Handmade machine stitched?

[robs456]

Today I visited a hipster heavy 'design center' of sorts and saw a cardholder that was clearly machine stitched. Asking the staff they claimed it to be handmade. When pressured she claimed that they used their hands when operating the sewing machine. 

WTH?

When is it not hand made?

Personally I think using machines for burnishing is ok, cutting is questionable and sewing is plain not. Am I too old school? 

What's your thinking on this?

[bikermutt07]

I think handmade means it wasn't made on a large production line.

If it is made (even in an production line style) with less than say 4 to 8 people, I would still consider it handmade. 

If anyone is going to be in a successful business replication of efforts is a must. I wouldn't knock a small business for that. 

If you go to a family restaurant they aren't cooking on a wood burning stove and churning butter by hand. But it is still considered home cooking.

Mass production in my mind is not handmade. 100 people working on an a production line all making one component is not handmade. 

Anything short of mass production is handmade in my book.

This is coming from a hobbyist with no clicker press or sewing machine (yet).

[robs456]

22 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

Mass production in my mind is not handmade. 100 people working on an a production line all making one component is not handmade.

I get your point but what do you say about the likes of hermes, 1 guy makes a kelly bag in about a week but they have 50 guys doing it? No machines except the clicker press. What if only the handles were made by only one guy? 

[bikermutt07]

17 minutes ago, robs456 said:

I get your point but what do you say about the likes of hermes, 1 guy makes a kelly bag in about a week but they have 50 guys doing it? No machines except the clicker press. What if only the handles were made by only one guy? 

I would think that would be in a category of it's own. Still handmade but on a large scale.

Kimber does the same thing. One gun one smith (I think it's Kimber). But, they are on the large production scale.

That one guy you mention is probably an apprentice. Or a master handle maker? I don't know.

There are always exceptions to every rule. 

And this is all a matter of opinion and conjecture. I don't think there are any hard set factual rules in place that could definitely solve the argument.

So, we are just left with opinions. And my opinion isn't worth much.

 

[robs456]

44 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

And my opinion isn't worth much.

Mine neither it seems, the big brands get away with murder. 

Launching my brand as 'all handmade', seems like that might not be worth as much as I thought...

 

 

[bikermutt07]

4 minutes ago, robs456 said:

Mine neither it seems, the big brands get away with murder. 

Launching my brand as 'all handmade', seems like that might not be worth as much as I thought...

 

 

What about all "handstitched"?

It's all about the marketing.

[garypl]

4 minutes ago, robs456 said:

Mine neither it seems, the big brands get away with murder. 

Launching my brand as 'all handmade', seems like that might not be worth as much as I thought...

 

 

Perhaps it would be easier to brand your products as “custom” or “made to order” to differentiate from mass produced products. 

I agree with Mutt, if you are making a product from start to finish by yourself, I would classify it as being handmade, regardless of  your use of a sewing machine or other “modern” tools.  Again, just my opinion!

Gary

[robs456]

Yeah, I'll make custom stuff for sure but will also have a "line" of standard bracelets to sell, though they will be made to order to keep inventory down.

[Matt S]

What's wrong with machine sewing or using cutting dies?

[alpha2]

It they'd said hand stitched, that would be different. 

If I roll out the hide, cut it out with a round knife, carve it or stamp it, as opposed to using an embossing machine, then dye it with a dauber, and buff it with a cloth, bevel the edges with a hand beveller, burnish it with a wooden burnisher by hand, then stitch it on a Cowboy 4500, you can bet it was hand made. Then machine stitched.

[garypl]

3 minutes ago, alpha2 said:

It they'd said hand stitched, that would be different. 

If I roll out the hide, cut it out with a round knife, carve it or stamp it, as opposed to using an embossing machine, then dye it with a dauber, and buff it with a cloth, bevel the edges with a hand beveller, burnish it with a wooden burnisher by hand, then stitch it on a Cowboy 4500, you can bet it was hand made. Then machine stitched.

Good point alpha - I think there are many people who don’t know or don’t care whether a product is hand stitched or machine sewn!  Some might consider machine sewn to be stronger even though saddle stitching is normally more durable.  

Gary

[Mattsbagger]

I don't really understand how a machine burnisher is ok but sewing machine not. I hand stitch because I like the way it looks and like doing it. It reminded me of that YouTube video on "handmade firewood"

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Mattsbagger

[robs456]

14 minutes ago, Mattsbagger said:

I don't really understand how a machine burnisher is ok but sewing machine not. I hand stitch because I like the way it looks and like doing it. It reminded me of that YouTube video on "handmade firewood"

Didn't see that one. Is machine burnisher OK though? I have one, but now usually burnish by hand because why not!!

Matt S and alpha, nothing is wrong with machine stitching, just that by hand stitching you get it stronger and you'll get the look and 'skill' of the maker. Now a lot of people don't care about those things obviously or there would be no wally world etc. Is it ok to price machine stitched stuff at the same level as handmade do you think? 

Now I wouldn't, but I'm not making the 'rules', just trying to find them...

[billybopp]

2 hours ago, robs456 said:

I get your point but what do you say about the likes of hermes, 1 guy makes a kelly bag in about a week but they have 50 guys doing it? No machines except the clicker press. What if only the handles were made by only one guy? 

Hermes isn't going to tell you this, but they do in fact use sewing machines for the parts of the bag that aren't visible such as liners.  They DO hand sewing where it shows and makes a difference.  

I expect that handmade doesn't have a solid definition - hence you find people selling items made from Tandy kits on etsy and calling it handmade.  Bespoke tailors usually use machines, but there are a very few that hand sew at the very highest level, and some in-between that, like Hermes, use machines where the result isn't visible.  There is a difference to the trained eye, but most wouldn't notice it.

I think that leather is much the same way.  Handmade is fairly broad.  If I were selling handsewn, I'd state it and use it as a marketing tool.  Those that know the difference will understand what that really means - a generally superior product.   When it comes to cutting, burnishing, and many other operations, when making a standard product the leather doesn't care how it is cut or burnished.  There isn't any distinguishable difference, and where there is use the method that gives the result that you want and your customers want.  If an item is truly bespoke, then a cutting die isn't going to be the best solution, at least for parts of the product.

That's just my 2 cents - and that's probably about all that it's worth.

- Bill

[bikermutt07]

Lisa Sorrell uses a sewing machine for boot tops. I would say those boots are hand made.

People have expressed here before about...

How a market won't really bear a price difference in hand stitched vs. machine stitched.

Because at the end of the day, the end user doesn't know or care about the difference. They bought a hand made leather item that should last at least 2 generations (with care).

Machine or hand doesn't really lend itself to the end scenario.

That being said, you can inform and educate your audience. And maybe they will be willing to pay more for hand stitching, but the real argument boils down to how popular or "in" is your product.

When it comes to sales, the most experienced salesmen will sell on emotional connection. Not construction techniques.

One needs to sell the experience of having a favorite bag that only lasted 6 months compared to the bag that went on all the adventures with them, that now they can pass on to one of their children.

See the difference? Well made is well made. But the sale comes from connecting on the clients' level.

[garypl]

7 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

Lisa Sorrell uses a sewing machine for boot tops. I would say those boots are hand made.

People have expressed here before about...

How a market won't really bear a price difference in hand stitched vs. machine stitched.

Because at the end of the day, the end user doesn't know or care about the difference. They bought a hand made leather item that should last at least 2 generations (with care).

Machine or hand doesn't really lend itself to the end scenario.

That being said, you can inform and educate your audience. And maybe they will be willing to pay more for hand stitching, but the real argument boils down to how popular or "in" is your product.

When it comes to sales, the most experienced salesmen will sell on emotional connection. Not construction techniques.

One needs to sell the experience of having a favorite bag that only lasted 6 months compared to the bag that went on all the adventures with them, that now they can pass on to one of their children.

See the difference? Well made is well made. But the sale comes from connecting on the clients' level.

Well said Mutt - at the end of the day you explain the options to your customer and give them what they want!

[robs456]

25 minutes ago, garypl said:

Well said Mutt - at the end of the day you explain the options to your customer and give them what they want!

But do the customer know what they really want? I was told by the owner of a successful tannery in the US that the biggest market for handmade goods is Japan because they know and appreciate the value of handmade stuff. While the US and Europe is way behind, with the increasing hipster market leading the way. People look down on hipsters but really, these guys with their homemade beers, beets and funny hats really know what's up. Homemade and small scale FTW. Man, I wish I was young enough to be a hipster, maybe I can be a wannabe?

[bikermutt07]

8 minutes ago, robs456 said:

But do the customer know what they really want? I was told by the owner of a successful tannery in the US that the biggest market for handmade goods is Japan because they know and appreciate the value of handmade stuff. While the US and Europe is way behind, with the increasing hipster market leading the way. People look down on hipsters but really, these guys with their homemade beers, beets and funny hats really know what's up. Homemade and small scale FTW. Man, I wish I was young enough to be a hipster, maybe I can be a wannabe?

Well, all we can do is look back and see where we as a group let our market slip away.

There is a large time Gap in the domestic leather industry. From the 70s- to recently our market was allowed to be wooed away by cheaper import prices. Personally, I blame the jet set cocaine 80's. That's where everyone was supposed to be too rich to care about anything. 

Now we look to our current situation. People are starting to slowly wake up from the "disposable age". And this is where we can step up and educate the market.

Of course I could just be talking out of my butt. Opinions yet again.

[YinTx]

4 hours ago, robs456 said:

No machines except the clicker press.

Hermes does use machines.  Even on things you see.  Look at their watch strap making process youtube video:  machine stitched.  Clicked out.  

I was looking at one of their "L" shaped wallets online on their website the other day.  Clearly machine stitched, and not well I might add.  But still $600 for a flappy piece of leather. 

Many other high end fashion houses have their products made in Asia/China - think Burberry, LV, Dooney and Burke, etc.  

I have to point out my value added when I am talking to clients.  This means letting them know leather qualities/sourcing, thread, stitching quality, edge work, tooling qualities, customization available, etc.  If I don't then I'll be asked to compete with a WalMart product.  Or a high end fashion brand made on an assembly line.

YinTx

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, robs456 said:

nothing is wrong with machine stitching, just that by hand stitching you get it stronger and you'll get the look and 'skill' of the maker. Now a lot of people don't care about those things obviously or there would be no wally world etc.

I hear this repeated amongst the hobby leatherworking community a lot, and taken as gospel. I don't say this as a disparagement but simply as fact. I've said it many times myself. Under certain circumstances yes saddle stitching can be stronger than machine stitching. Perhaps when heavy stitchers first came out saddlers tried to emulate what they were doing by hand and found the machined seams lacking. However machine stitching is simply different. Good design and execution reflects this -- accounting for the different strengths and weaknesses of each construction technique.

I machine-stitch card pocket bottoms with TKT40 nylon thread. I could saddle-stitch it with 8-ply linen thread but it doesn't need that strength. What it does need is a seam that sits flat against the leather to allow a card to slide past it on both sides. TKT40 lock-stitched with a NM100 leather-point needle and 2mm stitch length allows me to do this. It also allows me to spend a lot less time per item, which brings down what I have to charge the customer. It is stronger than the situation requires and, for these reasons, better than hand stitching. Strength isn't everything.

Is it ok to price machine stitched stuff at the same level as handmade do you think?

As others have said above, "hand made" != "hand sewn". If I bought a "hand made" shirt I would not expect the seamstress to sit there for 12 hours with a needle and thread. If a cabinetmaker sold me a "hand made" box to keep my cufflinks in I would have no problem with his using a power sander. However if he advertised it as having "hand-cut dovetails" I would be very angry to find he'd done them with a router jig. Or he may use a comb joint or a locking mitre. The locking mitre may not be as strong as a dovetail but it would look cleaner, be faster to make and I would trust him to make it stronger than it needs to be to do the job. Task him to build me a box for transporting my fossil collection and I would not expect him to supply me a thing of balsa butt-jointed with hot-melt glue. I am paying for the seamstress or cabinetmaker's skill and experience at technical design, the materials used, their execution, their aesthetic sense and the convenience over doing it myself. The price will reflect this. So it is with what I sell.

[Dun]

I don't want to get into the this Versus that at the moment but did want to describe the process of someone I follow on instagram. I was pretty impressed with his process.

He starts at least 3 holes in the leather with no thread in the machine. Just letting it's needle make evenly spaced holes.

Then he threads up the needles and machine stitches the product, leaving the end of the project with some more threadless holes. By leaving enough head and tail length on the threads he goes back and handstitches  (& hand back stitches) both ends.

The best of both worlds and it looks great?

[bikermutt07]

13 minutes ago, Dun said:

I don't want to get into the this Versus that at the moment but did want to describe the process of someone I follow on instagram. I was pretty impressed with his process.

He starts at least 3 holes in the leather with no thread in the machine. Just letting it's needle make evenly spaced holes.

Then he threads up the needles and machine stitches the product, leaving the end of the project with some more threadless holes. By leaving enough head and tail length on the threads he goes back and handstitches  (& hand back stitches) both ends.

The best of both worlds and it looks great?

That sounds like a good process.

[Fire88]

This is an interesting conversation. 

So I just finished a sketchbook cover all pieces cut out with a round knife including the stiffener, glue applied by hand, hands pressed the pieces of leather tiger to get them to stick and keep wrinkles out, clips were used to hold the edges together and aligned till glue set, stitched on my 3200 and leather trimmed by hand.  I’d say that’s handmade.

I used to build cabinets and built my bedroom furniture, ordered wood in the rough flattened it(joiners) ripped it to rough width(table saw) planed it to thickness (planner) ripped it down again, planned it to final thickness, cut it with miter saw, used a router to give all edges a rolled edge, sanded the majority with a palm sander. Those pieces still aren’t perfect as my hands ran the tools, but you better believe I consider them handmade as my hands fed them through every machine and we’re on them through the whole process. 

Back to leather working how many machines does it take to get the hide from the animal to your cutting table? None of us are killing the animal, skinning it and tanning it ourselves that I know of. 

 

[robs456]

5 hours ago, Fire88 said:

stitched on my 3200 and leather trimmed by hand.  I’d say that’s handmade.

Handmade, machine stitched.

I enjoy the replies in the thread, very interesting to see all your views.
It's good to see that most agree that the price of the product ought to come down if it is machine stitched. I would also add  that I think if a product is badly hand stitched the price should come down (or the product tossed), yet we still see people selling product on sites like Etsy with top prices even though the stitching looks like it was done by a 3-year old. While hand stitching is a selling point and could be a mark of quality its mere mentioning does not automatically make it so.

5 hours ago, Fire88 said:

I used to build cabinets and built my bedroom furniture, ordered wood in the rough flattened it(joiners) ripped it to rough width(table saw) planed it to thickness (planner) ripped it down again, planned it to final thickness, cut it with miter saw, used a router to give all edges a rolled edge, sanded the majority with a palm sander. Those pieces still aren’t perfect as my hands ran the tools, but you better believe I consider them handmade as my hands fed them through every machine and we’re on them through the whole process. 

I think the comparison here is interesting but a bit off to our subject.
In this example you're using tools to do stuff to the wood, like sawing a miter joint, planing etc. It is your skill with the tools that decides the outcome of the look of the pieces and the end product.
Similarly with hand stitching, you're using tools to do stuff to the leather. Your hands are guiding the tools and the outcome will be dependent on your skills with the tools.
By machine stitching though it's the machine doing the work, the machine is guiding the needle according to setting, your hands are not guiding the tools. They're guiding the machine though, directionally, but the outcome of the stitch is due to the machine.
 

Can you be a master at sewing leather by hand? I think so.
Can you be a master leatherworker by machine stitching all your products? Surprisingly, I think so too. Just don't price it and market it as hand stitched.

[Mark842]

On 1/27/2018 at 7:49 AM, robs456 said:

Is it ok to price machine stitched stuff at the same level as handmade do you think? 

The market will dictate what an item will sell for. After years in this industry I've found that 75% of our customers know little to nothing about leather. They wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a high dollar hide from H.A.A.S. and a piece of naugahyde if they were holding it.  Out of the 25% that would, the only time it seems that anyone notices the stitching is if it is terrible or great looking decorative stitching. There are even less that could identify the difference between a hand sewn saddle stitch and a machine made lock stitch by sight, and even less that would know why the hand sewn saddle stitch is stronger.

 To the original question, I think its fine to say a product is handmade if it is sewn by machine. It's just not hand sewn. Semantics and opinions. I've learned hard lessons over the years in this business about different manufacturing methods, advertising, and what the customer wants and needs. The easiest way to sum it up is that Harbor Freight exists because not everyone needs a Snapon tool for every job and a lot of people just can't afford the snap on tool. If you have built up your reputation you can be the Snapon quality guy and make a great living selling higher end high dollar products but it is very hard to be the new guy on the block and be the Snapon quality guy. Not saying it can't be done. Back when I started my business I started it with ideas of making my items using better leather, thread, etc. making them stronger and more elaborate than the competition. My business fell on it's face and I started over again with the business model of selling quality simple items that could sold for relatively low prices. Things started selling and after awhile I started adding in some of the higher end items. Been going nearly 40 years now with a second generation getting ready to take the reins and one of the biggest lessons I'm trying to pass on is there are a million really cool products I want to make and I like to make, unfortunately only a handful of those items will become popular with customers and turn into a great selling item. Right after that happens is when the competition starts knocking off your design...but thats another story and I'm rambling!