A liitle change to make a BIG differance on Cowboy sewing machines

[RockyAussie]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:57 AM, Spyros said:

you sure you don't have a third arm somewhere? LOL

Ha ha...don't I wish. Another 2 would be better but then I'd be wanting more again I'm sure.

On 2/15/2022 at 8:03 AM, Thescandall said:

rockyaussie, i spammed the techsew forum im a member of with your narrow needle plate and dog. hope your email blows up. 

im going to put it to work this weekend at the ranch. starting a new gunbelt and im gunna sew it with your stuff.  

Thanks @Thescandall. I hope all goes well and we get to see your new gunbelt when its finished.

[Doc Reaper]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:07 AM, Spyros said:

Thanks Mr JollyDodgerCanvas

One thing that annoys me with those machines is that I have to hold the ends of the threads with my hand to start a stitch.  Problem is that when I start a stitch is when I want my hands free more than any other time.  So I decided to just hold the threads with a magnet.  I had some aspirin-sized magnets in the shed.  I bored a piece of wood with a drill and popped them in there, and then epoxy glued a piece of coarse sandpaper on top to keep the magnets in.

Of course I could've just used a bigger magnet off ebay or something, but that's what I had on hand.  Either way it works great:  

I wonder why I haven't seen other people doing this, is there a reason that I shouldn't either?

What am I looking at in the first picture? To me it looks like a piece of wood with with a curved recess area filled with black grease. Could you please pm some pics with brighter lights, and explain it like I’m almost 2????   ;  )

[Spyros]

9 minutes ago, Doc Reaper said:

What am I looking at in the first picture? To me it looks like a piece of wood with with a curved recess area filled with black grease. Could you please pm some pics with brighter lights, and explain it like I’m almost 2????   ;  )

That's pretty much the best photos I can take... it is indeed a piece of wood but the "grease" you see is just some brown 240 grit sandpaper glued on the wood.  And under the sandpaper there is a hole in the wood that holds a few small magnets, that's all.

Honestly don't bother with it, one of those $10 magnetic phone holders that mount on the air vents in the car will do just a good job of holding the thread down.

[Thescandall]

I found these 2 neo mags in my junk drawer. Strong suckers. I’m gunna try it on my 5100. 

[dikman]

Good idea with the magnets, it never occurred to me to use them like that. I have several that I've removed from old hard drives that should work (hard drives are a great source for very strong magnets).

[Patrick1]

Great idea, so I decided to make my own parts on my Haas cnc mill. Will up load the finished product later in the day. Was going to make the stirrup and holster plate and along came this post. Not into selling them just rather make my own stuff. Received my Cobra 4 last week and as you can see the stitch size plate had to be shimmed before they shipped it to me. Not too happy about that from the Leather machine co. Chinese world class manufacturing. Have to make a new plate without the shim.

[alpha2]

48 minutes ago, Patrick1 said:

Great idea, so I decided to make my own parts on my Haas cnc mill. Will up load the finished product later in the day. Was going to make the stirrup and holster plate and along came this post. Not into selling them just rather make my own stuff. Received my Cobra 4 last week and as you can see the stitch size plate had to be shimmed before they shipped it to me. Not too happy about that from the Leather machine co. Chinese world class manufacturing. Have to make a new plate without the shim.

There's something fishy about that shim. Someone went to a lot of trouble to bend the sides up, and cut the slot. Wouldn't a washer have done the same thing? And what difference does the shim make? The movement of the lever is mostly up/down, not in/out. The in/out is adjustable with the knurled wheel, anyway. I just had a horrible thought, what if the top bolt there was a little too long, and they didn't want to walk over to the bin for the correct bolt. Heck, even if they wanted to shim it with that, a half or three-quarter inch long piece would have done the trick, unless they searched the scrap pile and found something there that "kinda" worked.

Jeff

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, alpha2 said:

There's something fishy about that shim. Someone went to a lot of trouble to bend the sides up, and cut the slot. Wouldn't a washer have done the same thing? And what difference does the shim make? The movement of the lever is mostly up/down, not in/out. The in/out is adjustable with the knurled wheel, anyway. I just had a horrible thought, what if the top bolt there was a little too long, and they didn't want to walk over to the bin for the correct bolt. Heck, even if they wanted to shim it with that, a half or three-quarter inch long piece would have done the trick, unless they searched the scrap pile and found something there that "kinda" worked.

Jeff

I used a small washer on my machine. It really does work to correct the reverse, as long as the timing of the inside foot and needle is matched. Until I put a washer under the top of my stitch nacelle, reverse never matched forward 100%. Now it does. It beats laying the machine down and dinking with the internal cams.

[RockyAussie]

18 hours ago, Patrick1 said:

Great idea, so I decided to make my own parts on my Haas cnc mill. Will up load the finished product later in the day. Was going to make the stirrup and holster plate and along came this post. Not into selling them just rather make my own stuff. Received my Cobra 4 last week and as you can see the stitch size plate had to be shimmed before they shipped it to me. Not too happy about that from the Leather machine co. Chinese world class manufacturing. Have to make a new plate without the shim.

Looks a bit like my first efforts when I was working out how to make them. I eventually made the needle plate shaped to allow smaller gussets and stuff to run through. As in this pic -

Something you can do pretty easy but the dog foot may be a whole other story.....There is not a lot of metal in the web to support this shape and CNC cutting I think you will find will not give you the strength needed to resist the pressure of the foot bending the feed dog down and into the needle plate. This is why we decided to go with the casting and hardening process as the original machine makers have as well. If you stick to the light weight work it may be alright maybe.

17 hours ago, alpha2 said:

There's something fishy about that shim. Someone went to a lot of trouble to bend the sides up, and cut the slot. Wouldn't a washer have done the same thing? And what difference does the shim make?

You can do as Wiz said and use a washer instead IF you can get the right thickness to suit what adjustment is needed. Some machines can go out of adjustment and they can be hard to get every thing back where they should be. With this shim with the slot method the more in and down it goes the more the adjustment plate is angled forward and thus limiting the reverse length stitch to where it may need to be. Depending on the thickness of leather that gets used on a given job the amount that the adjustment plate needs to be angled may differ from a thinner or thicker job and this gives a quick and easy way to do any correction that may be needed. Some Adler machines along this line used an angle iron shape with adjustable pins that allowed you to limit both the forward and reverse stitch lengths. Myself... although my machine does do a good job at reverse stitching I never trust that I am going to get the needle back in the hole exactly where I want it to go so I just lift the foot and go back by hand a few times. If the machine does it it can spear and cut the threads a bit more than I do. Note: most of the stuff I make is out of crocodile and pretty high end so maybe I am over fussy.

[alpha2]

Ah, that's what I didn't get. The reverse stitch length. Yes it would affect that. I just couldn't figure it out on my own. Difference between a newbie and you all. Now I need to check my reverse stitches and see just how well they match up. My education continues...

I can see where Croc could be less forgiving.

Thanks!

Edited March 6, 2022 by alpha2

[alpha2]

21 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I used a small washer on my machine. It really does work to correct the reverse, as long as the timing of the inside foot and needle is matched. Until I put a washer under the top of my stitch nacelle, reverse never matched forward 100%. Now it does. It beats laying the machine down and dinking with the internal cams.

ANYTHING beats laying the machine down and dinking with the internal cams. I can see where that could go south in a hurry. I've dinked enough with the internals just slightly adjusting the time on my CB4500. 

Spell-check is choking on "dinking". Spell-check needs to get out more.

[chrisash]

Nothing wrong with my spool-check

[suzelle]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:54 PM, dikman said:

I've already ordered one. Jess just sent me the invoice so now it's a matter of Australia Post deciding how long they decide to take to get it here.

This is probably the quickest I've ever bought something without thinking about it first. It looks like it will make the big 4500 a much more useful machine overall. What size thread/needle were you using on the wallets?

Oh, so excited for you!!! Dikman  Sewing machine envy over here.

[TomE]

Thanks so much for explaining this adjustment.  I've learned so much from this thread and forum about using and maintaining my 441 clone.  Much appreciated.

[Wizcrafts]

My hope is that as a result of the things discussed in this topic about matching forward and reverse stitch lengths, that the assault against our dealers will stop. No machine is perfect all the time unless it has expensive electronic controls that make it sell for $10k (think Adler 969 ECO). I am happy to be able to buy a heavy leather stitcher for about $3k that does the same sewing, but needs a little adjustment with a round washer.

 

[Spyros]

I think it will take me a while to fully trust the machine for critically visible stitches.  Sometimes it does things that I can't predict (yet), like chew through the thread or change stitching length.   But I realise it's probably just me pushing it to the limits, sometimes I hold the piece too tightly because I'm nervous, sometimes I start stitching 4 layers of bridle without testing the tension first, things like that.

One thing I know for sure is I love the machine but I hate every thread I've bought so far, machine thread is a total joke compared to a hand stitching thread like Ritza or similar.  It's fragile, I don't trust it at all and it makes me want to do weird things like double and triple stitch some high tension areas like gussets on turned bags.  Maybe I need to find a better brand, not sure.

 

[RockyAussie]

Couple of things come to mind when you say about the stitch length changing. The way the feed works on these machines means that as the leather thickness goes up the stitches get a little shorter in length. Not something you would notice on most jobs because you would seldom go from very thin to very thick. I did have a problem awhile back where when I was doing a large run of products the stitch length would not keep the same number of stitches at the same spacing piece after piece. I fixed that by putting in some more notches into the adjustment knob which you can see details of in this earlier post I did -

Regarding the threads....My favourite is Aman Strongbond but getting anyone here that stocks a good range I have not found lately. I was getting it from Shann accessories down there but there range is getting dismal these days https://www.theshanngroup.com/product/amann-strongbond-thread-bonded-nylon/

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

Couple of things come to mind when you say about the stitch length changing. The way the feed works on these machines means that as the leather thickness goes up the stitches get a little shorter in length. Not something you would notice on most jobs because you would seldom go from very thin to very thick. I did have a problem awhile back where when I was doing a large run of products the stitch length would not keep the same number of stitches at the same spacing piece after piece. I fixed that by putting in some more notches into the adjustment knob which you can see details of in this earlier post I did -

Regarding the threads....My favourite is Aman Strongbond but getting anyone here that stocks a good range I have not found lately. I was getting it from Shann accessories down there but there range is getting dismal these days https://www.theshanngroup.com/product/amann-strongbond-thread-bonded-nylon/

I know, and the range gets worse and worse as you go to thicker threads that I use.  I think my best hope is ordering from o/s, I just have to find someone with not insane shipping charges (ie not threadexchange).  The changing stitch length happened on a turned bag gusset with some pretty stiff bridle leather so there were a few things at play: me trying to push a whole bag under the needle, the leather not being equally glued flat around the bend, jumping from 3 layers to two layers in another spot.... God knows what caused it.  But when the circumstances are normal it holds the stitch length perfectly in forward and reverse so I'm not worried about it (yet).  The chewing the thread part happened when I decided to do a long stitch in reverse (don't ask, it was just more comfortable), so maybe it's just not supposed to do that.  On the 20th stitch or so the thread just frayed and snapped.  Not worried about that either, I was probably just being dumb.

I still need to iron out my tensioning method though.  The top dials seem to do nothing at all, I started with quarter turns and half turns, and ended up turning them 10 whole turns either way with pretty much zero change in the actual stitch.   The only way I have to sink the loops inside the leather is from adding bobbin tension, which I can only do so many times before I strip this little machine screw and then good luck finding a replacement.  Again, I know it's me and something I've done, because the machine was stitching perfectly when delivered.  I just have to figure out how to dial it back to those settings and start from there little by little every time I need to adjust tension.  To be fair I'm probably fussier than most, I want the loop *exactly* in the middle, I always do a trial on an offcut and then cut the leather to see exactly where the loop is LOL 

Might be a simple matter of threading the machine differently, I've seen a couple of videos that have little differences between them.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Spyros

[Patrick1]

Made in the U.S.A. narrow dog with a flat plat and works great. Made the small slot plates but don't think I'll be needing them. I think the flat plate is better for what I'm doing, definitely more control. Also made a holster plate and down the road will make the stirrup plate when I build my saddles. Awesome idea! 

[RockyAussie]

On 2/13/2022 at 10:48 AM, JollyDodgerCanvas said:

The Cowboy4500 is fully manually oiled, no wicks no pumps. Oil a lot more frequently than other machines. I had a chat with my dealer about oiling the hook race frequently, hourly if you are running the machine constantly. He told me about a customer who didn't oil the hook enough and the steel turned color due to the heat build up.

Had one come in to be retimed last week was getting that way. They had not oiled the hook for 6 years among a whole lot of other parts. Good thing that the parts are able to be replaced still. Yes they had a manual ...just did not think unless something was wrong they would needed to look at it.

[Constabulary]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:01 PM, Wizcrafts said:

My hope is that as a result of the things discussed in this topic about matching forward and reverse stitch lengths, that the assault against our dealers will stop. No machine is perfect all the time unless it has expensive electronic controls that make it sell for $10k (think Adler 969 ECO). I am happy to be able to buy a heavy leather stitcher for about $3k that does the same sewing, but needs a little adjustment with a round washer.

 

  

weeeellll.... Not the same machine - I´m aware of that - but my decades old Singer 45D91 is matching in F + R no mater the stitch length I dialed in. It has an internal "butterfly" and the adjustment screw (the one left of the reverse lever) is the stop for the forward "wing" and for the reverse "wing" (if you can imagine what I mean). Pretty simple and very effective design. I think it is the same F + R  mechanism as in the 31K32 just scaled up. But thats maybe not fancy enough for nowadays machines. The simple things are often the best. But that's a different story but looks like it was possible to design a simple and effective reverse mechanism decades ago already. Wondering if original JUKI 441 users have F + R problems with their machines as well.

To be honest in the 21st Century a sewing machine factory and their dealers should be able to set up F + R stitch length matching if that is not possible (ex factory) I would say back to the drawing board. I don´t think this should be anything magic that sometimes work and sometimes don`t work (on a new machine). If it does not work then what is the purpose of having the reverse? You cannot expect that every sewing machine user is a tinkering guy and is able to help his / herself.

If the only problem was a few washers then why not include them and mention the process in the manual (takes a few hours for creating a few pages and include them in the manual). If washers are included and the "how to" is mentioned in the manual (f.i. as in Singer 111G156 / 211 manuals ) -  fine - if not - IMO factory / dealer failure and I would not accept the machine and either have the dealer to fix it , return the machine or get some $ back. 1K or 3K or 10K - does not matter IMO. From the perspective of a average sewing machine customer: If the machine has reverse I would expect that it works properly under normal sewing conditions and it has been properly adjusted when I´m buying a new machine (used from private seller is a different story). This has nothing to do with bashing or assaulting this is just what I would expect when I´m buying a new device.

Conclusion: when there is a simple solution for the F+ R stitch length issue it should be mentioned in the manual - thats stupid simple.

[Spyros]

Well oiling so frequently is great for the machine but not so great for the leather, if you overdo it even a little bit it will absolutely spew oil on your work (and your shoes, don't ask me how I know)

[chrisash]

On 5/16/2022 at 11:48 AM, Constabulary said:

  

weeeellll.... Not the same machine - I´m aware of that - but my decades old Singer 45D91 is matching in F + R no mater the stitch length I dialed in. It has an internal "butterfly" and the adjustment screw (the one left of the reverse lever) is the stop for the forward "wing" and for the reverse "wing" (if you can imagine what I mean). Pretty simple and very effective design. I think it is the same F + R  mechanism as in the 31K32 just scaled up. But thats maybe not fancy enough for nowadays machines. The simple things are often the best. But that's a different story but looks like it was possible to design a simple and effective reverse mechanism decades ago already. Wondering if original JUKI 441 users have F + R problems with their machines as well.

To be honest in the 21st Century a sewing machine factory and their dealers should be able to set up F + R stitch length matching if that is not possible (ex factory) I would say back to the drawing board. I don´t think this should be anything magic that sometimes work and sometimes don`t work (on a new machine). If it does not work then what is the purpose of having the reverse? You cannot expect that every sewing machine user is a tinkering guy and is able to help his / herself.

If the only problem was a few washers then why not include them and mention the process in the manual (takes a few hours for creating a few pages and include them in the manual). If washers are included and the "how to" is mentioned in the manual (f.i. as in Singer 111G156 / 211 manuals ) -  fine - if not - IMO factory / dealer failure and I would not accept the machine and either have the dealer to fix it , return the machine or get some $ back. 1K or 3K or 10K - does not matter IMO. From the perspective of a average sewing machine customer: If the machine has reverse I would expect that it works properly under normal sewing conditions and it has been properly adjusted when I´m buying a new machine (used from private seller is a different story). This has nothing to do with bashing or assaulting this is just what I would expect when I´m buying a new device.

Conclusion: when there is a simple solution for the F+ R stitch length issue it should be mentioned in the manual - thats stupid simple.

Agree its not a assault on dealers but highlighting faults that have been found, so that hopefully the dealers and makers can bring in solutions, Advertisers must accept the good praise they get and the notification's on when there are faults

[RockyAussie]

4 hours ago, Spyros said:

Well oiling so frequently is great for the machine but not so great for the leather, if you overdo it even a little bit it will absolutely spew oil on your work (and your shoes, don't ask me how I know)

Good thing is generally most sewing machine oil does not leave any marks on leather after it dries out absorbs or whatever. To skip a good oiling practice is not a good idea especially if you think that 6 years between is alright .

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

Agree its not a assault on dealers but highlighting faults that have been found, so that hopefully the dealers and makers can bring in solutions, Advertisers must accept the good praise they get and the notification's on when there are faults

I do agree but I will add that to the best of my knowledge here in Australia the machines are checked and adjusted if need be before they go out to the customers. The shim for aiding in getting the back stitch length correct is more of a recent addition on these machines and I believe it is provided so as to make it easier for the customer to do it them selves if things move out of place over time. It is a fairly difficult procedure to explain and show all the steps involved to the average person and they can end up creating more of a problem if they do it wrongly. I do believe it would be a good idea to add into the dealers manuals and or video library an explanation on how to use the shim if ever needed so I think I will try and put something together for the dealers to use if they want. The dealers look after me pretty good over here so it will help me pay back some. (They sent me a new drop down guide and stainless steel flat table top attachment today for the CB4500 to test and try)

[Doc Reaper]

Hey Rocky, must be nice to get free shhtuff from folks that want you to test it out. I have to order everything and pay premium price to get it.

if I had the tools I’d be making parts for my 4500, I’m sure there are folks that have ability but don’t know how to sell the part they make. I’m still trying to figure out how to use the holster plate! I have made holsters by hand and machine and my daughter thought I needed one, at the moment it’s a dust collector.