bruce johnson

Smokin P, As Kate said, some die makers go off an electronically transmitted image with no problems. I have bought dies and referred people to Texas Custom Dies. Everyone has been happy. Some die makers will only accept a shape for the die in the form of a stiff cardboard piece, and build the die to that exactly. I have also bought off-the-rack dies for spur straps, latigo carriers, and cinch carriers from Big Sky Tool and Die. They have worked out well for me also. Big Sky has a lot of different standard shapes for breast collars, chap yokes and shields, spur straps, headstalls, etc. My catalog is not current, but spur straps dies a couple years ago were from $70-100 for the strap and buckle piece as a set. Some sell a 2 piece set, and you turn the leather over for the correponding right and left on the strap side. Some have a 3 piece set with a dedicated right and left. The latigo and cinch carriers were $35 each. For pricing on custom dies everyone is a bit different. Some price by the inch of rule. I had one quote that was less per inch, but then had a fee for each bend. There are additional charges for hole punchers, slot punchers, etc within the die. One thing a die maker told me was to specify how thick the leather is you are cutting. It makes a difference high up some makers weld the cross bracing. Most leather dies are made from 1-1/4" rule, but there are some shorter ones out there.

Smokin P, I would not change a thing about my setup. Lower down in this section there is a topic called "manual mini clicker". It shows my shop press setup, and also the press forms I use that could not be done the same with a traditional clicker set up. Originally I was going to have a benchtop press made, with a flat plat on top. Didn't work out and I am glad it didn't now. I need more free space on the bench than on the floor. The floor model is also capable of deeper depths that the bench top. Also I can really use it as a shop press when needed. The price difference between a 20 ton jack and smaller is really pretty narrow. A friend from another list has broken smaller jacks, enough reason for me. I definitely want the jack on top, and a ram for my press forms. I use 1" thick cold roll steel plates, and poly cutting board over the bottom plate to protect the cutting edge when it comes through. Personally I have no reason for it to be portable. Any of the good benchtop clickers are over 100#.

Ed, I used to use that hole to set rivets that were too long. Just lay the setter on its side and whack away. I had a mechanic/machinist laugh hysterically at me several years ago. The hole is to hang up the setter on a pegboard or nail on the wall. That is why the hole is bigger according to him. Now THAT makes sense to me.

Just saw this thread, I set quite a lot of copper rivets. Someone mentioned the river head domer. Shameless plug, I am in not way afilliated, etc. Bob Douglas makes a three piece set for each of the three common sizes. One sets the burr, one peens the shank after it is cut to length, and the third domes the head. There are a few things I would not do without, and my wife says the setters are one of 'em. My wife will tell other makers or look at something in a shop and comment that they should get a set from Bob. Some guys have said that the domer on Bob's will sometimes overlap a #9 head (I think it is sold as an 8/9?). I haven't had that problem with any of my #9s from a few different sources. The shanks on Bob's setter/peener/domer have one, two, and three grooves, so you can tell which order to pick them up if they are all laying together on the bench. You can order them from Bob, or Vandy sells them at Sheridan Leather Outfitters. One thing I would differ on from the tutorial. If someone used my hoofnippers to cut rivets, I would be a bit upset. I used to use endcut nippers with longer handles. I started using compound action end nippers last year after I dislocated the thumb. Quite the deal, and now just bought a really cool old pair in an antique emporium ($5, it pays to look in those barrels) that are neater looking, bigger, and even easier.

Alan, Different companies use to have different 5 year guarantees also. Some give a full 100% guarantee the full 5 years. Others prorate it out - 80% after 1 year. 70% after 2 years, etc. The saddlemaker/customer is out the time and dollars to rebuild. Has the saddlemaker given him THEIR warranty. How long do they guarantee the work they do? The bottom line is that it is almost always economically better to toss a 5 year old saddle with a broken low end tree on a price point saddle, than to go through the warranty hassle. Unless the saddle has been in a wreck (in which case the tree guarantee might not even apply), the tree better outlast the leather and woolskin the saddlemaker chose. It sounds like he is comparing a $125 tree to a $175 tree. I really think the maker must be working pretty close to the bone to offer the customer the choice of tree maker. Sounds like they are shifting some responsibilty onto a guy who really isn't qualified to judge which tree is better based on anything but a warranty. Having him set the two trees on his horses to compare fit would be more productive than checking warranties. My thoughts.

A pal was cruising youtube today and spotted me. I took a look, and it sure enough is me. A bit about one one of my passions, and my little corner of the world. The link is www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOVciixBZ4k. I am not sure how to get this light up and directly link, but Johanna can give me a lesson on it later.

Al, Great topic and questions. I figure this could almost be the "never-ending" story. First off, you have to go in with a budget in mind and a time-frame. Most makers have a base price, and charge for add-ons. Every maker prices a bit differently, and some things one guy includes in the base price, the next guy considers an add-on. Before we get into the mechanics of the saddle some generalities. What do you do with your horses? How often? How long at a time? What did you like/not like about the seats (the way they sat) of previous saddles you rode? Do you sit back against the cantle or centered? How big are you? Are you the only one that will ride this saddle? Then it kind of starts a part at a time. Tree type. What you do somewhat influences what tree style you need, but then personal preference takes over. Swells vs. slickfork, horn type and size, seat or thigh length, cantle height, style and angle. Your horses will determine the bar spread, angles, and pattern. The tree is a whole topic by itself. Some guys will tout an all-leather ground seat vs. a strainer seat. I believe that a bad or good seat good be made with either one. Most makers prefer one technique or another. A lot of the factory saddles have fiberglass strainers and clicked out ground work to be consistant. That is why factory saddles are either consistantly bad or good. Stirrup leather widths - do you want 2-1/2 or 3"? Buckle types? Length, this is custom, you don't need 5" of length below the stirrup pin. Twist or flat? Rigging type and position. Another whole topic unto itself. Style of riding, intended purpose, type of horses, what do you like - rings vs. drop plate, stirrup swing needed/wanted, etc. Strings or not, drilled or not, conchos - metal or leather. Seat - padded, slick, inlay, or patch. Materials? Cheyenne roll or straight binding? After all of this we get into the aesthetics. Roughout or smooth out. Tooling, stamping, and the amount/detail all factor in. Skirts - Square, round, rounded, butterfly, cutouts for riggings... Stirrups - Some guys figure cast aluminum or galvanized bound as the base. Others figure in Monels. Leather covered, and tooled to match?? Lined, treads? Little stuff - cinch included? latigos? hobble carriers? small dees under a concho to buckle skid boots to? Rope strap and style? Look at a bunch of catalogs, websites, and talk to people who have bought one before. Get referrals from satisfied customers, ride their saddles, talk to a lot of people. There are very few standards in the saddle business, so you just have to do homework.

Randy, Last year at Sheridan, this was a pretty common thread throughout the week. Some guys are making light-weight saddles for just what you are describing. Pretty much the common thing was to cut an ounce or two here and there, it adds up, and the pounds take care of themselves. Don't try to do it all in one area. A few of the common things - lighter weight leather in appropriate areas. plastic stirrups with light treads (or the foam treads). Construction - smaller skirts, Mother Hubbards with skirt riggings even better. Smaller and narrower fender patterns. Narrow stirrup leathers - Blevins or a clone are made in 2". Some guys are using 1-3/4 or even 1-1/2 with other buckles. Thinner leather over the swells, cantle backs, etc - any minimal wear area for the intended use. Some guys are using some synthetic materials like Kevlar and Biothane for reinforcements. Some guys even get pretty sparing with the oil to keep them under weight. Not lining things you normally might. Leaving off the back cinch and billets unless they really want them, then that weight gain is on them. I will let the tree folks comment on what can be done on their end. One factor to consider is that if the bars are too thin, they may not be able to have the shape on the bottom to fit. If they do, it may require more groundseat buildup to get a decent seat, which negates the thinner bars. Shortening bar length much to cut weight may also get into saddle fitting issues as well. If the saddle is not a roper, a thinner fork could be used. Mike Craw might remember the guy's name who was with there from FL last year (the tall guy, Mike). I met him at Wickenburg again this spring. He makes a barrel saddle that is light. Good guy to talk to. Some of these guys making the better endurance saddles might have some insight too. Steve Gonzales (Bend, OR ?) has kind of a rep for light saddles.

Are one way snaps the same as Lift-The-Dot snaps? If so, Ohio Travel Bag has them I think. However, minimum orders apply, probably need a resale number, etc. About the only time I have needed them have been for repair work, and I only needed a few at a time. My local tent and awning company stocks them, and will sell them by the piece. I have also found the them to be a good source for other hardware I don't want to deal with in quantity. They carry all kinds of zipper tape and hardware, click-lock plastic buckles and slides, and webbing. Grommets and setters in all sizes. Tent and awning shops are an often overlooked supply resource. They also have a bunch of different cordura too.

Harvey, Looks nice, nice job, good use of color, he should be happy. Actually Clay, it was not real simple for the flags. Harvey sent me the line drawings for an opinion on which side to bevel them to make them match the pics. I did it about 3 ways that "looked" right, and then I still wasn't sure. I finally took my smaller flag and laid it out on my desk to put the folds in it. It ended up to not be any of the 3 ways I thought it was when looking at the line drawings.

Kate, Tim is a contributor on another forum I am on. That forum is mainly geared toward boot and shoemakers. It is called the honorable cordwainers colloquy (or some sort of close spelling). The web address is www.thehcc.org. You might recognise some familiar names. They are a pretty traditional group for the most part. They discuss tradtional methods vs. modern or factory techniques, machinery, tools, tips and tricks, and aesthetics. Probably where I get the most out of the postings are the discussions of philosophy of business or personal choices in business. On some of the subforum topics you have to be registered to post or view. They likewise have video lessons.

Pella, Regarding the chrome tan vs. veg-tan sheepskins. I see a few that are relined with chrome tan, and some that come from SE Asia that are new with chrome tan. It just doesn't seem to hold up. I have had guys tell me everything from chrome tanned wool is less cushioning, falls out easier, all the way to less tensile strength in the leather than veg-tan. If you are redoing saddles, go with what was original. As far as replacing with synthetics. If you are restoring for any antique, it NEEDS to be real sheepskin. Basically the value is destroyed, or at least seriously reduced, by replacing with synthetic fleece. I have a pretty cute little Porter that has synthetic fleece. That is the reason I got really inexpensively at an antique store. I was able to show them what their buddy did to reduce the value of their saddle by at least half. I used the example of reupholstering an 18th century piece of furniture with naugahyde. They could understand that. They were thinking "High Noon" sale price, I was thinking Saturday night horse and tack auction price. The big reason I don't like to reline them is two-fold. First it can be dicey on some of these old skirts to remove the sheepskin and not have the stitchline fall-off/tear-off. The other is that new sheepskin doesn't have the same "look of being used" as the rest of the saddle. I used to use Lazy M shearlings, which are bit more to the "orange" shade than most other shearlings. I now use LM shearlings from Siegels which are more of a traditional golden color. I also don't run another stitch line on reline restorations, like some guys will do on a reline for a working saddle. I pick the stitches and use the original holes on restorations, and will on relines if they want to pay for it. It is one thing to run a new line on a Circle Y or Dale Martin, another thing to "add" something to a Visalia or old relic. Some guys are pretty particular that all sewing has to be done with linen thread as originally done. If it is a museum piece, I agree. Most of my restorations are a family heirloom. I use poly thread in the "deer/peasant/golden wax" color. It doesn't look white, but does tend to look white on pics. I recently (last night) found a way to "age" the look of new sewing. I took some diluted Eco-Flo Hi-Liter in a brown color (half and half dilution with water) and rubbed on the stitching of something else. It "antiqued" the thread. I am going to let this sit for a while before trying it on a saddle, just to make sure it stays. Sure looks "used" though.

Dave, Isn't the Mach I a needle feed and the 3000 has a walking foot? Actually the advantages/disadvantages of the different feed systems might make a good topic. Especially coming from someone with 30 years in the business. At one time I suggested this to a supplier for a LCSJ article. Here we can be a little more wide open.

CowboyGear, Any chance you could post some pictures of the saddle? Especially the CTA logo and maker's stamp. I find it interesting that a lot of old saddles are described as "a higher quality made saddle". Yes they probably were, they had to be. These saddlers were all competing with each other on quality and let price take care of itself, and had a reasonably educated customer base. If they weren't decent quality either 1) they fell apart and didn't survive until now or 2) never sold enough to be a factor. The big shops like Visalia, Hamleys. Porters, etc. were putting out a quality product, and the individual maker had that standard to look up to. Now it is generally the other way around. Greg, Any idea when the horns starting either being cut off or never put on the contest saddles? I have seen a few that had brass horns cut off. The stump was engraved on one. It looked like it was a medallion inlayed, but a tear at the edge showed a leg of the horn. I just looked at my rulebook, and there is no mention I can find of not having a horn being a requirement. Might be pretty cool to see a guy wear woolies and ride a horned saddle, they say everything comes back around. I have also seen some of the horns off older saddles (not contest saddles) that were hollowed out in the base and others that were solid. Any idea on what foundaries were casting these and where they were? One of those things I have never seen mentioned to any extent - the unsung horn makers.

Steve, Sorry you are off the river, glad you are back with us more. I have been looking at the rope bag all day. How does the closure on the pocket work?? It is probably pretty simple, but I am too sometimes. My guess is that the long tail doesn't pull all the way out, and you close it by pulling the tail? Am I close?

Alright, Monkey got us going with the steak-quest. So as to not hijack that thread, I noticed the south end of my north facing Ford tonight. There on the left is Beef, It's What's For Dinner. But, what do these producers do for us? And what should we as leather folk be thinking? Beef, It's What's For Dinner - and each steer consumed is two sides of leather. Got Milk? - and when those cows are done, they yield big spready hides with few brands Eat American Lamb - we could use the woolskins Try Goat (cabrito) - It really is pretty good, and the hide makes a dandy lining. Pork, The Other White Meat - Makes a pretty good leather too. Besides the real white meat is chicken - no flavor and nobody tans chicken hides except on the grill. Ostrich, The Low Cholesterol Alternative - Ok, this meat is not very good, but the hides are really cool. The Cordovan people have fallen behind. I haven't seen any ad campaign to eat more horse butts.

Johanna, I came up with a very serious issue. I am sure the earth may stop spinning at any time, and life as we know it may cease to exist. I use IE, not sure of what version. Since the update, I am finding that I need to log in at each visit. Apparently with the update, it logs me out when I click off to go hunt the latest ebay bargain. I did not have this happen before the fix, I was continually logged in and greeted lke Norm in Cheers every visit. Actually it is not that big a deal, but something I did notice. Just to be safe though, I will now wear my tinfoil hat and vest to protect me from any stray deathrays that may emanate from the new board.

OK, Monkeyman, I'll bite. We could consider beef to be a by-product of the leather industry. Best steak ever - filet mignon at the Steakhouse at Binion's "Horseshoe Club" in Las Vegas. You could eat it with a straw. (take the elevater to the top, not the restaurant in the basement). Have to have to have the lobster bisque too. Crown and water used to be a buck, and you need a water back too. They raised those prices after Benny died, however, but still a bargain. Top it off with the creme brulee. Pretty much should be on the repeatable list too. If your folks are like mine, they have sticker shock looking at the posted menu and won't get on the elevater. Drag 'em on kicking and screaming, you will have to offer to pick up the check. Best beef for the buck - Sorry Monkey, can't have just one, I have traveled too much I guess. In no particular order.... 1) also in Las Vegas, and a bit "hidden" too. The Prime Rib Loft up the steps at The Orleans. Hid out, great bone-in prime rib and steaks, a baked potato that is a meal, and the house salad dressing is awesome. Have been there several times and always a good meal. Your folks will want to pick up the check here. Especially if you paid at Binion's the night before. 2) Another also-ran in the best-for-the-buck is Rod's Steakhouse in Williams AZ. This is a place you could tell your parents you ate, and it hasn't changed since they went to the Grand Canyon 40 years ago. Even the menus are the same die-cut fatsteer shape. 3) Harris Ranch - Coalinga CA. Good steaks, great spinach salad, and if the wind is from the north, you can faintly smell the feedlot your meal came from. If you don't stop here, your next meal choice is Flying J buffet two hours south (and it ain't on the list!), there's nothing between here and there. 4) Star - Elko, NV. One of the better New Yorks I have eaten. Be aware it is Basque style - meaning they just keep bringing you salad, soup, bread, side dishes, etc. Pace yourself the first-time or you will be bagging the steak. Why every Basque doesn't weigh 400# is beyond me. Maybe they only eat once every other day. A pretty repeatable steak at home. Take a tri-tip roast (almost unheard of in the midwest/east by that name - but it is a California staple) and cut it crossgrain into 1-1/2" steaks. The little pointy end, same deal, but cut it into cubes. Medium-hot grill and turn 90 degrees to get the cross-hatched grill marks half way through each side. I season mine with Zatarain's Creole spice mix near the end - one side, let sit a minute ,flip and season the other side. If you cook it over central coast red oak, even better. However I have been reduced to cooking with gas for a while now. Oh, the little pointy end cubes are for quality control testing while grilling. You can also grill the whole roast, little less fire, more time, and season the same. There are secret family marinades too. I had a portugese wine/brown sugar marinated one once that was pretty killer. Slice thinly and serve with fresh salsa as a condiment.

I am not trying to be short, but what you are looking for really is going to be tough. You want quality and low price in a saddle tree. The last tree I got from Sonny Felkins was $325 and took about 5 months to get. The handmakers are going to be higher. So is the quality. The factories are "you get what you pay for". Bowden is probably the most consistant, and will take back a tree that is not right. Others are Baties, Black Mesa, Hadlock&Fox has been bought and moved to Del Rio, might try OxBow in Oklahoma. There are trees from Mexico on ebay in the "store" section for $100. Most all of these makers advertise in ShopTalk, and I would strongly advise subscribing to it. Not really much of a "how-to" magazine like the LCSJ, but has a lot of supplier advertising. They produce a supplier's directory every year called "The Big Book". I think their website is www.proleptic.net, and they might even have the Big Book on-line with the search function. You are trying to sell a really tough market. If these customers can't afford a $1500 saddle, which is pretty bargain basement compared to pricing on the Dale Martins and other production saddles right now, you are having to undercut materials or labor to compete. What is your price target? Are your customers comparing you with the $500 "buy it now's" on ebay? Figure the costs on 3 sides of leather (you will use 3 early on), a good woolskin, stirrups, good hardware, the cost of machinery to make one (you will ony sew one by hand and realize you can't compete with anyone on price), and then add it up. That tree cost is pretty inconsequential in the whole list of materials, and quality is important in every part of a saddle.

Greg, The servo motor on my 1245 has the rheostat dial to adjust speed control. I am pretty sure I can get away without the speed reducer and have just as much control. My wife uses the 1245 some, and is not intimidated by it like the 2000. She is a flatbed user from homesewing, and just is more at ease. I originally got my first servo motor for the Adler 205, and it was a bigger motor than the one on the 1245. It didn't have a rheostat on it, but gave me much more range of slow speed control than the clutch motor I replaced, and also had about the same high end for straight runs. When I ordered the 2000, I got the servo motor and it also doesn't have the rheostat. I am not sure if the larger motors don't have the rheostat, or just the earlier larger servos Ferdco stocked a couple years ago. I like the control and speed I have right now on the 2000 with the speed reducer. The new machine I have coming is a 2000 as well, second hand. I haven't ordered the motor yet, waiting to have the machine in hand first. I will talk to Ron when I get it, and ask about a rheostat on the larger motors. If there isn't one, I will scab the speedreducer off the 1245, or see if someone has one in the "boneyard". Ed, I am not concerned about the lack of punching power with the servo motor. I haven't checked torques, but personal observations have borne this out. When I replaced the clutch motor on the Adler with servo I had to "relearn". If I reached up out of habit to the handwheel to help it around a corner stitching slow (as I had to do with the clutch motor at times for control) the servo motor would throw my hand off. Also if I have the speed dialed up on the 1245 and handwheel around a point, I can jerk my wrist if I step on the pedal a little too hard. Some mechanics say that the servos have a steady punch power slow or fast, and don't rely on momentum like clutch motors. Don't know.

Pat, I am a big fan of Melanie, Arnold has really treated me right. He has a great shop, and keeps the cleanest warehouse I have ever seen. Good source of advice too. I have a 1245 (Ferdco's version) with a speed reducer and the servo motor. On slowest speed on the dial, it is a - g - o - n - i - z - i -n - g - l - y slow. Something like maybe 1 stitch per 5 seconds. I think this machine and motor combo could easily be run and controlled like Greg said with just the servo motor and no speed reducer. It will be set up soon that way for me. I have another machine being shipped now that had a clutch motor and no speed reducer. I am going to take the speed reducer off the 1245 and use it on the second machine. I will just have to get a new servo motor for the new machine that way.

Clay, Has been over 100 for about 12 days here. Enough temp swing to keep the cattle stressed. The last chronic died this morning, just in time for the cooler weather. Everything else seems healthy, but it makes 4 in the bonepile in 10 days. If I was just a rawhider..... I am doing more cow work with the tractor seems like. Now if the prevailing breezes just stay away from a direct line to the house, we are set.

One other factor to throw out. Seems like the old saddles I have got to sit in in some of the museums and where ever (Visalia, Porters, Hamley, Keystons. etc) all sat "narrower" than later saddles. Was there an evolution from narrower bars, an effect of groundseat build-up, or what other factors contributed? An effect from changing bar angles and wider horses? The effect that these makers just plain took the time and had the skilled workers to put in a better seat?

Rod, I think in many cases it is a marketing ploy. Also I think "close contact" means different things to different people. Some of it goes back to the day of the big skirted show saddles, and heavy plugged skirts. Add a full stirrup leather, lined fenders, and thick pad and you do have to make an effort to hit the horse. I also think it is a response to the way ground seats are/were put in a lot of production saddles. They use a fiberglass strainer that is exactly the same each time. They use clicked out and lightly skived buildups and each seat is the same as the next. On a spready tree and leaving the buildups full to the bottom of the bars just makes a wider seat. You used to see a lot of western pleasure riders with their feet braced out, and they are sitting pretty straight and shoulders back. Made for a nice picture, but getting a leg on the horse was pretty tough. When they tried to ride that same saddle/way for a reining horse - didn't work. They needed something narrower and less bulky under and in front of the leg. To a lot of cutter/cowhorse people, close contact may mean sitting closer to the horse now. Usually these saddles may have the seat right on the strainer. Thin flexible fenders, half leathers, and a narrower seat from a narrower bar pattern, thinner bars, and minimal groundwork down the bars. I wish I had one of those old Billy Cook cutters from the early 80s to dissect. They were like riding a barrel. I am not sure if the bars were flatter and wider, or if it was a ground seat issue, You were beating your backside, and splitting your hips with a hard stop. Some of this probably has to do with the evolution of the horse and changing bar patterns. We have gone from the flatter-backed old-style horses to the narrower ones. Seems like the majority of the Doc Bar influenced horses are narrower than the old Hollywold Gold and Poco Bueno breeding. Regarding the narrower bars. One thing I found. I ordered a couple trees from a supplier. Both Wades, one was a for a woman. At least some of their trees go into a Wade targeted for women, and this was the tree I got. The overall difference in wdth measured straight down from the top was about 1/2" narrower. Each bar was 1/2" narrower measured across the narrowest point, but the angle minimized the effect. Is that 1/2" narrower measurement significant enough to be noticeable? Don't know. I also am not sure about how thin is too thin. Probably not a factor until you break one. Like Blake responded on the cutting tree pics I posted, some of these break in the stirrup slot area, Probably more from stress of the bridging and unsupported weight of the stirrup leathers than scored rawhide. I am pretty sure that thin bars and throwing a 1" pad on with a top blanket is self-defeating. My thoughts would be thicker bars that really fit and a thinner pad would give a better result.

Vandy and Luke, Welcome to this forum. For those who have not been in the shop or dealt with Sheridan Leather Outfitters, they are one of the good suppliers out there. They sponsor a social get-together/BBQ during the Sheridan leather show. They stock a lot of exotic leathers, and have a large line of leather conditioners and hard to find things like SS nails in several varieties. They have a full line of saddle hardware and buckles. Tools by Barry King, J Cook, and a good guy named Bob Douglas. Good people to deal with.