RemingtonSteel

Yet another compelling reason to alway transport with head taken off the table and stored securely. I am glad it did not damage your head, but it sounds like the table took a beating.

Sorry, I guess I was having a hard time explaining myself last night... it was late and I may not have been thinking as clearly as I normally do. First, I moisten the leather along the fold area on the opposite side of the leather that the glue is being applied, to help minimize cracking or wrinkling. Then I glue the lining to the outer layer by curving the outer layer and slowly working the liner into the curve of the outer layer. Once glued, I then sew the entire piece except for the main seam. I then glue in the welt and sew the main seam. There are various miscellaneous steps in between these, but I hope this helps to clarify my overall stitching process a little bit better. If you haven't check out Jim Simmon's tutorial (in pdf format) in the Holster forum, it is worth the read: One concern of this method is that it really pre-forms the holster into a nice curve and I am wondering how easy or difficult it will be to sew on a machine, but I am sure I will figure it out real soon.

I do glue the lining first, I was just summarizing the stitching steps to better understand how using a machine will differ from how I have been hand stitching. I don’t wet form, I form the shape during gluing by using a technique that I learned from Jim Simmons by following one of his tutorials. The rigs I am making are for Cowboy Action Shooting, so there needs to be enough retention to hold the gun through a large range of movement, yet still be easy to draw. I accomplish this by sandwiching a 1 inch wide strip of curved Kydex between the two layers of the holster. This gives good gun retention, yet keeps the holster open when the gun is removed making it easy/fast to re-holster.

Wizcrafts, thank you, lots of information to digest, but it mostly makes sense to me, except for this. When you stretch out a stitch's length, are you not decreasing the number of stitches per inch? If correct shouldn’t the above be no more than 5 to the inch, or should I take that to read, anything less than 5 doesn’t look good? The seller has the original dealer sewn sample of several layers of leather at 3/4 inch that came with the machine when it was new. I’m not sure he knows what thread or needle size that was used as it was around 20 years ago and this was his father’s machine. So my takeaway on this based on the holster type that I am making, I should do the following: Sew the lining to the holster leather (approx 1/4 inch) using 207 or 277 thread with appropriate needle size. Sew the two sides of the holster together with the welt in between (approx 3/4 inch) using 346 thread and size 26 or 27 needle. Keep stitch length between the two consistent. Won’t using different size threads look a little off? With hand stitching, I always used the same size thread for.the entire holster and gun belt. I guess with certain projects like this you just get used to changing needle and thread sizes.

Some of you may be aware that I am hopefully acquiring a Ferdco Pro 2000 this weekend, and if you haven't figured it out, I am new to sewing leather with a machine. So for the last several days I have been cramming in as much information as I can, about what I think I need to know about this topic. One of the more confusing sub-topics is needle type as well as needle and thread size selection, but I think I have a pretty good understanding right now, with one point of confusion. Wizcrafts states in the "Needles and Threads" pinned thread, and I believe this to be a sound statement. Yet on Ferdco's website, I found some information on thread and needle sizing as well as in a pdf compiled by gtwister09 (great document by the way) in the "794 Machine Needles" pinned thread. They recommend for Ferdco (and some other machines) one thread size for the top, and a one thread size down from that for the bottom, i.e. #25 needle, top thread #277, bottom thread #207. So why do some manufacturers recommend this setup, while other suggest using the same size top and bottom as Wizcrafts mentions. I have my suspicions on why this may be, but does anyone for know for certain why this is? What would the potential drawbacks be for me to run the same size thread top and bottom on the Pro 2000? Any recommendations on thread type (polyester vs nylon, vs ...) and thread size for western holsters mostly consisting of 1/4" thick leather with welt upto a 3/4"? (From my research I am guessing polyester #277) Is it generally a good practice to go down one size on the needle, over the recommended size to keep the holes in the leather smaller and would I be able to penetrate 3/4" of veg tan if I did?

I did ask the seller about other accessories and he said that it did have additional feet and some other items, but he was not able to verify what they all were at the time. I am hoping one of them is a roller edge guide as well. Correct, there is what looks to be a "Operations & Parts" manual behind the head as well as other documentation below the table top in a red folder. I don't want to get my hope up too high, but I have to admit that I feel like a kid the night before Christmas and it is just not going to come soon enough. Yes very excited about the 16" arm. I was only going to be able to afford a 9" arm if I purchased new. 3 steps from garage to first floor. I used to build house, so I have never been adverse to lifting heavy objects. Now that I am getting just a little bit older, maybe a hand truck or furniture dolly is in order. On the floor in the back seat all the way! If the arm reach is stated at 16 1/2 inches, I would have to imagine that that the overall length would be about 24 inches. What about this idea: I get a heavy duty storage container, and set the head in the container on it base with some support under the arm to keep it from tipping forward. Then pack heavy duty bubble wrap (or something similar) between the container and the front side and between the container and the back side of the head... kind of sandwich it in? May be overthinking this, but I don't want to turn a good deal into a bad deal by have to replace parts that were damaged in transport. Also have several moving blankets to use as well. Definitely! Going from hand stitching to machine stitching... now I just have to figure out what thread type to use, what thread size to use, what needle type to use, what needle size to use, and myriad of other new factors that will come into play with machine stitching. Oh and did I mention I have to learning how to use the machine. Fortunately, I am good with computers, machinery, and tools and have this wonderful site to reference. FYI, most of my hand stitching is done with 1.0 mm Ritza Tiger thread and John James harness needles on a hundred plus year old stitching horse I found at an antique store.

dikman, great suggestion on removing the motor as well. Really the more I remove, the easier it will be to move by myself when I get home. Yes, I'm hoping it looks as good in person as it does in the picture, and that it runs well. If it does I will be very pleased with the purchase. I am keeping my finger crossed until Saturday. On another note, I am amazed when comparing the above picture to a picture of the Cowboy CB4500, just how identical they both look. You could almost swap badges and most people wouldn't know the difference. I am wondering if all parts, certain parts, or no parts are interchangeable between most of the 441 clones?

AA3JW, I was thinking that would be the best approach, but it never hurts to ask. I guess I better bring some open end wrenches and a socket set just to be safe, as well as some other misc. tools. Taking pictures is always a good idea, thanks for the reminder. Not thrilled with the table it comes with as it may not fit in my shop where I want it to go, so I am looking into the cost of an adjustable height stand like the ones that come with Cobra class 4 and Cowboy CB 4500. Anyone have any leads on where to get them? I reached out to Bob Kovar to ask if he sells them, but will have to wait until tomorrow for a response.

Any suggestions on the best way to transport a sewing machine of this type to prevent damage? I have a pickup truck, should I strap the whole unit standing up to the front of the bed behind the cab, or should I detach the head from the table, and transport the head in the cab and the table standing or lying in the back, or any other method?

JJN, I think I needed to also expand my search radius. When I did that, it came up in the listing. But thanks for the other tips as they will be helpful for future searches. Made the offer, now I just need to wait on the seller to get back to me on whether or not he accepts it. UPDATE: He just got back to me and accepted the offer. I think it is fair for both parties involved.

JJN, I think I may do just that. The machine looks clean and well taken care of, although that is no indication of performance or disrepair. The table would not be my first choice, but that can always be upgraded down the road as well. Not sure how you found this, because I did a search just yesterday on Sacramento Craigslist for both a Leather sewing machine and Industrial sewing machine, and this did not come up in the list, nor does it come up if I do a search today. Regardless, I appreciate you pointing me in that direction. It is worth pursuing.

JREESER1, I have already contacted Steve, and his recommendation is: I suggest the COBRA Class 4S over the Class 3 because some gun belts are very large and bulky and you will need that extra space. All of my customers that make holsters use the Class 4. I really appreciated his feedback, and I think the reasoning behind his statement is sound. The problem that I have is, right now this is a hobby for me, and i am having a hard enough time justifying spending $2600 for a class 3, so getting a class 4 at this time is a tough nut for me to swallow... If this was a business, that would be a different story. So I have to admit that getting a used Ferdco Pro 2000 with a 16" arm for around $2,000 (which would include upgrading to a servo motor and speed reducer) or something similar may be the best option for me. I appreciate everyone's feedback, and I hope it keeps coming. I think for most leather workers, hobbyist or business, figuring out what sewing machine to get, may be the hardest decision to make. So this thread, however improperly titled it may be, is extremely useful in helping me gather the facts that I need to make a sound decision.

JLSleather, I think you may have taken what I said wrong, as no one convinced me of anything. I have no first hand knowledge of any leather sewing machine, to say that one is better than another. I based my statement on a couple of simple facts. First, if I am not mistaken, Cobra has been around longer than Cowboy, and that Steve at Leather Machine Co. has excellent reviews here (not that those selling Cowboy machines don't.) Secondly, he is located in CA, which is where I live and shipping may be less (never got far enough with him to ask.) What I am convinced of is that I probably wouldn't go wrong with either a Cobra or a Cowboy, as both appear to be fine sewing machines and are equally loved by members here on this site. The one thing I do know is that either machine has to beat sewing leather gun belts by hand... ouch. Who knows, I may just end up getting the Ferdco Pro 2000. I apologize if I came across as implying that the Cobra was better than the Cowboy, as that was not my intent.

I just got a reply from the seller. He said it was his dad's who purchased it new about 20 years ago and that it was running smoothly when last used a year ago. I asked about the motor type clutch or servo, this is his reply: "I don't know about the servo/clutch. If it is an indicator, a motor runs when it's powered on and not sewing". I don't know enough about them but my assumption based on his description would be a clutch motor. Also from what I have read, they are more difficult to operate. Anyone know if my assumption is correct? Any idea of what it would cost to replace the motor with a servo motor and speed reducer if I am correct? Answered my own question about the cost. Approx. $310 plus shipping for a servo motor and a speed reducer based on Leather Machine Co's pricing.

@nylonRigging Thanks, I hadn't looked at Artisans for over a year, and have just about forgotten about them. I didn't realize that they were our of the SF/Bay Area, That would save about $300 in shipping charges if I could pick it up. Although I could pick up a Cobra in L.A., with today's California gas prices, it would cost me about that much to drive down and back not to mention 12+ hours of driving. The 12" cylinder arm is a definite plus over the Cobra class 3 or Cowboy CB3500's 9" cylinder arms for about the same price. I will look into them more. My biggest concern with the Artisan is the closeups of sample stitched work on their website. It looks like the feet are leaving marks on the front surface of the leather, which makes me wonder what the back (feed dog side) looks like. Check out the saddle tan and medium brown sample close ups https://www.artisansew.com/leatherstitchingmachine.html. @JJN Thanks for the link. As this is my first machine, I have thought a great deal about getting a used one in good condition, but my searches have never turn up anything locally that I can go look at and take for a test drive. Although Anderson is a little bit of a drive (about 2 1/2 hours each way) , i did reach out to the seller, asking for more information about the machine. Based on the look of the machine and the stand, it looks to be a slightly older model. it does have the additional advantage of having what looks like a 16" cylinder arm as well as what I am guessing to be a wax pot. Biggest concern with buying used would be who do I turn to for repairs if any are needed, or support in learning how to use the machine? Both are very good options for getting a leather stitching machine at a reasonable cost.

As little as two years ago, there was a significant lower price incentive for buying Cowboy sewing machines over comparable model Cobra sewing machines. Now that the price of Cowboy sewing machines have jumped up, they are virtually the same price as their comparable Cobra model sewing machines. So my question is: Is there any benefit of buying a Cowboy sewing machine over a Cobra sewing machine? Example Cowboy CB3500 ($2,595 at time of writing) vs Cobra Class 3 ($2,635 at time of writing). To me, for $40 more, why not go with the Cobra. I'd love to know thoughts either way.

I was also excited to learn that Tandy is now carrying the Cobra line of sewing machines, as I was hoping to get my business discount, and/or at the very least, pick one up at the store so I would not have to pay shipping. But I can confirm what Keplerts posted above, you get neither. As a matter of fact, in doing a comparison (based on Tandy's brochure, and https://leathermachineco.com/ website), it appears you get more accessories buying direct. So the question is, "Why would anyone want to buy a Cobra machine from Tandy?") One would think that with the volume of new Cobra customers that Tandy could bring to the table, they would get some kind of incentive to pass along to their customers, that would make their customer want to buy from Tandy. I see none. The only benefit is that you can demo a machine at Tandy, if you are lucky enough to live near one of the 12 Tandy locations that have floor demo models. The list of stores can be found here: https://www.tandyleather.com/en/tandypro-cobra-machines.html. I know that Tandy once again is having some financial difficulties and have been making changes the last year or so to keep existing and attract new customers. This move though does nothing to help with their problem. As a business customer, I am not going to go to my Tandy store and demo a Cobra machine, and then walk out with some supplies as an afterthought. Quite the contrary, next time I need to go to Tandy for supplies, I will take a some extra time to demo the machine, so no added profit for Tandy by having floor models to demo. Having a minimum of one of the following criteria met, would be enough incentive for me to buy a Cobra machine from Tandy. Honoring a business discount even if it is not the full discount but at the very least 5%. Offering more included accessories than you would get by buying direct, or better yet, a Tandy exclusive accessory pack at no extra charge. Having shipping paid for if you picked it up at your nearest Tandy location. The sad part is, I have a Tandy business account (have spent thousands there), yet they probably will not get my business, and I am in the market for my first leather sewing machine.

Chakotay, I am surprised a more senior member has not addressed your concerns regarding this. I am neither a moderator or site admin, so this is obviously just my opinion; but I see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to post a link to a series of how to videos on leather working. After all, isn’t sharing knowledge of leather working, one of the purposes of this site? Although Will Ghormley has a very nice and informative step by step walk through on making The Hand of God holster and gun belt, a different perspective and/or method of the process can be very helpful. Some also learn better by watching a video vs reading a tutorial. I watched all five videos in the series and commend you on the undertaking. I know from experience that preparing for, filming, and post production can all be quite time consuming. Awesome job in that respect, not to mention that the quality of lighting and shooting angles was top notch. As for the actual content, I don’t think it would be fair for me to critic that, as I had already read Will’s tutorial a number of times over the years, prior to watching your series, and may be predisposed to favoring his approach. For someone new, these could be very useful and educational. I do have two comments though. One it would have been nice to include some shots of you in the opening introduction. I think people would like to see who is talking to them. Second, a short sequence of the stitching process would have been useful to the beginner holster maker. All in all, a great job on the videos. Keep up the good work!

Tandy needles are OK if you don’t have anything else on hand, but I also use John James needles as my primary go to needles. Also like the others, 1mm Ritza Tiger thread for me as well. Not only is it strong, but it is already waxed and comes in a great assortment of colors. Most sizing charts have you use size 0 harness needles with the 1mm Tiger thread, but I prefer to use size 2 as well. they are slightly harder to thread, but the smaller eye is easier to pull through multiple layers of 7/8 oz (or thicker) veg tanned leather. if you do end up ordering John James size 2 needles, make sure they are size 002 (2), and not size 2/0 (00) , which is a much larger needle Tandy Craftool Pro awl woks well for me, but you may want to invest in some nice diamond chisel sets. Pushing even the sharpest awl through two layers of 8 oz veg tanned can be challenging. I always pre punch my stitching holes whenever possible, and use the awl while stitching, to clean up the holes and allow the needles to pass through more easily.

Noobleather, Other than getting the order of your stitching a little wrong, you are off to a great start. The basket weave is spot on, and I really like the black leather with the red thread, it makes a nice contrast. Like others have posted, I am looking forward to seeing the finished holster and belt. You might find this thread helpful in making western holsters, it really helped me out. Jim has a link to a pdf file that walks you through the process step by step. He also has another tutorial on western gun belts. If I find that one as well, I will update my post.

Great job! Now it is a family heirloom ready to be passed down to the next generation. You can’t ask for much more than that. I am sure that your friend will be thrilled with it if he hasn’t already seen it. I know I would be.

YinTx, Not fair! After all, I did provide Sanch the list of tiny tools we used, before I showed him my big horse head. Also you should go take a class from Jim. It was worth the money to watch him work. Darn, he just makes figure carving look so effortless and down right easy! The man is one of the masters. You should see him sign his name (much smaller than pictured) in his leather work. I didn't know anyone could have that much control with a swivel knife.

I appreciate the comments! Everyone should know that I searched Pinterest for months pinning holster rigs that I liked. I kept going back to one photo in particular, that had a rig with design elements that I really liked. I took the design and modified to suit my needs and that of CAS. Yesterday, I decided to see if I could track down who the original creator of that rig was. As it turns out my search lead me back to leatherworker.net, and one of our very talented and prolific leather workers - Josh Ashmen. Here is the rig I based my work on: So a big thank you to Josh for the inspiration behind my rig. Steve

I took a 2 day figure carving class from Jim Linnell at my local Tandy last August. Here are the figure carving tools he recommends: "For the Figure Carving part of the class (if you don’t have these tools and don’t want to purchase new ones – using something that is close to these will work, too.):" #6896-00 - F896 #6895-00 - F895 #6891-00 - F891 #6890-00 - F890 #6902-00 - F902 #6941-00 - F941 #6976-00 - F976 #6703-00 - P703 #6900-00 - F900 #6899-00 - F899 #6898-00 - F898 #6098-00 - A98 These are the catalog numbers, followed by the actual stamp number. I hope this helps. By the way, here is my feeble attempt from the class. It was my first time figure carving, and it is apparent, I need a lot more practice with the swivel knife.

Thank you Josh!