Broken Singer 31K32

[mikesc]

"valley"= ?..I have absolutely no idea which part of car or engine that could be ..
but..I'll bet it isn't a camshaft bearing casting / saddle or a crankshaft bearing casting /saddle
epoxy is epoxy ..which ever country one is in..chemistry is chemistry..
One of the worlds best two part epoxy "with charge" is Milliput..made in Wales..still wouldn't use it for that kind of repair..as a sealer ..yes..like for cracks in engine blocks or gear boxes..
But..for sticking cast iron parts together which are under stress and are "saddles" for spinning shafts or the bearings of spinning shafts..no..when you know what the molecules that are doing the sticking actually are doing ( that is more physics than chemistry ) and look like.and when you know what the crystalline ( yes it is a crystalline structure, that's why it looks as it does ) structure of cast iron can be ..and what impurities can be in it that epoxies may not want to bond to effectively..

Making a bracket ..or a bracket that wraps around an epoxied ( and drilled tapped and pinned or bolted shaft saddle ) and if that "cradling bracket" is itself then bolted to the machine bed, so everything is held rigid, is indeed one way..but, I'd weld it , if it were mine.

If you do go the JBweld or other epoxy route..you must degrease and de-oil the surfaces totally..very thorough acetone cleaning of the mating surfaces before applying the epoxy..and keep your fingers ( which have grease even when freshly washed ) away before applying epoxy ..same applies when you are painting, lacquering etc..

*Some people are allergic to epoxies..so wear gloves ( non latex type hospital lightweight surgeons gloves..in case you are allergic to latex )..that will also keep your natural finger grease out of the mixture..turn the gloves inside out before disposal..

Edited March 30, 2017 by mikesc

[kellyblues]

49 minutes ago, mikesc said:

"valley"= ?..I have absolutely no idea which part of car or engine that could be ..
but..I'll bet it isn't a camshaft bearing casting.

 

 

 

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The valley in a 4 cycle, fossil fuel, internal combustion gasoline  engine is the area below the intake manifold b, between the cylinder heads and encompass the castings for both the camshaft bushings and the valve lifters. You would lose that bet sir. That is precisely where it cracked. Now, I'm not going to pull the intake manifold and the valley pan off that engine just to take pictures.

I've seen external cracks near coolant passages JB'd and lasted the life there after of the vehicle. I personally wouldn't do that, but I've seen it done. I've also seen someone JB a harmonic balancer on the crankshaft of a 355 Buick engine and drove it that way for at least 10 years that I know of like that.

Being a Master  ASE Certified Automotive technician , home and industrial sewing machine mechanic, industrial machine mechanic for the last 20+ years I've seen many different ways to achieve the same goal. If the goal is functional, it's a one hour job. If the goal is reconditioned, it's a job of many hours. Stick weld,gas weld, bracket, JB weld, bracket and JB weld will all achieve functionality.

If this was let's say a 1880 Singer model 12 with gold shell paint and a hundred small pieces of MOP inlay all done by artisans   I would ( and have) weld it. Well worth every last minute it would take. Or the one of a kind Faudels parlor machine that I have for that matter.

This is a machine that Singer made hundreds of thousands of if not millions. Heck I probably have 10 of them in my storage container. I don't buy them anymore unless they are dirt cheap. This machine is the 66 of the industrial machines. The cost of time to weld it and refinish the bed if needed along with the necessary adjustments would replace it twice.

I've shared my opinion and some of the experience it's based on. Over and out.

Edited March 30, 2017 by kellyblues

[mikesc]

"between the cylinder heads"..heads..so a V block then..not an inline..and a crack on the outside ( maybe, or maybe not over a bearing saddle, which in any engine is always thicker ..ie ..more metal..and a non stressed part..but which might leak..so could be repaired with epoxy..

Rather than on the inside..a completely broken off bearing saddle..what we would call the "bearing cap castings"<= which would be the part that would correspond to the part broken on the machine of the OP..and which is a stressed part..in an engine..or sewing machine..which could not successfully be repaired with epoxy.

"Master ASE Certified Automotive technician ,"..sorry..and I normally try to avoid such contests..but I think that a degree in physics and another in chemistry ( and some others in related and unrelated subjects ) plus been doing my own engine work ..and custom engine work on bikes boats and cars since the late 60's..sort of gives me the edge on epoxies and what they can and can't do..and the professional machine mechanic<=Eric..and the Machine importer<=Bob..seem to be more to my way of thinking..I know who I'd trust to work on a machine that I owned..or whose advice I'd listen too..and already do..

Epoxies such as JBWeld are known ( or used to be known ) in the UK as "Bodgers putty"..barely better than two part "bondo"..and chemically very very similar..
Usually used by those who cannot weld ( or "lead" in the case of "body bondo" ) to precision standards..resins are usually to be used with specific tissues or fabrics ( glass fibre, carbon fibre, kevlar etc )..and then you can use them to make panels and chassis ( frames ) and whatever , even some engines, or engine parts, depending on the temps they reach ), with great strength ..NASA etc do ..
But resins are not for professional long term repairs to cast metal..( with the possible exception of sticking sheets of metal to other sheets of metal or other substances,such as flat surface items to cast iron* , or where the surface areas compared to the loads and stress are in greater proportions, so you can use resins to stick sandwiches of diverse metals to each other, or to non metal substances ) especially cast iron<= this is why you don't stick engine mounting blocks to engines with epoxies..they won't stay "stuck"..

Some of us spent many years using resins for our professional work..some of folks ( usually non professionals ) use them for a "quick fix"..which is why you find them at the supermarket next to the kitty litter.

Resins are what the modern "plastic" home sewing machines are made from..and are fine for fixing / glueing broken parts on them..but they are not how pros fix metal parts in or on pro machines..

* epoxy used to stick a flat plate to a flat piece of preped cast iron will work..providing the vibrations are low, the stress forces are low, and especially the "shear" forces are low..if there is vibration to deal with Urethanes would be better for that ..but not to stick the OPs machine back together..they are sticky, but flexible..and you don't want flexible there..epoxy also degrades over time and in the presence of other chemicals..How fast it does so can be unpredictable..

I'd rather fix what I fix to be sure to last..( I make my stuff the same way ) than hope I get lucky re "the lasting" with a JBweld or other "quick and easy, cheap fix"..

Going to make quality items, use quality equipment, use quality materials, make quality repairs..do the best you can..( and be proud of what you do or make )..Don't use the quickest, easiest, cheapest that you can..leave that way of thinking to walmart.

btw..Bodger in that sense is not what Harry ( member here does..) bodger in colloquial English means "unskilled, uncaring worker"..makes cheap crappy items, or repairs ..

Edited March 30, 2017 by mikesc

[MADMAX22]

5 hours ago, kellyblues said:

I have all of the singer taps and dies

Ya know if you made some copies of these I am sure a bunch of people would be appreciative and pay accordingly.

[Constabulary]

You can call a JB weld repair what ever you want - as long as it delivers a good result its not better or worse that any other repair. Even when you call it a "bodger" repair - who care when it works. A lot depends on repair situation and how you prepare a certain repair. Not everybody is a professional and / or needs the best professional solution. And when you live in a remote / rural area and have no access to professional welding or brazing and have to deal with what you have then JB weld really can be a life saver. There is always a pro and contra... at the end you have to decide what you want to "invest" for a repair on a fairly common sewing machine. It often is an economical decision.

[LumpenDoodle2]

As a mere wimmin, and a bodge expert, If it were me, I'd drill 2 holes through the broken bit.   Line it up in place, mark through the holes, then drill two holes in machine.  I'd then thread the holes, screw the whole thing down, with maybe a smear of jb weld, and some loktite on the threads.   Finish by filing the screw heads as smooth as keeps one happy.

Might work, might not.   

 

[Evo160K]

So this is perhaps a bit off topic, but it's so unusual...at least for me....I thought some of you might appreciate it.  This is courtesy of my friend with the broken vintage fan, he repaired it with the pins and Loctite method mentioned above.

He went on to say, and I quote, " on my suzuki TS-125 I had the head bolts pull out of the cylinder, so I just drilled a small hole through the casting and pinned the head studs in place, it held and was able to torque down the head.  I used steel brads for that repair.  saved me having to get helicoils or some other drill and retap method."

Now I thought that was trick.

 

[mikesc]

Problem with any ideas of drilling two holes ( one either side of the shaft ) tapping them and pinning them on the OPs machine..is that only one side ( the upper side as we look at the photo ) has enough metal to be able to drill a hole..The shaft goes through the metal "off centre"..look carefully at the lower part of the break, and there is less than 5mm of metal available to drill there..and the break is holding the shaft in place, so there is really maybe only 3mm of metal "drillable" without hitting the shaft..If the drill bit has to be centred ( it does ) that means only 1mm of metal will be left to either side of the hole..Into this 1mm "wall" you'd have to tap a thread..I have ( as do no doubt many of you ) tiny tap and die sets..( right down to watch makers sizes ) measure the diameter of the smallest practical tap that would hold in cast iron..that will be the 2mm one..and you'll realise that although there is enough metal to work with and drill into at the ( as we look at it ) "top" of the break.. There is not enough metal to drill and tap into at the bottom of the break.

Cast iron is fairly rough crystalline structure..large crystals..requires coarse taps..which is why Singer etc used coarse taps..coarse taps need larger diameter holes in order for bolts and screws to hold..The "thread" part cannot be a lager proportion of the diameter than either the shaft of the screw or bolt, of the hole that the screw or bolt is going into.

How many 1mm or 2mm diameter screws or bolts do you find screwed into any cast iron parts on your Singers ?

There is also the matter of holding a part steadily enough to be able to drill it with small diameter drills and using small diameter taps..both of which are very brittle and will snap easily..Singers were drilled and machined after casting in cradles to hold them steady..( as can be seen in the Singer film in the Scottish archives ) ..they were not using Dremels and bench drills on a sewing machine head casting which would have to be turned upside down..and locked rigidly "on it's back" before drilling with highly brittle fragile tiny diameter drill bits and taps..and if the drill bit so much as glances off the shaft while it's making the hole in that very restricted less than 3mm wide area..it will break due to the differences in the density and hardness of the two metal across the shaft of the drill bit.

ps ..if JBweld was actually called JBglue ( which is truly what it is..it does not weld anything, no resin glue does ) then people would not think that it can do "magic"..epoxies do not "fuse" metal together..they stick it..

Marketing does not actually triumph over physics or chemistry..only in peoples expectations and beliefs..

Pins and loctite ( another brand name for an epoxy resin ) will work in many situations..it is actually how most restoration and repair of antique statues is done..and there are variants of the technique used in surgery ( and much research currently being done on the possible "glues" ) but there must be enough "whatever" available to be able to drill into..and a two second glance at the OP photo shows that is not the case on the lower part of the break..I presume Eric and Bob noticed that immediately too.

Edited March 31, 2017 by mikesc

[mikesc]

There is of course also the problem that if the OP tries to drill and pin with JBweld ( or any other epoxy resin that they can get in what is apparently "darkest furthest reaches of Scotland ) and the drill bit snaps off, the tap breaks, or the drilling makes more of the cast iron break off.

Then they are screwed..

True welding will then be out, as welding two substantial parts together is possible..welding three ( or more ) parts some of which would then be tiny would not be possible without very very expensive and specialised equipment.

[LumpenDoodle2]

2 hours ago, mikesc said:

There is of course also the problem that if the OP tries to drill and pin with JBweld ( or any other epoxy resin that they can get in what is apparently "darkest furthest reaches of Scotland ) and the drill bit snaps off, the tap breaks, or the drilling makes more of the cast iron break off.

Then they are screwed..

True welding will then be out, as welding two substantial parts together is possible..welding three ( or more ) parts some of which would then be tiny would not be possible without very very expensive and specialised equipment.

Bummer........

[suzelle]

Nice machine there! Sorry it was damaged. I have gotten them that way before! Had one sent to me that was bouncing around in a box with styrofoam peanuts. An old 201k with it's dome shaped wooden carrier. Smashed to smitherines.

[torrbuidhe]

Hoy, this isn't darkest Scotland, that's down near Moffat. This is the treeless northern plain where wolves and musk ox roam

No JB Weld locally but I could get it delivered here, you can even get sewing machines delivered here

Somebody has recommended a local steelworking firm so I'll try them next week

Neil

 

[gottaknow]

As a side note, I use cobalt drill bits with a 135 degree tip on cast iron. I always use cutting oil as well. When I'm using my cordless, I take it off the drill setting and use the clutch set on a fairly low setting. It prevents broken bits. When tapping, I cut no more than two threads before backing the tap out to clean it. I've broken bits for sure. Usually they become a permanent part of the machine. 

Honestly, I'm really opinionated when it comes to metal working as it relates to sewing machines. I was fortunate to have two old timers train me. You'll find no JB Weld in my factory. I did use it during my years as a locksmith and safe technician though. 

Regards, Eric. 

[dikman]

Mike, thanks for a most interesting discourse. While I'm in no way in your league (some would say I'm one level above bodgery!) I do know that old cast iron is a bugger to work with. It's hard to drill, I've broken the odd tap or two when attempting to work with it and as Eric said they usually then become part of the metal!! I once repaired a piece with an ordinary arc welder (it was all I had handy) and more by luck than anything else it worked.

LumpenDoodle, you've got the term "mere wimmin" wrong (besides your shocking spelling ). The correct usage is "mere male", I've never heard it applied to the female persuasion. After all, we all know women can multi-task whereas men often struggle if attempting more than one thing at a time.

[George1520]

The best way to weld cast iron is to heat it red hot first and then braze it with bronze roads. The heating part is important  and it it will destroy the paint around the weld.

Unless you have other cracks, leave it the way it is. There is still plenty of tread and and material for to nut to tighten. Also, look for bend shafts too. 

[LumpenDoodle2]

2 hours ago, dikman said:

LumpenDoodle, you've got the term "mere wimmin" wrong (besides your shocking spelling ). The correct usage is "mere male", I've never heard it applied to the female persuasion. After all, we all know women can multi-task whereas men often struggle if attempting more than one thing at a time.

Well spotted, but the spelling is a gentle homage to the satirical magazine Private Eye, and I'm going for my Uriah Heep 'Umble' badge this week   Sadly, I'm unable to get the tongue in cheek, or irony emoticon to work.   But there again, only the gods can achieve perfection.

[RockyAussie]

3 hours ago, dikman said:

I do know that old cast iron is a bugger to work with. It's hard to drill, I've broken the odd tap or two when attempting to work with it and as Eric said they usually then become part of the metal!!

Just a tip to try. I have had the same thing happen more times than I care to admit but I have had success in removing the broken taps when they ended up level by using a Dremel cutting disc and cutting an Allen key to suit. Normally the 3 prongs end up at 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep. Works most times.

[dikman]

Thanks mate, I'll keep that in mind for next time (although the last one I broke recently, when repairing my treadle, was well and truly stuck!).

[Diyer]

In the days when I was helping run a motorcycle shop, I have memories of getting broken fins off cast iron barrels (BSA A10) brazed back on. I think it was heated first in a muffle.There was a local specialist, Smethwick welding, that did the work. Now long gone.

[mikesc]

"bronze roads" ..bronze rods..or New England accent ;) ?
Problem with that advice is that bronze is a metal alloy..or to be more accurate which bronze you have determines what is in the alloy and what the percentages of each metal are in relation to the whole ( and how much carbon, there will be some. there is in your bronze etc )..There is no bronze in the periodic table of elements, and no set formula for what is meant by "bronze"..bronze is about as accurate a term as "cheese"..Problem when you don't know what is in it and in what proportions is that you then don(t know at what temp it will begin to melt, what temp it will begin solidifying, what the flow will be like, what ( and how ) it will combine with, how strong will be the resulting alloys ( secondary and tertiary alloys ) at the joining faces of the weld, what will be the penetration characteristics etc etc.

aside..Working with bronze in any form is "interesting", and bronze casting is an art..repairing bronze castings is far harder than repairing cast iron..although cast iron is also a bit of a vague term, cast iron is also full of non iron impurities and other elemental improvements..metallurgy is a whole set of degrees and studies and disciplines in itself.

You can do trial and error to find out how any given welding rods will work on any given welding job of course, but in the OPs case that would mean deliberately breaking off other parts just to see how they welded back together.

Nice part of the work Neil..( and superb photo ) but not surprised to hear that the machine arrived broken if it was delivered by mountain bike over that sort of terrain

[torrbuidhe]

8 hours ago, mikesc said:

Nice part of the work Neil..( and superb photo ) but not surprised to hear that the machine arrived broken if it was delivered by mountain bike over that sort of terrain

That's an enormous peat bog, if you dropped the machine there it wouldn't break,  it would sink.

I heard back from the seller, they say they packed it well and the courier made it kaput. Aye, right.

Neil

[mikesc]

aside..So..what looks like the trig' point is constructed on previously delivered singers, but not on their packaging ;)

I thought it looked like there were boggish parts, but in Ireland ( where I'm origanally from ) we don't do pristine peat bogs on quite that scale..ours tend to be worked ( peat extracted partially or entirely ) and full of my relatives ( small place, everyone is related somehow to everyone, 19th cousins twice removed etc ) posing with bepaniered[sic?] donkeys for tacky tourist postcards..You could make money with that photo, got any more of that quality composition, watermark them ( via a faded / ghosted method* through the middle , not the edges so your watermark cannot be cropped ) and make yourself** a site to commercialise them through.

* and **Don't know how ? ..drop me a pm and I'll explain.
/aside..

Edited April 1, 2017 by mikesc

[fredk]

I assume you did not buy it in person? EU Distance Selling Regulations [DSR] clearly state that the sender is ultimately fully responsible for getting the goods to the buyer in good condition and fit for purpose. You are only responsible if you specified the seller to use a certain courier. Its up to the seller to claim off the courier

Not knowing how you paid for it, unless it was by cash or BACS, you could put the case to the payment agency. [eg credit card or paypal]

This is UK & EU law; does not apply to other countries ouside these areas

[mikesc]

DSR doesn't AKAIK apply to transactions between two private individuals..but yes..if Neil bought it from anyone registered as a business in the EU, a "chargeback" on the card ( or paypal if they were involved ) could very well work..I'm registered in both the UK and France as a business(es) and I have to abide by both UK and EU distance selling regs.

[torrbuidhe]

The biggest blanket bog in the world, 1500 square miles.

Thanks for the complements about the photo, I think my digital compact camera limits the image quality for commercial use though. My sister's partner has sold the odd photo (he has a pro quality DSLR) and he's a web developer so I'm well supported on that front. A welder would be much handier just now of course.

I bought the machine on ebay so I'm going through their resolution process.