've had a kick up the arse via a sewing/craft shop local to me. She offered to put a few of my bits in the shop and some bags on the wall for very little rent but that's not the best bit. She runs a few small classes teaching sewing/crochet, that kind of thing and I mentioned that I wouldn't be averse to doing a basic leather craft workshop, this Saturday will be my first one. It's only 4 hrs and it's not been up long but I have 3 clients thus far which pays the rent for the day and puts about £80 in my pocket which is not a lot but it can only get better and I get to do something I like, teaching and it's giving me some enthusiasm back.

[Spyros]

3 hours ago, Samalan said:

It's true as long as what you love is building a business, and except all  of the life changing  aspects of that. Business building can be good and bad it's a lot of very hard work and long hours. You get to find out who you are or aren't .  blaming others for your own short cummings is not a good idea, bottom line it's up to you.              don't get angry try to be that successful businessman, find out for yourself .   Its an experience like no other.

No I don't think it's up to you.  Of the (lets say) 10 things required to succeed in business you're lucky if you can control 4 or 5, and there's always a few on top that nobody can possibly even predict, like COVID, or a 2008 financial crisis, or skyrocketing fuel prices because of a war somewhere.  But the main factor is luck, even if you don't realise it.

There's stats about new businesses, it's a statistical fact that 2/3 of them fail.  We just never hear about them because nobody wants to hear a story about a failed business, a success story sells a lot better.  I did hear about them unfortunately because liquidating failed businesses was one of my first jobs out of Uni at an accounting firm.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

4 hours ago, chrisash said:

Whilst I was browsing this morning I came across a post of some leather dogs collars tooled with animals and lined with a nice green lining, now the general market for such will be tiny and a hard sell to most of us after all they soon get dirty , greasy and look worn, but I assume a few dog or pet owners showing their dogs at dog shows would pay the earth for a dog collar that really stood out, with quite a good size market for them.. many hobbyists will make their plain wallet and advertise with thousand's of others on Esty or similar sites and expect to make sales with no effort and no real marketing

You need a niche market you can exploit to the full rather than compete with thousands of other hopeful's selling the same basic items, make something different that stands out. there are millions of artists in this world few ever sell their goods at a profit that recovers the hours invested in the painting or drawing, same with writer's and many other hobbies

yeah a niche market might work but sometimes keeping it simple also works. Because you might be competing with thousands but sometimes your potential customers can be billions, I mean I never met anyone who doesn't want another belt.

[Samalan]

1 hour ago, Spyros said:

No I don't think it's up to you.  Of the (lets say) 10 things required to succeed in business you're lucky if you can control 4 or 5, and there's always a few on top that nobody can possibly even predict, like COVID, or a 2008 financial crisis, or skyrocketing fuel prices because of a war somewhere.  But the main factor is luck, even if you don't realise it.

There's stats about new businesses, it's a statistical fact that 2/3 of them fail.  We just never hear about them because nobody wants to hear a story about a failed business, a success story sells a lot better.  I did hear about them unfortunately because liquidating failed businesses was one of my first jobs out of Uni at an accounting firm.

Yes you are right the world is a crazy place . You said the main factor is luck even if you don't Realize it, meaning me LOL you have know idea what I realize or don't realize. To be honest it sounds like your not so sure of yourself ,after all how many things can one control,, 4 or 5, or a war, or maybe a financial crisis, or skyrocketing fuel cost, and COVID who could know , a brain tumor, a fall down the stairs, cancer , a car accident, and the big one DIVORCE wholly shit, and what if I'm just not lucky, Wow I know I'll read my horoscope every day. Just get out and do something before it becomes a real problem for you, that's what I hear in what you wrote. but that's just me.

[Samalan]

Business is one of the greatest Crapshoots of life.

Samalan

[ButtonLady]

8 hours ago, chrisash said:

You need a niche market you can exploit to the full rather than compete with thousands of other hopeful's selling the same basic items, make something different that stands out...

I dabbled once with a few retail products, mostly custom magnets and pins made with brass or nickel rims.  My big draw was that I could make them on the spot because I dragged my equipment to shows.

I learned pretty quickly that (potential) customers really only care about products that represent a specific interest.

For example... at a juried arts fair, the woman next to me was crazy-busy selling metal hair clips.  Nothing special, I thought.  She told me she bought barrette blanks from China and spot-tacked? —glued?  metal charms to them that represented things like nursing, teaching, cats, etc.  People came by asking, "Do you have anything for _____?" and she usually did.  The vast majority were purchased for gifts.  She also said she advertised nurse-themed clips in a nursing publication and sold a LOT that way.

You're not necessarily going to sell something just because it's made from leather; leather is almost secondary.  People seek out things that appeal to their hobbies or personalities or professions, etc. —leather might just be a bonus.

If I ever attempt this again, I will cater specifically to interest-themed events (car shows, or  marching band competitions, or... whatever) and only have products that appeal specifically to that.

Your mileage may vary.

Edited April 5, 2022 by ButtonLady
Someday I will learn to spell...

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Samalan said:

Yes you are right the world is a crazy place . You said the main factor is luck even if you don't Realize it, meaning me LOL you have know idea what I realize or don't realize. To be honest it sounds like your not so sure of yourself ,after all how many things can one control,, 4 or 5, or a war, or maybe a financial crisis, or skyrocketing fuel cost, and COVID who could know , a brain tumor, a fall down the stairs, cancer , a car accident, and the big one DIVORCE wholly shit, and what if I'm just not lucky, Wow I know I'll read my horoscope every day. Just get out and do something before it becomes a real problem for you, that's what I hear in what you wrote. but that's just me.

yea i agree sucessful business require hard work and patience. patience to allow the business to grow at its own rate and the patience to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hard work is the catalyst. Ive read a thousand success stories pretty much the dominate theme is 16 hour days! If you plan to borrow a ton o money to buy a ton of cool tools because you have no patience to save and expect to quit every day at five,go on a couple of vacations a year right from the start then you probably will fail. But then success is a personal thing that means diferent things to diferent people me i'm happy with a hot meal and a cold beer at the end of the day some want caviar and champagne.

Working for yourself is a full time job. 

[Samalan]

21 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

Working for yourself is a full time job.

Yep it sure is and more often than that more than full time I remember sleeping on the saw table then get up in the middle of the night and start all over those were the days.

[chrisash]

1 hour ago, ButtonLady said:

I dabbled once with a few retail products, mostly custom magnets and pins made with brass or nickel rims.  My big draw was that I could make them on the spot because I dragged my equipment to shows.

I learned pretty quickly that (potential) customers really only care about products that represent a specific interest.

For example... at a juried arts fair, the woman next to me was crazy-busy selling metal hair clips.  Nothing special, I thought.  She told me she bought barrette blanks from China and spot-tacked? —glued?  metal charms to them that represented things like nursing, teaching, cats, etc.  People came by asking, "Do you have anything for _____?" and she usually did.  The vast majority were purchased for gifts.  She also said she advertised nurse-themed clips in a nursing publication and sold a LOT that way.

You're not necessarily going to sell something just because it's made from leather; leather is almost secondary.  People seek out things that appeal to their hobbies or personalities or professions, etc. —leather might just be a bonus.

If I ever attempt this again, I will cater specifically to interest-themed events (car shows, or  marching band competitions, or... whatever) and only have products that appeal specifically to that.

Your mileage may vary.

To True, you have hit it on the head

[ButtonLady]

51 minutes ago, chrisash said:

To True, you have hit it on the head

That explains the headache...

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, toxo said:

I think the reason we try to sell our items is a combination of all of the above. A big one that no one has mentioned yet is we like the idea of other people liking and appreciating what we do. Of course friends and family always "like what we do" but someone liking it enough to buy it is a whole different thing.

In one way I'm fortunate enough to be retired but that's made me lazy and I haven't sold much at all thus far but lately I've had a kick up the arse via a sewing/craft shop local to me. She offered to put a few of my bits in the shop and some bags on the wall for very little rent but that's not the best bit. She runs a few small classes teaching sewing/crochet, that kind of thing and I mentioned that I wouldn't be averse to doing a basic leather craft workshop, this Saturday will be my first one. It's only 4 hrs and it's not been up long but I have 3 clients thus far which pays the rent for the day and puts about £80 in my pocket which is not a lot but it can only get better and I get to do something I like, teaching and it's giving me some enthusiasm back.

Great news and I believe that it will be more rewarding more every time.

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

I mean I never met anyone who doesn't want another belt

shoosh

[Spyros]

9 hours ago, Samalan said:

Yes you are right the world is a crazy place . You said the main factor is luck even if you don't Realize it, meaning me LOL you have know idea what I realize or don't realize. To be honest it sounds like your not so sure of yourself ,after all how many things can one control,, 4 or 5, or a war, or maybe a financial crisis, or skyrocketing fuel cost, and COVID who could know , a brain tumor, a fall down the stairs, cancer , a car accident, and the big one DIVORCE wholly shit, and what if I'm just not lucky, Wow I know I'll read my horoscope every day. Just get out and do something before it becomes a real problem for you, that's what I hear in what you wrote. but that's just me.

No sorry, when I say "you" it's just a figure of speech, I didn't mean you personally.

And to be honest I don't really care if I sound sure of myself or not, I don't sell life success seminars.  I'm just saying what I've seen, as I've seen it.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Spyros

[Klara]

I am really missing a like button here! Because I completely agree with @toxo "A big one that no one has mentioned yet is we like the idea of other people liking and appreciating what we do. Of course friends and family always "like what we do" but someone liking it enough to buy it is a whole different thing." Buying is the ultimate compliment, and that was one of the main reasons I worked for sale.

Whereas I know @ButtonLady's argument "customers really only care about products that represent a specific interest." from the other side: I am regularly trawling Etsy and Ebay for borzoi-related objects, and I buy things I don't need in any way, but I want them (fortunately, the offer is small as it's a rare breed).

 

[toxo]

11 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Great news and I believe that it will be more rewarding more every time.

shoosh

Thanks Brian. It's appreciated. (And I've just signed up #4 )  - 2nd time around. I did this once at 5am this morning. Couldn't have submitted it.

[toxo]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

 I am regularly trawling Etsy and Ebay for borzoi-related objects, and I buy things I don't need in any way, but I want them (fortunately, the offer is small as it's a rare breed).

I don't know if you saw them Klara but there was someone on here showing really stunning tooled Borzoi type dog collars. Think they were Russian or similar. (Wasn't you was it?)

Can anyone put a finger on it?

[RockyAussie]

15 hours ago, toxo said:

Thanks Brian. It's appreciated. (And I've just signed up #4 )  - 2nd time around. I did this once at 5am this morning. Couldn't have submitted it.

Don't forget to get some videos and share some here. They could assist in getting even more.

[Klara]

17 hours ago, toxo said:

I don't know if you saw them Klara but there was someone on here showing really stunning tooled Borzoi type dog collars. Think they were Russian or similar. (Wasn't you was it?)

Can anyone put a finger on it?

I think I've seen them, but I do make Rika's collars myself, though so far not tooled. But I have very specific requirements for the fastener (I'm using a combination of buckle and martingale) which I'm unlikely to find on a collar to buy. By borzoi-related objects I meant fridge magnets ("Other dogs have masters. Borzoi have staff."), porcelain figures, clothing and accessories. Stuff nobody needs, but which enthusiasts appreciate.

Getting to leather, I'd probably be willing to buy a checkbook cover with borzoi, belt buckle with borzoi (if I hadn't made them) etc. 

Now, borzois are a very narrow niche market. But there's other dog breeds... I also have a friend who buys lots of cat-themed things for another friend.

My point is that ideally a craftsperson should make things that can't be bought industrially made.

[toxo]

8 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Don't forget to get some videos and share some here. They could assist in getting even more.

Let me walk before I start running Brian. You are right though, with two doing Apple watch straps , one doing a corset type handbag and one doing cosplay type shoulder armour there might be a short video in there.

[Handstitched]

@Spyros Wasn't  sure where to put this, but as its to do with 'sales'....

...the silly things people are interested in.  A gentleman came to my stall  last month, me thinking he was interested in a belt or a knife case perhaps,  I'm usually quite good at ' reading' customers , theres heaps of freshly made stock....... but nup.....I have a tiny business card  cane basket that I have my business cards in at my stall, its old, faded , was blue, but now grey and well used...he asked me if I wanted to sell it . " Nah mate...that holds my business cards in it " I politely replied.  He asked me again at  todays stall  , " nah sorry mate... thats for my business cards"  " but if you're ever interested ....."  he said.

Me & Mum just looked at each other ...."WTF ??" 

I paid $2.00 for it  at 'red dot'.  I should have sold it to him for 20 . 

Geez I dunno   

HS