bruce johnson

I have heard the definiton that it is widest at the base. Not sure from who. It is a little more defineable than another I heard. "It's narrow, and high, and no dish, I just know it when I see it". I might suggest we open this up just a wee bit and define how we each determine a regular vs. shovel vs. Taylor as well.

I am with Elton. Goats smell, but nothing is cuter than a baby goat, children and grandchildren included. We have been intermittantly in the goat business depending on the market. My son has traded in them since he was about 6 years old. Regarding the tanning using urine. I am sure it is probably done somewhere. I can only envision the collection centers. That said, ShopTalk had a series on some of the Mexican and South American tanneries. That was one of the questions that came up. Apparently there is a tree that some tanneries use that grows down there, and it does have a smell similar to urine. That is supposedly where the smell comes from, and I am sure a lot of the rumors of urine-tanning are a perpetuated story. Goats are consumed probably on every continent. Most all of these hides are tanned in foreign countries, and they use what they have growing there or close by.

Jennifer, As you will find if you are here long, my posts are usually a bit longer too. Thanks for the questions, you are not alone. As the Nikkels have posted, many of the major production saddles regardless of cost are made on mostly production trees from 2-3 makers. It is entirely possible that all the saddles you tried are on trees with similar bar pattterns and measurements. I can understand the old Billy Cook fitting that type horse. They did back then, until the Doc Bar influence really took over. I can share your concern with the tack shop person fitting your horse for a saddle. Most everything they have may be the same bar patterns ans spreads as mentioned. I have seen a tackshop employee actually give the following advice. "Quarter horse bars are for quarter horses. The semi quarterhorse bars are for breeds like the Paints and Appaloosas, because most of them are half quarterhorse now you know". You can't argue with logic like that! Regarding fitters, probably a step up but a concern there too. Are they going to be able to tell you what will fit, or just tell you what you have doesn't fit? Are they going to be able to tell you what to order and how to order it? Some are good, and some are self-titled fitters selling special pads or things that have not been proven by anyone but their anecdotal experience. If they have something like a pad that will make any saddle fit, it won't. I think the jury is still kind of out on the dry spot deal. I am not sure of the significance of small vs. large dry spots. Is the hair messed up? Does the horse get sore? Does it swell up a few minutes after unsaddling? What kind of padding? What rigging position(here we go again)? How long do you ride and what do you do? Level ground or hills? It has been reported that the production saddles (and by relation the trees in them) acceptably fit about 80% (or more in another place I read) of the horses out there. Whether those numbers are high or low is open to debate and depends on defintions of acceptable, stuff like that. I don't think that any tree maker from the bottom enders to the top are intentionally making a tree that will hurt a horse. Some are stuck in the past, and others are ahead of themselves though. If all of the Circle Ys or TexTans are hurting a bunch of horses and they start getting them back, you can bet that their tree suppliers are going to hear about it. Likewise with the Leddys, Larry Coates, Dale Martins, Cactus, or Dale Chavez. As Nikkels said, there are different quality levels in trees, and saddles can be a price point purchase for a lot of people. They sell those Billy Shaw saddles made up on ebay for less money than a good handmade tree. It is up to the saddlemaker to decide whose trees they are going to use, and what they are going to charge. There are some guys sticking $600 trees in $1800 saddles, and guys using $150 trees in $5000 saddles. All in what their comfort level is with their treemaker. My guess is if you have been through the saddles you have, the Leddy may not be any different. You have tried the ones that work for a lot of people. Your horse may well fall into the "average isn't going to work" percentage. That's OK, and you have realized that you need some help getting one to fit. You are probably going to have to go to someone to determine what combination is going to work. Some are comfortable eyeballing the horse, others will do everything from bent wires to casts of the back. The Dennis Lane card system is pretty easy to do. It may take something as simple as wider spread or flatter bars, or a whole setup of spread/angle/shape of the bars to fit your horse. I am sure you will get other opinions here too. Good discussion points and thanks again for bringing them to us.

Weavers do make a hydraulic model. There are a few design issues with it though. The top is basically a flat plank covdered with neoprene, nails will eat the neoprene. The tree is secured to it with two straps that go across the seat. Would be a problem if you shape ground seats on the stand. The drawdown strap attaches to the base, and you raise the height to tension it. If you need to change height, you have to remove the strap, lengthen it, and reattach it. Also once attached, you can't pivot the top around. There is a univeral setup under the top to tilt it in two directions. Apparently it can let go at inopportune times. It runs $550 with the strap and spreader. Ron (Ron's Tools) makes one also. The top is a contoured and covered with fleshout chap leather. It will hold a tree pretty well with no strap. The drawdown strap attaches to the post. You can raise, lower, or spin it with the strap in place. There is a tip up arm for tilting the tree or saddle up from the back. It adjusts in several positions with a pin, it won't just let go and drop. Webprice listed at $820 for the stand and $130 for the tip up arm attachment. Even if you make your own, I would look at Ron's website (www.ronstools) and check out how he does the topside.

The bar just got raised a little more. Outstanding and inspiring work.

Harvey, Let me be the second to tell you - nice work.

Russell, The old joke is to tie a set of Carharts and 5 buckle overshoes onto the front of your truck and start driving. When you finally get somewhere that a local asks what they are, you have found your new home. I have to explain that to some folks around here. Remember grandma's advice - cover up your head or you will catch double pneumonia, then you'll be sorry. We fly into RC next Sunday, so I expect we'll see some snirt in the shaded spots in the hills.

Another member (Harvey) had me post this portfolio he made up . From Harvey---- "This was made for a friend of mine who's in real estate. The front cover is a Tandy catalogue cover, available on their on-line wbsite. The back cpver is just a filler piece I made up. I was going to have a Count The Mistakes contest, but since entries would have to be between 35 and 60, I shelved that idea (for the time being). The quote by the way, is a modification of a Mark Twain and Will Rogers quote. - Harvey"

Been there, done that. A few things and everyone can add to the list - 1) The stand at the proper height. There is nothing worse than bending over a cantle all afternoon. I used to have two drawdowns, one lower and one higher for wahtever fit best for the job at hand. Neither one were right for cantles. Also helpful to be able to tip up the back of the stand and tip to one side or the other. This helps to see underneath, and puts you in a more consistant position. The hydraulic stands with the tip up arm are made for this. I did 4 recovers of the leather trim on rawhide cantles a couple weeks ago. It was awesome, I could stand up afterwards, and never felt crampy. 2) the right awl/needle combination. A slim blade awl and then a needle the size of an 8 penny nail won't get it. A sharp awl is necesary, but if you are pulling needles with pliers, it is time lost and extra effort. 3) Bleeding fingertips on the left hand are just part of it for me sometimes. I have enough calluses that I don't use finger cots much, but am not above a bandaid on the little fingers if they get sore. Cuts through a callus are not fun, but they tend to heal fast. 4) I have used the jerk needles and the saddle stitch. Depends on the cantle, and I have used both on some. Anybody have any thoughts one way or the other?

I am cleaning out some programs on the ol' laptop today. I am finding that I have J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 in updates 10, 11, and 6. I have Java s Run Time SE v1.4 2_03. I have Java 6 Update 2,3,and 5. Java SE Runtime 6 Update 1. Each of these are anywhere from 130 to 159 MB or so. Can I safely dump any of them? I have an HP laptop and XP.

I learned a lot about computer kept inventory and automatic item subtraction at work. We were test monkeys for a veterinary software package several years ago. What I learned is you are always out. There is no accounting for the pills you dropped in the sink, the 3.2 ml you gave and it took 3.0 off the inventory (after a while it adds up), or the bottle the other clinic borrowed and hasn't returned. David is right, you need to do physical counts. It really shouldn't matter how you do them, as long as it is consistant. What finally worked the best for us was to have an 'inventory side" and a "using side". When a bottle was taken from the inventory and opened, the whole bottle was immediately removed from the inventory. Easier to count bottles than pills. We have pretty much abandoned it now, and look at the shelves to decide what to order. What I do with the leather business has evolved. I set up some templates in my spreadsheet program that do the calculations. I have a monthly expense report I keep. When I get an order in, I break it down into sections for a monthly expense sheet - office items and expenses, tools, shipping in, shipping out, inventoried supplies, and non-inventoried supplies. Most of these categories are pretty self explanatory. The non-inventoried supplies are the things like sponges, nails, screws, little tedious to count things that are not higher dollar items. Inventoried items are bigger volume things that are mostly used up and turned over several times a year, but accounted for. When I total these up for the month it gives me an idea of that month's expenses - less overhead, travel, and a few others accounted for elsewhere. I also keep inventory sheets (files) for each item. I start with a Jan 1st count of how much, average cost for the last year, and dollar value. It is transferred over from the EOY for the previous year. Each time that item comes in, the date/supplier/quantity and cost per unit are entered. The spreadsheet totals the value and adds it to the running total at the bottom. At the end of the year it gives me a total for on-hand plus orders for the year, the average cost, and a final value based on that average cost. I total these files up, add the shipping in and out, the non-inventoried supplies, subtract the EOY inventory value, and it gives me a COGS. At the bottom of the inventory sheets is a place for EOY counts. It multiplies the amount by the year's average cost to get a final EOY inventory value. This is carried over to be the beinning inventory for the next year. A few things I do by convention. I estimate bottles by fourths - one fourth, half, or 3/4. I estimate leather by eye, if my sides of a certain leather average 23 sg ft, and I have about a half, then I have 11-1/2 sg ft. I don't figure the scrap bins at all. I estimate small hardware (things I want to keep track of casts) by eye, I don't hard count rivets, Chicago screws, or the like. Buckles, rigging hardware, and that kind of stuff are hard counted. Thread is by half or whole spool. There are places where I could short myself. Sometimes I have a big amount of a special buy leather and the price is low. I carry it over, use it up, and over the course of a year, I order a couple more at a higher price. At EOY, the cheap initial inventory has diluted the cost of the orders through the year. What I am carrying over is actually less value than replacement. One of thse actual cost vs. average cost accounting things that could bite you carried over for a long time. On those I watch myself and try to use it up before year's end and not carry a value over. There is a reason that suppliers have an end of period inventory sale. They don't want to carry it over either. Another thing this does do is force me to monitor inventory costs. If a new order of leather is higher, then I need to refigure prices on those items that use it now. I used to get nibbled on there. If I have a big order coming up, I need to get with my supplier and make sure they are stocked with what I need and aren't planning a price increase. I got bit bad there once too. All this paperwork seems like a hassle, but once I got it set up, it isn't too bad. It takes a little time, but beats the first couple years I didn't keep it up as well. Totaled up, maybe two hours a month on paperwork now.

We have had a few folks looking for the Fast Buckle stirrup buckles that previously were developed and sold by Ben Veach. I have a few customers who prefer them, and so did some others. Doug used them in the saddle he just posted. Last year Ben sold the rights to another company, and everyone was pretty close mouthed about who bought them, and whether they would be available. I got my new Walsall Hardware catalog yesterday and they are showing them as a #107 Adjustable Stirrup Buckle. They only have them listed in 2-1/2" for now. I checked their website, and it doesn't appear they have showed up there yet.

Doug, Give us some more pics buddy. I think that seat jockey line is interesting. I am liking it a lot. What tree? For the kids or you? One thing I see is that I would have made the cutout for the back dee have the border carry up into the cut instead of stamping to the edge. Also the froint jockey tip being pointed with all those cool sweepy curves just looks a bit out of place to me. Maybe round it off, especially since it sits up there a bit? Overall a really wolfy looking roping rig. It's saved to my "other guys" file.

Rayban, I used to use the red handled ones a lot. I liked them, and was sorry to see them go. I never tried to fix them, just tossed and replaced. I have a couple others I use. Osborne makes one in a similar shape at a decent enough price. One thing I found with the Osbornes is the the chuck is not as durable as the Tandy red ones. I tend to have them split out after a while. I get my money's worth out of them, but it is an issue for me. They always get loose about halfway across something major, and no backups. One thing I do is shorten all my awl handles. Even the shortest one from Bob Douglas got shortened. On the red ones and the Osborne equivalent, I take the back knob off. I was taught to palm my awl and it gives me more control for the smaller blades. I chuck the frogsticker blade into a shoe awl with the leather cap - likewise cut off, but not quite as short to the tip. I also grind one side flat on my handles. Two reasons, the first is too keep it rolling off my bench, damaging the tip, and making me say bad words, the other reason is that I orient the blade the in relation to the flat spot. That way my fingers grip it and I know the blade angle by feel. Another plug, Bob's are the best, and I have both slim and regular blades. I don't always treat myself to using them though. If I am sewing in cantle corners or through sheepskin where I am feeling for the tip, Bob's draw blood very easily. Diabetic finger stickers have nothing on me.

Duke, I see some with no wraps- just set and folded, and some with 6" of wraps. I usually do 4-5 wraps of 5/8" latigo, with the slit eye at the top. They are saddle string cut-offs. I then feed it up through the folded leathers and weave back down though the top couple of strands, cutting the tag off up inside the fold. I have seen some of the showier saddles with a barrel type braid instead of a wrap. That looks cool.

Art, I use TanKote or nothing. Kind of funny, on the new ones usually nothing. I try to use the pastes on the undersides the reduce squeak. I like Williams, but use Hide Rejuvenater or Saddle Butter too. I have some Black Rock, but haven't tried it yet. I tend to use TanKote especially on the cleaning jobs. It makes it look like I really did something. I think that little bit of shine just makes it loook like we did a little more work. Rundi cleans some of them, then I recondition and finish them.

Grumpy, No you have the other Timberline. This one is in Vernal UT. I don't have the contact info with me. Jim Redding has used a bunch of their trees and could tell you more. I am actually pretty impressed with a lot of trees. Usually when one breaks it is a thinner built saddle like a barrel racer of cutter flipped over on the concrete, a fork ripped off by the handle of a squeeze chute, or run over by the gooseneck when it fell off the flatbed. I used to compete a little more. I grew up in the midwest with halter and pleasure horses. Roped calves a little too. I worked for a cutting horse trainer named Keith Barnett in college. I was green as a gourd, but he took me on. I got to lope some really good horses and learned a bunch about horses and people. I saw some of the top end horses compete. Doc's Starlight (mother of the "Starlights") was owned by a customer, so was a campaigner named "Kingstream", I got to see the Dry Docs and Doc OLenas. Saw Little Peppy show. I got to see guys like Buster Welch, Matlock Rose, Billy Mowry, John Carter, Shorty Russell, Shorty Freeman, Don Dodge, Leon Harrell, Pat Patterson, and Dale Wilkinson show. It was a pretty special time, and I appreciate it more now than I did then. I graduated and moved to California. Married into a stockhorse showing family and my first wife had run barrels too. We did bridle horse/snaffle bit deal for a while and then got to trading horses and starting colts. I ended up with a heel horse that could cut a little. I cut on him for a couple years, he got pretty solid, and then sold him. My wife died and I went to roping calves on her barrel futurity prospect in the practice pen. My new wife has roped some and made it to the senior pro finals with her late husband. Now we just stay pretty close to home and are trying to figure out what we want to do when we grow up.

Grumpy, The three I have built for one guy on the Timberline half narrow trees are used hard. This guy runs his own cattle and rides for other people too. He doctors alone in the field. One of them ended under up underneath a mare who proceeded to tear up a branding corral. The report I got was that "Hodge would be dropping the saddle off, a fender was off - she ran a hind foot through the stirrup, and then she high-centered in the middle of the seat trying to jump over a Powder River panel. The panel is folded up like a taco. You should have been there". I wish I was there to see a good wreck like that. When I got it, the pins had sheared off the Blevins, that was it. Replaced it, and everything else is sound. I think they can take some abuse.

Elton, Here's what we sort of look like. At King's I'll be the guy with the bright pink shirt. Friday morning I'll get a table early and we can all meet for coffee in the terrarium at the Holiday. Alright under popular request from a couple of emailers, here are a couple of me in the "Elko ashtray roll your own palm leaf" hat. I won't be wearing this one to Sheridan.

Ed, Not sure if I shared this one with you before. There is a CPA named Bernard Kamaroff who has written a few books on small businesses. I was steered by my advisor to "Small Time Operator - How to Start Your Own Business, Keep Your Books, Pay Your Taxes, and Stay Out of Trouble". I would recommend it. I see he also has some new ones, one is "422 Tax Deductions for Businesses and the Self-Employed". Now that sounds interesting too. He writes in a pretty easy to follow style.

For once, I really don't know what to say. Even if I could talk the customers into it, I see another issue. Most of mine are riding horses I doubt would still be in the same zipcode while you approached them naked hiking up a garbage bag loincloth. If they did get mounted, that would be a tough one to explain to the malpractice attorney. Probably safer for me to just have them sit in the groundwork and go off that.

L'Bum, I like my plastic TLF one for the square heel end to get down into crevices or to sharpen up a crease like on my picture frames. I like my Osborne real bone folder for the point that gets into areas others can't, like the underside corners of a Cheyenne roll. The thin edge also has some applications for creasing. I like the ones with different curves for shaping swells on a saddle. I make them from chunks of plastic HDPE or LDPE cutting board. The half inch radius also helps with creasing up things like purses and shaving kits. If I had to choose one for the smaller stuff it would be Riley's. First off, the edge has a tapering radius working thinner toward the tip and I can pick and choose which part to use. The heel end is substantial enough to have a good grip on, and less hand fatigue. I can put some pressure on it to help tuck a Cheyenne roll up into place, and then smooth it down. Good tool, and pretty well thought out. Final reason is that Riley makes them out of Osage Orange/hedge apple/bowdark/Bois D'Arc wood. I bid a job restringing fence in college for a local farmer. He didn't tell me the posts were Osage Orange, and I didn't ask. They had been in the ground a while, and I couldn't drive a single staple in them. I had to predrill every hole for each leg of every staple for 20 acres of woven wire fencing. That was pre-cordless drill days. I did it with one of those eggbeater hand-drills. He was a jerk, but his wife fed well. Lesson learned, and 25 years later I still hate those trees. I am glad Riley isn't cutting them into posts.

Mike, The formulas of a lot of these chemicals have changed. On one of the other forums I am on, they have said with the new formulas the solvent tends to separate from the base material. It needs to be stirred each time, and sometimes while being used. Some guys like it better, and some not. Apparently this is not unique to Barge, but most of the other commonly used cements are changing as well. I am still working on a stash of gallons of the old stuff. I got a gallon of something from a local shoe guy that he likes. Another guy by me has tried something else also and seems happy with it. These have been delivered by the supplier reps and no HL fees. What I tried so far has bonded latigo well and dries fast. I haven't tried it on oiled vegtan or tried to reactivate it with heat yet.

Scouter, Some stirrups are all metal, some forged iron and others aluminum. Some have a concave bottom and are called "oxbows", although oxbows can also be wood, plastic, or fiberglass. The metal ones tend to be heavy and unforgiving when they whack you in the head cinching up or the shin unsaddling. The shape of the oxbow bottom fits the curve of tha shank area of some boots. and with the foot buried to that level, will be pretty secure. Most other styles of stirrups have a flat bottom, (some with wide treads will have a cleat installed). They will fit either the flat part of the sole if you don't bury your foot, or the flat shank area on some of the "shoe sole boots" like many of the roper style boots. There are oversized stirrups available, they are called overshoe stirrups and are wider to accomodate winter footgear. Different riders prefer one style or the other, and they all can be had with different tread widths as well.

Ashley, Good looking saddle. I like that pattern, you and Jeremiah make it look easier than it is for me. I need to whack on some more practice pieces before I commit it to an order. What is hanging on the near back billet in the pic of the off side?