bruce johnson

SmokinP, There are several basketstamp makers, and several styles of centers. You can go from the lower end TLF stamps to handmades. A little about my preferences with baskets first. I like the the centers to be pretty "crisp" and make a nice impression. I like the legs to be a medium thickness. Too thick and they tend to look more open. Too thin and they tend to cut the leather rather than compress it, especially on tipped impressions. The thinner legs are also less forgiving if you get a bit off on your lining up, they miss while a slightly thicker one will overlap and won't be as obvious. Thinner legs can also be a little stickier to run. I like the area between the the legs to be deep at the ends. Some of the off-the-rack stamps are and some aren't. The shallower the stamp, the more you just mash everything down, not just the center. I like the centers deep and the weave to pop up. Some makers make their baskets more rectangular than others. I like a middle of the road, not square but not excessively long. Size-wise to start off, a middle size is probably best. The TLF 511 equivalent is a pretty versatile size. I use the equivalent of the #500 on smaller things and the larger ones on others. I have a variety of centers. I have the lined centers, ropes, dots, diamonds, braids, and thanks to a pal, some with my initials and my wife's initials. Personally I like the lined centers, but use the others quite a bit too to mix it up. As far as makers, there are a bunch of guys making them. I have some old Craftools that are pretty good. I had some that I didn't like too. I would not spend all day hunting down a good one, though. I have a basket from Ellis Barnes that is a pretty good one, although just a bit thin on the legs and is slightly sticky. I like Barry King's the best. For the money (about $40), they are my best bargain in stamps. The stamps are made the way I like them shape and depth wise, legs are the thickness I like, and he has a variety of centers. Most of them he has in stock, so you aren't waiting forever to get them. He did a custom one with my son's brand in the center that is really cool, and only about $10 more than a normal. Jeremiah Watt has one with a little different center I will probably get when I see them next month. Wayne Jueschke has one that I will get next time I see him too. Bob Beard makes nice ones too. Once you get going with baskets, you will find some of the old line makers - Billy Woodruff, Don King, etc. that have collectible factor plus being users. My thoughts are to get medium sized, well made ones from a modern maker of your choice. Don't spend all day hunting down preletter prefix Craftools, McMillens, or whatever. Then if baskets work for you, find new centers you like or the collectors then. BTW, I kind of remember Custer Park as being near Kankakee? I think I bought some practice calves from a guy up there when I was going to school, but that was 25 years ago.

Ryan, Griff Durham and Chuck were corresponding on doing the book too, but it hasn't happened yet. When Griff was down here for the cowboy museum antique roadshow this summer, I asked him because I had heard the same thing. It has kind of been back-burnered. Griff has quite a lot of Visalia stuff. He has some saddles and stuff in his collection, but the paper is what is neat. He has a binder of original shop photos they took of each saddle as it was completed in-shop for their records. Also he told me he has the engraving plates they used to print the early catalogs too. I think Greg posted a while back that Chuck Stormes recently ended up with Stanley Dias's stamping tools.

Broncobuster, Alright so this is not very scientific, but it is cheap. If it is on just plain old oiled saddle leather and not too deep, I spit on my thumb and rub the scratch to burnish it.

I'm with Mike C. I have quite a few barrel racing clients. They really seem to like the Connie Combs barrel racer that Circle Y put out 20 years ago. The rawhide used to cover a lot of the factory saddles is thin, and usually bleached. It wears throught the grain layer pretty quick and then just rots. They usually want a leather horn cover put back on. It lasts longer and is usually more comfortable in the their hand. Unlike Mike, I toss the horn cap plate, because I always break the prongs or it was just held by a rawhide lip and has no fasteners. I remove the swell cover and do a traditional 3 piece horn cover. Bottom piece, filler layer to prevent rotation, and top cap and neck wraps. If it is a bare metal aluminum horn and not a rawhide covered horn - a tip. On a rawhide covered horn you tack the filler layer and it clinches on the metal cap. With a bare horn I drill and tap three holes through the cap. I then put countersinking machine screws through the filler and cut the excess flush underneath. This secures the filler. Many of these factory jobs with the leather covered horns don't have the filler and get loose - the filler is better. The skirts and swell covers are usually screwed and stapled, so removal is easy and pretty quick. As is replacement. I figure start to finish a 2 hour job, and the pieces all come out of the scrap bin. I haven't had someone want a rebraid for a few years. The Stohlman books, and Harry Adams book both show pretty clearly how to do the leather covers, but working with someone who has patterns already and has done a few is measurably more helpful. I haven't seen the rawhide braided cover illustrated anywhere, but it is pretty straightforward. I think most of what I take off are 3 or 4 strings on each end, so it is a normal 6 or 8 strand over 1/under 1 braid. Cut the strings far enough forward to get a tight braid to start, and it might take some staggered cuts to get it to lay right to start. It takes me twice as long to do a braided cover.

Ryan, I have two that come to mind. I was just in Sheridan last week and Sheridan Leather Outfitters have quite a lot of exotics. They had some nice elephant, ostrich, pretty sure shark, and others. Since they sell to the saddle trade, they are pretty in tune with it. I also have bought stingray, ostrich, frogs, and something that escapes me now from Jerry Van Amburg in Santa Monica. I started with him at the shows, but also have phone ordered from him. I haven't dealt with John Fong in SF, but some guys do. Jerry has a website - www.vanamburgleathers.com. He has been easy for me to deal with. I have bought elephant from both Jerry and a boot supplier called GH Leather in Houston. One thing with elephant is to buy panels (body leather). Some guys sell ears. I found the ears to be variable in thickness and even some pinholes looking at the shows.

Don, They reran the ranch rodeo series on All Around Performance Horse. I got to see the second go tonight, and they featured you and the saddle under construction. Congratulations again, and it is great to put a face to the name.

Ryan, Consider it done here. Thanks for the update. I hadn't heard much about Forrest in the last year, and was kind of wondering. In our little corner of the world, Shoup saddles are an icon. In the day, the powers that be out here either had a Shoup or VanCore. I hate to sound like a broken record, but some say that there are more good saddlemakers now than ever before. It is because they are standing on the shoulders of guys like this.

Ryan, I like the skiver, and use it more than I thought I would. Mine is a bottom feed Fortuna, which a lot of people told me would not work very well for what I wanted. The thing is, most of the skivers come with a stone feed wheel. They grip and feed soft chrometan leathers very well. On vegtan leathers they may spin, smoke and glaze up on the surface and not feed. Arnold set me up with the stone wheel, but also sold me a steel wheel. The steel wheel is like the feed roller on a crank splitter, it gets ahold. He also set me up with different roller presser feet for the vegtan to help feed. He was really helpful. DW Frommer referred me to him. I can use up heavier leather and skive the edges thinner to make checkbooks, and bible covers, etc- gouge the center fold, and leave it fuller in the middle to really get some depth. The thin edges make a cleaner look. I had some heavy mule hide that I was able to run through and split even enough that I could get use the top and skiving both for wraps. That was cool. Not an everyday using machine, but dang sure worthwhile. Come over and play with it. You can skive, and I'll come over there when you get the bandknife splitter.

Ryan, Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. The saddle looks great. I especially like the way the carving flows around the meander on the back billets. Seeing some Visalia influence in the leaves and florals too. Nice, nice, nice.

Pete, There are several styles of splitters, and I am not sure which one you have. Is this a splitter with a handle like the Campbell-Randall, Osborne 84, or the one Ryan Neel is selling, or is it one with a thumb lever to release the pressure like the Osborne 86? If the strap is riding up the blade bevel, it may be a couple of things. The Osborne 84, and the TLF model have a brass bar that holds the strap down in front of the blade to help prevent the strap riding up the bevel. It also protects the blade from getting dull by hitting your finger and getting corrosion from the iron in your blood. If yours doesn't have the bar, you probably will need to hold the strap down. Even on the one with the holddown I had, I would occasionally chop a strap if I hit a hard spot, or the blade was a bit dull. Also a longer bevel on the blade will slice easier and be less likely to grab the strap. Most of the new ones have a fairly steep bevel. Regarding setting the roller height, that should be a solid setting. You shouldn't need to hold anything to keep it in place once set. Depending on the type of splitter, the position of the blade edge relative to the high point of the roller can make a serious difference. If the blade is behind the roller peak, they will chop pretty easily if you are pulling up a bit. All this said, I really prefer the Chase pattern splitters. They have top and bottom rollers the leather goes through right before it hits the blade. With both rollers, it is nearly impossible to ride up and chop a strap, easy to adjust if out of level, and easy to adjust height. They usually are not all that spendy compared to other splitters.

Ryan, Welcome to the group. I bought a bell knife skiver from Melanie Machine in LA last spring. Arnold has a warehouse full of machinery. At that time he had a few bandknife splitters. He has a good reputation for machinery, and sure treated me right.

Hilly, You can get the Bob Douglas blades from Sheridan Leather Outfitters in Sheridan Wyoming. They also have the awl hafts in a few sizes to fit your preferences. Osborne tools can be bought a Siegel Of California in Buellton, CA. The Douglas ones are ready to use, the Osbornes need a little help. Someone correct me, but my TLF manager said they were getting away from stocking the Osborne tools. I did see they had the Osborne round knife in the new catalog, priced at something close to $100. As a tip I flatten one side of my awl haft. My fingers lay against it, and I know when I hold it that the blade is sitting at the correct angle. It also makes it less prone to roll off the bench and damage the tip on the floor. I do this with all of my bladed wood handle tools. I had a string bleeder roll off and stick in the top of my flipflop-shod foot. It made a real bleeder.

Pella, Some of these questions are addressed in the sections on saddle trees. Unfortunately it as not as simple as widening just one part of the tree. Doing that will change the angles and how everything else is sitting. The bars really need to made for the horse first, last, and always. Anything else that doesn't compromise this can then be done for the rider. The saddle maker has a lot more to do with making the saddle close-contact than the tree maker. As far as getting a tree that fits. There are several schools of thought and a few measuring systems and devices out there. Dennis Laine from Australia has the simplest, repeatable, and least expensive system going.

Steve, The thread guide is what ever looks good to you. I have seen some guys who like to use that heavy 5or 6 cord waxed handthread from TLF or Weaver on card cases. Other guys that use 138 equivalent on a big piece. I kind of hit the middle. I usually handsew the work gear with the heavy thread. If I am handsewing a smaller dressy item, I like 207. some of the little repair jobs are 138. I just beeswax it up and it holds the lock alright. I have tried some of the linens at times, found they were lumpy and not all that consistant. I also groove pretty deep. I have a few different groovers. I like a deeper narrow groove usually. I think the TLF saddlemakers groover is OK. One thing I found it will only plow so deep. Might be alright for some things. To make mine go deeper I carefully dremeled off the sides to narrow it, and rounded off those square corners on the back. Made a huge difference. I have one of the Osborne compass groovers (actually two). The smallest points on those work alright. One I left the other point sharp for centering and grooving circles. The other I dulled, rounded, and flattened to be more like the old grooving compasses to ride an edge better. I have a third style that is a shoe groover (not a channeler). It has a wooden handle, loop type blade like the Osbornes, and adjustable fence. It will plow a pretty good furrow. You will find especially on handsewing the mitered or butted 90 degree corners that a deeper groove and catching plenty of leather in both pieces is more forgiving to do, and more durable in the long run. I am attaching a pic of a style of bag I make that has the butted corners on the top and bottom pieces. I hand sewed them all top and bottom. I have probably done about 150 of these. That is where I figured out to groove deep, smaller thread, and sew with a thinner awl blade. These were one of my most popular award items for several years when I was activley seeking that work. These are a cosmetic bag, but the barrel racers in AZ all thought they won camcorder bags. They called to order them for gifts and friends, asking for cam corder bags. It hit me what else they thought they were.

I agree with everything else here - big stiches and heavy thread. I am going to add one more factor. I do a fair amount of this kind of seam on some bags. If your awl is not a little thinner than maybe normal, you will get these raised puckers. When you go through the leather at an angle it is different than straight through like a strap. You will essentially be undercutting and raising the side of the hole toward the edge, and compresing and lowering the side of the hole away from the edge. If your stitching groove is not deep or thread is big, pulling the thread with enough tension to close the seam will raise and hold these "pucker" up even more. This is a whole different cat then handsewing a flat piece. Groove deeper and use a thin blade. You can either rework the readily available blades, or Bob Douglas makes some dandy blades in regular and slim styles ready to go.

Mike, For the simpler things like card cases, checkbooks, or simple wallet insides, I make mine. Otherwise I use unpunched TLF inserts. That old mission grain whatever-it-is is pretty durable. I bought a sackful of the Chaylor-Finelli inserts last year. I have durability issues. Also I think they are harder to use. The sewing margins are pretty narrow on some. Some of the designs you almost need to sew from the inside to keep from sewing something shut. I have had one tear out. Not sure what I am going to do with the rest. My experience.

Rod and Denise, A guy I took a carving class from also teaches carving privately at his shop. I think he said he charges somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 a day (an average day's take), and expects about 3 full days. He devotes 100% of the time to the student. During this he does not work on any of his own orders. It would be a little different learning to make trees. They would need to use your equipment. Also it is much like a saddle school. In a couple weeks they may pick up some "how-to's", but dang sure are not going to see it all. I think what to charge really depends on what they expect to learn, how long a time period they have to learn it in, and how much previous experience they have. I dodged Denver yesterday and drove up to Sheridan. I spent part of yesterday and today talking to Luke at Sheridan Leather Outfitters. We talked about the real demand for handmakers of trees. Although giving away trade secrets is a bit of a factor, it is probably not a huge factor. I think making trees should probably be on the order of saddlemaking. If they expect a lot of hands-on training they need to pay totally for that time taken away. If they have experience and want to look over your shoulder and discuss things as you do the work, that takes less time away. If they want to work, and pick up on the job training over a longer period, pay accordingly. My thoughts.

Ed, They get leather from all over. I think the archives are public. You only have to join to post and maybe get into the "philosophy section". Try www.thehcc.org. I think the forum and archives are set under the subtopic of The Crispin Colloquy. They are mostly all in Delavan WI this weekend toasting and celebrating the St Crispin's Holiday.

I am starting this thread kind of as a travel planner. If you go to another shop, and learn something or do "market research", it may be deductible too. Feel free to add other places worth the stop. Currently I am in Denver at a go-along deal with my wife at a conference. Yesterday we went up to Brighton Feed and Saddlery. A lot have probably seen their ads in the magazines. Give this place a definite "honey, we are going to Brighton" if you are in the area. Fine folks to talk with. They are not kidding when they say they have 450 saddles. They have the room of factory saddles like everyone else. Also a bunch of McCalls, but that is expected. The new area is pretty cool. Where else do you see new saddles by Platte Valley, Cary Schwarz, William Hape, Pedro Pedrini, and the last saddle that Chester was reported to work on, with his son William? Brain freeze this morning, but also a couple by a pretty handy maker in Sheridan (Dutch sounding last name). The semi trailer out back has the used. Forty of them - Dale Harwood, Kent Frecker, and others. It is like going to museum, but you can sit in 'em. We spent a few hours there. The devil is in the details. They also have a good book section, spurs, bits, and the usual assortment of silver jewelry. I can't have too many books, and she can't have too many earrings.

Ed, That will probably be my next machine if my business continues to trend in the two directions it is going. I am on a boot and shoemakers forum, and those guys use them and talk about them quite a bit. The post beds can be roller foot or walking foot, belt driven or gear driven feed mechanisms, and old or new. I see a need to sew down inside bags with them, and some repair work. Sounds like the Mitsubishi ones are good, and I think it was Lisa Sorrell who posted good experiences with an Artisan. The old ones range from good to wore out scrap. A patch machine may be able to do what I am looking for also. Seems like other than an Adler that handles heavier thread, most of the patchers are light sewers. Patchers are pretty common, but so are the wore out ones.

I sometimes still use Murphy's for the biggest reason that it is what my grandfather said to use. I much don't like paste saddle soap for the original cleaning of most pretty dirty saddles. I use it for a lot of things, but not cleaning saddles. I find the paste even on my hands doesn't lift much, takes some fairly warm water to really rinse very well, and leaves a pasty wax. It gets into nooks and crannies, and is heck to get out for me. If not Murphy's, I like the glycerine soaps. Being in northern California, a lot of guys prefer Bentley's liquid glycerine soap. I have used it, or the bar glycerine with about equal results I guess. Some folks are really touting the Leather Therapy products, but I haven't used them. I rinse a lot and want the saddle to be pretty clean before I go back and condition it. It may take 5 or 6 soapings and rinsings to get it there.

Ed, The stock narrow center foot that came with mine is smooth on the bottom. I have not used the blanket foot. My old buddy gave me another narrow presser foot. It was an Adler foot with the ridge behind the needle guide hole on the bottom. The ridge pushes your stitches down and recesses them deeper into the leather, especially if there was no groove made first. He elongated the hole to make the allowance for the different needle realtionship/foot relationship of the Adler vs 2000. I like the look especially for straps and saddles. I groove deep anyway. It is my favorite foot for that work. The only problem is for doing tight corners like a 90 degree at the corner of a checkbook. When you turn the work, the ridge lays behind the corner and makes an impression.

Ed, I mostly sew with the peasant color, but also need black, brown, or white on occasion. I use the drill to wind bobbins for the most part. On some of the off colors, those bobbins might be used to sew a single strap or repair, and then sit for weeks. I have seen no problems with using them later. I sewed with a brown last night that was probably wound a year ago. They are stored on a pegboard, but not in direct sun. To wind my bobbins with the drill I use the stem out of an old bobbin winder. One of the winders that tension up against the drive belt. Chuck it, pinch the thread for tension, and hit the trigger. A few seconds and I am good to go. I find I can wind them faster and more even on the drill than setting them up and doing them on the machine winder, even if I am sewing at the same time. One of my friends used to wind bobbins off his top spool, after thread came out of the lube pot. I tried it, but didn't see a difference if the bobbin thread was lubed or not. Doesn't have to pass through and around as many things as a top thread. Some of the guys who have used more machines than me may have some insight on doing that. I do use the lube pot on top thread, even with prelubed thread. It was explained to me that the lube helps to cool the needle and prevents it from sticking to the needle and not looping underneath, resulting in skipped stitches. Those needles can get pretty hot, and I did notice a difference running the top thread through the lube pot. Anybody got any idea of the shelf life of thread? I know storage conditions and uv exposure probably play a big factor.

Clicker dies, either with a shop press or clicker, or made with a handle for small circles. My wife makes coasters, and handcutting could reliably get about 75% to be round looking. With a $35 die she gets them all round in less time. For my big circles like a rope can or rope bag, I got the biggest divider that Osborne lists (12"?) and use that to mark, I then cut with a round knife.

Denise and Rod, Thanks for the cantle pics. That clarifies things even more. I also have say a great big THANK YOU to both you and Rod, and also Dennis Lane and Blake. What I thought I knew about saddle trees 6 months ago is not even a blip on the radar screen to what I know now. My sincere thanks to all who have contributed questions, comments, and knowledge. It is appreciated.