Chrome tan, Veg tan, Other tan....Help me understand

[Rossr]

Ok folks, I have done some reading and searching on this topic but I am still unclear.    I make a knife sheaths and have made some holsters of the years.   I used veg tan for that.  Mainly so I can tool or carve.  I have also read over the years that chrome tan is a no go with anything metal ie guns, knife blades etc. In regards to sheaths I have made I recommend folks kep thoer knives stored outside the sheath since the leather can hold moisture.  That being said I am guilty of not doing that and have had litttle problems over the years.   So with that in mind I want to understand what leathers are chrome tanned?

 

Veg tan:  Not chrome

Bison: Chrome I think

Deer: ?? This one interests me as it seems this is used to line sheaths which is very nice but I want to make sure that it is ok

Pig:??

 

Others?

 

Thanks Folks

 

Ross

 

[kiwican]

Good question. As these leathers can also be tanned in other ways too. 

[fredk]

All leathers can be chrome tanned or veg tanned. You need to ask the tannery you buy from what tanning the leather got that you want to buy

[Rossr]

Ok this is kinda what I thought.  

 

So lets review:

All Leathers can be tanned either way and the only way to know would be to ask the tannery you buy from or if it was listed when you purchased.

Which then leads me too what happens when you buy from a secondary seller, I will use Maverick leathers as an example.  Understand I have no issue with Maverick nor am I picking on them.  I bought a couple of deer hides from them.  I didnt ask what kind or tanning nor did the listing say. I would suspect its possible that may not know either.  

So now being educated I will ask in the future of course.

 

23 minutes ago, nstarleather said:

 

Basically all leathers can be tanned any way...there is the "most common way" for some things and as far as I know tooling leather is "only veg tan" but everything else depends on the maker.

There are specific tannages from specific tanneries that are "veg" but it's not really a thing where you can say "x leather" is always chrome tanned.   Horween's Dublin, Essex, and a few others are all veg-tanned.  I've seen European veg that looks just like any any other garment weight leather.  

Pardon me if you've already read this post:

https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2017/11/22/vegetable-tanned-leather-much-more-variety-than-you-think/

Mike That is a great informative article and I dont think I have stumbled on that one before.    Part of the reason I posted the question was to educate not just myself but others.   Your article is great for that.  Thank you!

 

Ross

[Dun]

I wanted to ask about this topic too for making tool covers. Is it okay to store tools in Veg tan things like this or just use for travel purposes?

Edited February 5, 2018 by Dun

[kiwican]

Ive had some of my carbon steel blades in veg tan sheaths for years now. Not problems thus far 

[YinTx]

1 hour ago, Dun said:

I wanted to ask about this topic too for making tool covers. Is it okay to store tools in Veg tan things like this or just use for travel purposes?

This is my question exactly.  Also, would a heavily oiled/waxed leather like Sedgwicks be better for tools and knives?

YinTx

[Dun]

1 hour ago, kiwican said:

Ive had some of my carbon steel blades in veg tan sheaths for years now. Not problems thus far 

Unlined and rough towards the tools?

25 minutes ago, YinTx said:

This is my question exactly.  Also, would a heavily oiled/waxed leather like Sedgwicks be better for tools and knives?

YinTx

That's a good thought yin, but what oils are both good for leather and tools?

[chiefjason]

Chrome tanned can't be used for holsters is an old Wive's tale.  I believed it for a long time.  But lots of small IWB holsters are made with Chrome tan from major manufactures.  It's stiffer for it's weight than veg tanned so you can use lighter leather and get the same result IWB.  

[fredk]

If you have a bit of pigskin or deer and you want to know; try wet moulding it. Veg tan will mould, chrome tan won't [in my experience anyways]

[bikermutt07]

I have also seen videos of a guy dropping trimmings I to boiling water. 

Veg will shrink a lot when it hits the water.

I'm not sure if this works with all the different animal species or just cows?

[Ed in Tx]

Just to add to the confusion.... There are also leathers that are chrome tanned first then veg "re tanned" As far as using chrome tanned leather for a holster, I certainly wouldn't put gun in one. I believe the issue arises when chrome tanned leather retains moisture from sweat or some other source. The chromium used in the tanning process can react with other metals.

I have seen holsters where the maker used a suede a the liner which I have been told is a big no no.. the suede fibers can rub off and get inside the working of the gun.

[RockyAussie]

39 minutes ago, chiefjason said:

Chrome tanned can't be used for holsters is an old Wive's tale.  I believed it for a long time.  But lots of small IWB holsters are made with Chrome tan from major manufactures.  It's stiffer for it's weight than veg tanned so you can use lighter leather and get the same result IWB.  

This is true and I can only say that I have found many Wives tales continue and I can be thankful that I have many times checked out the tale and found it to be false. Just because a person holds themselves up be knowledgeable in this area may only mean they want recognition.Many I have seen would learn a lot more if they stop teaching and start looking and listening more. BTW there are a lot more different methods  of tanning than Veg or Chrome and the variety of further processes on even just these 2 methods can make any claims with regards to tooling or moulding and many other assumed good uses quite wrong.

 

5 hours ago, Rossr said:

In regards to sheaths I have made I recommend folks kep thoer knives stored outside the sheath since the leather can hold moisture

And I have to say most leathers can hold oil well as well.

[Rossr]

In regards

3 hours ago, YinTx said:

This is my question exactly.  Also, would a heavily oiled/waxed leather like Sedgwicks be better for tools and knives?

YinTx

I would agree here with kiwi, I have had knives in veg tan for  years as well with no issues .  Its just important to note that leather can hold the moisture.  Also bear in mind if you are using a knife in the outdoors so in cold weather you have a higher chance of moisture issues once back in side or if you were out in the rain or snow.   If you are in a climate controlled area...whole different ball game

 

So seems we have a lot of things in play here,   from what I can take from above, overall chrome tan probably not good for metal. Although we have a vote saying that might be false.  Would love some more data on that.   

In regards to knife sheaths or holsters it seems to me safest avenue is veg tan.   IF it can be found of course and is cost effective.   Deer hide seems there is a lot around but on some quick searches the veg tan variety seems harder to find.    I do like the thought and style of lining a sheath with it...but would hate to have a $500 knife ruined cause of the wrong leather. 

This has been very informative so far..mare data the better.

 

Ross

 

 

[rodneywt1180b]

I'm still very new to this game and certainly have a lot more questions than answers.  I do know I've seen "deer tanned" mentioned as well as "brain tanned" and "alum tanned".  Deer tanned may or may not be one of the other two.  I've also seen eggs mentioned as a tanning agent, maybe a variation on brain tanning?

I also have trouble with "oil tanned" .  What is it exactly? I'm guessing the oil is a treatment applied after the leather is either chrome or vegetable tanned but I'm really not sure.  I do know I like the looks of it.

It's a really confusing subject for me.  I'll be reading Mike's article and following this thread closely.

On a related note, I prefer soft, pliable, stretchy leather for my cane handles because it's easier to get it to conform to compound curves.  I bought a piece of brown leather that is great to work with, the black leathers I've bought have been way stiffer.  *EDIT* I'm not blaming the color here.  I know that doesn't make a difference*  Stiffer leathers don't work as well.  Right now it's a real crap shoot for me with more misses than hits. What terms or leather types  should I look for for these traits when I'm shopping leather?  If this question is better as a separate thread, please tell me.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by rodneywt1180b

[LatigoAmigo]

This is quite an interesting and entertaining topic.

Here is, to either confuse or clarify, a link to the Hide House catalog, which lists their many types of leather and a brief explanation of each. I would dare say that these guys probably know the business of leather and leather types as well as anyone.

Hide House Catalog.pdf

[chiefjason]

FYI, the Desantis Sof tuck is chrome tanned.  I don't think they are ruining guns with it.  Had to track down the thread where that came up.  

Chrome tanned leather will have no effect on a gun that veg tanned leather won’t. It’s an old wives tale. We use both types here and have done so for many years.

I personally carry a G19 in a holster that is chrome tanned with no ill effects.

Gene Desantis
Desantis GunHide
(800) 424-1236

[Dun]

Carry and storing might be different? 

[fredk]

9 hours ago, rodneywt1180b said:

On a related note, I prefer soft, pliable, stretchy leather for my cane handles because it's easier to get it to conform to compound curves.  I bought a piece of brown leather that is great to work with, the black leathers I've bought have been way stiffer.  *EDIT* I'm not blaming the color here.  I know that doesn't make a difference*  Stiffer leathers don't work as well.  Right now it's a real crap shoot for me with more misses than hits. What terms or leather types  should I look for for these traits when I'm shopping leather?  If this question is better as a separate thread, please tell me.

[my embolding] Soft, pliable stretchy, doesn't depend on the tanning method. Its the 'type' of leather, or where it came from on the animal. eg on cow and such animals [ buffalo, camel, horse] the part along the spine, the back, is thick and stiff, the belly part is stretchy and very pliable

I have 2mm belly leather that stretches like rubber [ok, exaggeration but almost] and 2mm back leather that is very stiff; both are veg tanned. I also have 'upholstery' leather which is chrome tanned, some of it can be stretched but some is much stiffer. The chrome tanned is pre-dyed and lacquered; its various shades of brown, I can use it like that or dye it black, but I can't tool it. Its also 1 to 1.8mm thick, maximum

You need to get veg tanned belly leather or upholstery leather or even 'clothing' leather - leather that is suitable for motorcycling 'leathers' is clothing leather which is stretchy

[billybopp]

@rodneywt1180b  Give "deer tanned" leather a try.  It's very soft with a good amount of stretch - It would have a very nice feel for what you are doing.  Deer, Elk and Moose are usually tanned this way, but cow can be too.  I don't know how it is made in tanneries in the modern world ( I suspect some variation of chrome tannage ), but it was traditionally done with brain, sometimes eggs added and other things.  Native Americans supposedly said "Every animal has enough brain to tan its own hide".  If you look about on youtube, you'll find a few videos on brain tanning - they tend to be a little gross tho.

- Bill

[Rossr]

I have done some google searches and found many forums and one off suggestions not to use chrome tan for knife, axe sheaths or holsters Then I did stumble on this ....On reddit just to add more confusion

https://www.reddit.com/r/Leathercraft/comments/4y005l/solved_can_chrome_tanned_leathers_be_used_for/

 

Again for me this is a issue of if I start to produce lined sheaths and I use deer skin, just want to be sure that its not going to rust the blade.  I will say i am still searching for deer hide that is veg tan.....

 

One thing I am confident on is moisture in any leather will rust your blades.  

[chiefjason]

43 minutes ago, Rossr said:

I have done some google searches and found many forums and one off suggestions not to use chrome tan for knife, axe sheaths or holsters Then I did stumble on this ....On reddit just to add more confusion

https://www.reddit.com/r/Leathercraft/comments/4y005l/solved_can_chrome_tanned_leathers_be_used_for/

 

Again for me this is a issue of if I start to produce lined sheaths and I use deer skin, just want to be sure that its not going to rust the blade.  I will say i am still searching for deer hide that is veg tan.....

 

One thing I am confident on is moisture in any leather will rust your blades.  

Check out this thread on DC.  It's where I found out CT leather is fine.  FWIW, Red Nichols has likely forgotten more about designing, selling, and making holster than some of us will ever know.  He comes off a bit brash at times, but his knowledge on holsters is unmatched in the industry.  He worked with Bianchi and others.  

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-holsters-carry-options/228758-sof-tuck-chrome-tanned.html

 

[sheathmaker]

@Rossr,  I answered your private message.

 

I specialize in high quality, relatively expensive knife sheaths which are made for knives from $1000 to $20,000 and are now scattered all over the world

I am neither advocating for or against Chrome Tanned leather.  I have used Chrome Tanned ( and possibly other tanning) Deer skin for over 20 years for lining my knife sheaths.

I have also used it for personal items.  In all that time I have never had, nor heard of a problem in any of my work attributable to Chrome Tanned Deer skin or other Chrome tanned leathers

 

Paul Long

[bikermutt07]

3 minutes ago, sheathmaker said:

@Rossr,  I answered your private message.

 

I specialize in high quality, relatively expensive knife sheaths which are made for knives from $1000 to $20,000 and are now scattered all over the world

I am neither advocating for or against Chrome Tanned leather.  I have used Chrome Tanned ( and possibly other tanning) Deer skin for over 20 years for lining my knife sheaths.

I have also used it for personal items.  In all that time I have never had, nor heard of a problem in any of my work attributable to Chrome Tanned Deer skin or other Chrome tanned leathers

 

Paul Long

And that folks, is from a true blue expert.

Thanks for chiming in, Mr. Long.

[Dun]

52 minutes ago, sheathmaker said:

@Rossr,  I answered your private message.

 

I specialize in high quality, relatively expensive knife sheaths which are made for knives from $1000 to $20,000 and are now scattered all over the world

I am neither advocating for or against Chrome Tanned leather.  I have used Chrome Tanned ( and possibly other tanning) Deer skin for over 20 years for lining my knife sheaths.

I have also used it for personal items.  In all that time I have never had, nor heard of a problem in any of my work attributable to Chrome Tanned Deer skin or other Chrome tanned leathers

 

Paul Long

Would you say long term storage falls under this or just during carry use?

Thanks paul