Lots of Medieval Knives and Sheaths

[AlexOstacchini]

 

Hi all

Something a bit different to the Western stuff I normally post here, and quite photo intensive i'm afraid... This is a batch of late medieval knives and sheaths, which as a very general outline date between 1300-1500 depending on the piece. 

The sheaths for these are all 2mm veg tan, with a back central seam and tooling inspired by originals. The main source of reference was 'knives and scabbards', which catalogues pieces found in the Thames. The two larger knives have double layered scabbards, which is a necessity as the hunting set is multi pocketed with effectively three sheaths bundled together, and the larger messer has an integrated belt. None of them have belt loops in the modern sense, but are instead suspended by hanging thongs, which are laced through slits in the back and seems to be the universal carrying method for this kind of knife. 

I had to go against all of my instincts with the tooling on these in an attempt for authenticity, so nothing is measured or plotted out in the way I would do a modern belt, and likewise the dyeing is much more straightforward, without the antiquing effects that would be used now. 

I have focused mainly on the sheaths here as this is a leatherwork forum afterall, but for anyone interested in the knives themselves they are all hand forged from 1080 or 1075 carbon steel, with either brass or steel bolsters and handles made from various native woods, which include yew, laburnum, walnut and apple. 

I hope you like them!

Alex

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by AlexOstacchini

[fredk]

Those are mighty beautiful - an understatement. That is sure one amount of work there. The photography of them is excellent too, highlighting and showing off the stamping very well indeed.

I have that book and your scabbards/sheaths really bring the archaeologists drawings (and remains pieces) to life

One question: can I please see some of the seams on the back, just to see how you tackled them.

As an aside: I was able to see and handle some leather work from a Spanish Armada ship and found that the stamping was very shallow, even for allowing 400 years of age

[YinTx]

YinTx

[DJole]

ooh, those are SO nicely done! 
No photos of the backs, though? pretty please?

[Scoutmom103]

Wow.  Those are beautiful both the sheaths and the knives.  Thank you for sharing them.

 

[AlexOstacchini]

Thanks all

8 hours ago, fredk said:

One question: can I please see some of the seams on the back, just to see how you tackled them.

 

3 hours ago, DJole said:

No photos of the backs, though? pretty please?

Woops, not sure how I missed this out, here you go.

 

8 hours ago, fredk said:

As an aside: I was able to see and handle some leather work from a Spanish Armada ship and found that the stamping was very shallow, even for allowing 400 years of age

Thanks for the kind words, that wasn't the Girona by any chance? I only ask I as see you are from Northern Ireland- I was working in Belfast for a time last year and managed to visit the Ulster Museum while I was there, so may have seen some of the exact pieces you mean. Interesting about the depth of the tooling. With these I cut in the designs and opened them out with a modelling spoon, but I think with a lot of the real ones the patterns are simply drawn on with some blunt pointed tool without cutting into the surface of the leather. I have tried this but never with good results, so need a bit more practice I think. 

Early days for me with knife making and In retrospect they are a little broad bladed for eating knives of this period, so the proportions will be tweaked for the next lot. 

cheers!

Alex

[fredk]

a. thanks for those pictures. I like how you look after the details, as on the sheath in the last photo with the double twist to the hanging thong

b.

7 minutes ago, AlexOstacchini said:

. . .  that wasn't the Girona by any chance? I only ask I as see you are from Northern Ireland- I was working in Belfast for a time last year and managed to visit the Ulster Museum while I was there, so may have seen some of the exact pieces you mean.

afair the pieces were mostly from La Trinidad Valencera. There were some survivors of this ship and the local legends are that these men bartered their goods for food and safe passage. What I saw included a Missal book cover, a few cases for instruments, long gone, and a few other scraps of leather. Allowing for the 400 years, the leather was quite thin. I reckon it would have originally been about 2 to 3mm thick, about the same as you used. I saw these things in 1988, long before I took up leatherwork, at a special Spanish Armada Anniversary event. Whilst everyone else was looking at the Girona jewels, and the guns, I'm looking at wee scraps of leather! 

c. 

16 minutes ago, AlexOstacchini said:

. . .  Interesting about the depth of the tooling. With these I cut in the designs and opened them out with a modelling spoon, but I think with a lot of the real ones the patterns are simply drawn on with some blunt pointed tool without cutting into the surface of the leather. I have tried this but never with good results, so need a bit more practice I think. 

 I think you are correct on that, that the design was just pressed into the leather with a tool, but certainly a 'back grounder' stamp type tool was used as well. 

d.

14 minutes ago, AlexOstacchini said:

Early days for me with knife making and In retrospect they are a little broad bladed for eating knives of this period, so the proportions will be tweaked for the next lot. 

ach, they're no so bad. At least your steel is better than the samples tested in that book. And you've not gone for the 'fantasy' medieval look on your knives. That really makes me ........

[DaveP]

WOW !! Those are great !! I like them all !! Great job !!

[chuck123wapati]

Made my day ! beautiful workmanship on both the knives and the sheaths. Very interesting the way you / they put the seams down the center of the back. 

[kasota oak]

Very nice work!!  Seams down the back are standard for Scandinavian puukko and leukus.  Did you use/make sheath liners?

[Tugadude]

It is work like this, both leather and metal, that keeps me excited about making things with my hands.

[battlemunky]

Excellent!

[AlexOstacchini]

Thanks for the nice comments all

13 hours ago, fredk said:

Whilst everyone else was looking at the Girona jewels, and the guns, I'm looking at wee scraps of leather!

13 hours ago, fredk said:

At least your steel is better than the samples tested in that book.

I can certainly relate to this! Visited the museum of London not too long ago purely to look at whatever rusty old knives and sheaths were on display- not very many it turns out but still a very interesting trip for me. In terms of the steel I am feeling my way a bit and don't have the skills to pull off a forge welded laminated blade but hopefully one day, so it's nice uniform monosteel in the meantime! 

11 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Very interesting the way you / they put the seams down the center of the back. 

9 hours ago, kasota oak said:

Seams down the back are standard for Scandinavian puukko and leukus.  Did you use/make sheath liners?

Yes fairly unusual to modern eyes, I suppose it is one method to protect the stitching from being sliced without the inclusion of a welt layer. There are some originals with side seams but a lot less common I think.  Other than the the two large knives these are all unlined, which I believe was the norm. 

7 hours ago, Tugadude said:

It is work like this, both leather and metal, that keeps me excited about making things with my hands.

Cheers, me too! I enjoy projects which involve a few different skills, though I sometimes worry i'll end up as a bit of a jack of all trades master of none..! 

Alex

[Rossr]

Clean work both the knives and the leather.   I can only hope to obtain this level someday.  Keep going I can only imagine 10 years down the road what u can build.

 

Best

Ross 

[Sheilajeanne]

Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!  I was wondering why very few of the knives had tangs or hand guards, then saw where you said most of them were for eating. Yes, of course, in medieval times, they only had knives for eating. The fork is a more modern invention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork#:~:text=Although its origin may go,barjyn was in limited use.

Beautiful workmanship!

[fredk]

23 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!  I was wondering why very few of the knives had tangs or hand guards, then saw where you said most of them were for eating. Yes, of course, in medieval times, they only had knives for eating. The fork is a more modern invention: 

If you look at the set on the left of this picture, back row, light brown handles, the small narrow blade is the ancestor of the fork

On 8/6/2020 at 2:54 AM, AlexOstacchini said:

 

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, AlexOstacchini said:

Thanks for the nice comments all

I can certainly relate to this! Visited the museum of London not too long ago purely to look at whatever rusty old knives and sheaths were on display- not very many it turns out but still a very interesting trip for me. In terms of the steel I am feeling my way a bit and don't have the skills to pull off a forge welded laminated blade but hopefully one day, so it's nice uniform monosteel in the meantime! 

Yes fairly unusual to modern eyes, I suppose it is one method to protect the stitching from being sliced without the inclusion of a welt layer. There are some originals with side seams but a lot less common I think.  Other than the the two large knives these are all unlined, which I believe was the norm. 

Cheers, me too! I enjoy projects which involve a few different skills, though I sometimes worry i'll end up as a bit of a jack of all trades master of none..! 

Alex

So do you sew or form the sheath before tooling or after? 

[Sheilajeanne]

Thanks, Fred!

[fredk]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

So do you sew or form the sheath before tooling or after? 

A very good question

I should have thought of that one  

[AlexOstacchini]

7 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

es, of course, in medieval times, they only had knives for eating. The fork is a more modern invention: 

7 hours ago, fredk said:

If you look at the set on the left of this picture, back row, light brown handles, the small narrow blade is the ancestor of the fork

Yup, all eating knives other than the big ones, though I suspect general utility pieces also. Certainly not weapons in any case, or at least not designed to be. 

I believe Fred is right on this, this is called a pricker and I think the general consensus is it was a multi functional fork/awl/sharpening steel. While it does go to a diamond cross section, the edges are not sharp, only the point. Here is a better image of that set.

 

7 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

So do you sew or form the sheath before tooling or after?

My process for these was to form them first, then unfold them and do the tooling while the leather is flat. It can't lie completely flat of course as it is stretched and distorted from the forming, but enough to carve in the designs, and in fact I find the stretch marks help for marking out the borders. Then dye, then stitch. There are probably better ways of doing this and I'm sure this will change as I make more,  so open to ideas for improvement! 

Alex  

Edited August 7, 2020 by AlexOstacchini

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, AlexOstacchini said:

Yup, all eating knives other than the big ones, though I suspect general utility pieces also. Certainly not weapons in any case, or at least not designed to be. 

I believe Fred is right on this, this is called a pricker and I think the general consensus is it was a multi functional fork/awl/sharpening steel. While it does go to a diamond cross section, the edges are not sharp, only the point. Here is a better image of that set.

 

My process for these was to form them first, then unfold them and do the tooling while the leather is flat. It can't lie completely flat of course as it is stretched and distorted from the forming, but enough to carve in the designs, and in fact I find the stretch marks help for marking out the borders. Then dye, then stitch. There are probably better ways of doing this and I'm sure this will change as I make more,  so open to ideas for improvement! 

Alex  

Thanks i was wondering if sewing and forming them then using a blank inside the sheath when tooling them. Of course if it were metal it would have to be covered with plastic or something to keep from staining the leather. Your way sure works very well.

[fredk]

35 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

Thanks i was wondering if sewing and forming them then using a blank inside the sheath when tooling them. Of course if it were metal it would have to be covered with plastic or something to keep from staining the leather. Your way sure works very well.

Its possible that the original ones were formed around wood formers. afair in finds of 'Viking Dublin' several knife sheaths were found which were all about the same size and shape but the work on them was different,  suggesting that some sheaths were pre-made and you bought the one which fitted your knife the bestest

[chuck123wapati]

12 hours ago, fredk said:

Its possible that the original ones were formed around wood formers. afair in finds of 'Viking Dublin' several knife sheaths were found which were all about the same size and shape but the work on them was different,  suggesting that some sheaths were pre-made and you bought the one which fitted your knife the bestest

A guy learns something new every day. Thank you. i would think maybe also the knives were forged from cast ingots so would all would be about the same size and even very close to the same shape from each blade smith making this easier than we might think.

[fredk]

Ingots are possible but prior to the heavy Industrial Revolution (about 1740) blacksmiths in Britain used 'bog iron'. Iron ore rocks found on the ground surface in boggy areas. They smelted them in their own small furnaces using charcoal. The quality of the iron and steel varied quite a bit and it was regional, ie the iron a blacksmith in the north of England used was quite different to the iron just 20 miles away in Scotland. Archaeologist specialists can place an iron/steel blade to a region by its iron compound.

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, fredk said:

Ingots are possible but prior to the heavy Industrial Revolution (about 1740) blacksmiths in Britain used 'bog iron'. Iron ore rocks found on the ground surface in boggy areas. They smelted them in their own small furnaces using charcoal. The quality of the iron and steel varied quite a bit and it was regional, ie the iron a blacksmith in the north of England used was quite different to the iron just 20 miles away in Scotland. Archaeologist specialists can place an iron/steel blade to a region by its iron compound.

Right as i understand the earlier smelting processes of bog iron, a typical hearth would produce bloom of about the same size every time as it would hold only so much ore so then after forging to get the impurities out they would have comparable size pieces of iron, my mistake calling them cast ingots.