bruce johnson

Tom, An area of the forum that probably doesn't get utilized enough. It sure would be doable. We had a little deal a month or two ago with saddles. Denise kind of organized it by setting up a time and making an announcement that on (insert day here) at (insert time here) anyone interested in discussing saddles can meet in the chatroom. It was pretty good, and several people checked in. We really didn't know what to expect as far as how many. We didn't have an "agenda" so it was kind of free for all - talk about this or that, and introduce yourself to others in a less formal setting than a board post. Some people who don't "do chat" didn't quite know what to expect, but it ended up pretty good. We have recently discussed doing it again with a set topic of interest. Kind of have it a more or less regular thing, with a different main topic, and then anything goes discussion afterwards. I think that could apply for any area of interest - sheath making, holsters, motorcycle seats, etc. Set a time up and go for it. Some thing that has been kicked around was when we got a little flush, new features could be added to the board. One thought was video capability. Either real-time or recorded demos. With the prerecorded demos, the auther could have a chatroom time for Q&A. Not sure if we could do real time and have Q&A right there or not. Something to think about and kick around.

One of those things that could be caused by one or several inter-related factors. Anything that concentrates force in one area can be causing this. It can be too much crown to be sure. Also could be bars too narrow and pinching, bars too wide and sitting on the top edge of the front pads, bar angles too narrow and riding high, bar angles too wide and again riding on the top edge. The actual bars themselves may have small barpads and not be enough surface area even if they do fit OK. Too much flare and rounded pads = less area, even if the spread and angles are close. Could be a bridging problem with the bars too flat and the ends digging in. Not enough relief at the edges of the bars. Skirt blocking issues? Might be a rigging issue. The position they place the saddle and cinch it up and then hold it with a breast collar can do all of this. That is not as uncommon as you might suspect. In that case, it may not be the saddle fit at all. Too much or too little padding? Horse's conformation is a factor, along with degree of condition(ing), what the horse is doing for a job, and how the rider sits. A lot of things can go into making this problem. Dry spots may not always be associated with a recognised soring issue. In this case the horse is getting sore in the area related to them, so it is a problem. The "fitters' concentrate on the first part. The "non-fitters" concentrate on the second part. The answer is that addressing both of them gets us closer to being right. Not too sound like a broken record, but to back up, Dennis Lane's system is a work in progress, but accounts for some of these things. The "S" vs. the "D" card profiles account for bars with more crown for the S's and flatter for the D's. The rock cards help determine the bridging/not bridging when ordering a tree. The cards used to measure the three positions down the back help define the bar spreads and angles. It will get you closer than anything as practical we have had so far. Different tree makers will use the system differently, but it is at least a benchmark to simplify communication between treemakers and customers. The hard part of any of this is looking at the the saddle they are using and figuring out what the issue is without stripping it down to the bare tree bottom. Some guys can look and feel, others check reverse templates, wear patterns on the woolskin, some stick a hankerchief under the cinched saddle in the middle of the bars - if it pulls out easily, the tree bridges. Look at the hair patterns. Well, there's a lot to think about and no easy answers.

Steve, Another source for steel stamps besides Infinity is Harper Mfg. They have been doing them for quite a while. Here's a link - Harper Manufacturing.

Jarl, If it is very small, it would be hard to tool consistantly, especially if he wants a lot of them on the piece. Too big, and it would be pretty time consuming. I would contact one of the tool makers and get one made. Even on one large project, the time savings and consistancy will pay for that stamp probably, and you'll have it later for other projects to start paying you back. For small sizes a delrin rod stamp may be the way to go. If it needs to be as larger size you could have a press plate made. I hate to quote someone else's prices, but you could muddle around freehanding for a few hours, and not be as consistant as a maybe $60-80 stamp or plate. Here is a link to Jeff Mosby at Grey Ghost - Jeff Mosby. I have two makers stamps from him, and have seen a recent custom design silhouette stamp he did that was good. As also was mentioned, there are a couple guys on the forum here on the forum doing these as well. Chime in guys - a chance to sell.

Kevin, This is the slickest format for organizing and finding info of most everything I am on also. It sure helps breaking it up into sections for sure. The biggest help is that everyone is not afraid to go back and add to an old thread, or start a new topic when a current thread starts to drift. This makes it much easier to look up things later, or for new members to join to find past posts. Sometimes there is some housekeeping to do - moving posts and that sort of thing. For the sheer volume we have though, it doesn't seem like much. My thanks to everyone who posts and keeps it organized, and the other moderaters more computer savvy than me who can clean up things better. I am pretty happy that a retiring leatherguy left some seed money with a pizza makin' mama from Ohio with vague instructions to start something beneficial for leatherworkers. This forum has evolved into something that nobody early on could have envisioned. A big thanks to everyone who contributes posts, questions, and funds to keep it going and vibrant. Special thanks to Clay B for donating his leather art for the last fundraiser. Thanks, amigo.

Art, I had the same problem with the SS strapping on the dee and straps I use on my saddles for breast collar dees. I use 2 holes and rivets to make them more secure and keep them from torquing. The titanium coated bits would maybe be good for one or two straps, even with oils/water/slow speed. Get them hot and just watch the drill bits melt and puddle on the strapping like the wicked witch of the west. The heavier strapping from my preferred source was a 2 bitter sometimes. I took to punching the holes and pounding the "splash" flat. Then enter my good pal Littlejohn from Detroit. A metal workin' man who solved my problem. (side note - Anyone heard from him lately??) As some stainless heats up it gets harder. He advised me to get the cobalt bits. They cost me about $5-6 bucks each. I bought a few and still am using the first one. They do a good job on the stainless. They eat old copper rivets like marshmallows. The real deal.

Pete, I heard about all the problems sewing stingray too, and was reluctant to use it for a few years. I also heard the little beads on the stingray would turn to dust if a needle shattered them and might as well be pouring sand into your machine. Probably happened to someone I guess. I am knocking on wood here. I have yet to break a needle or have any problems sewing the stingray. I mostly use the L/R point needles. I like the look a little better. On the 1245, I sew it with a 140 needle for the #138 thread or a 160 needle for #207. On the 2000, I usually am sewing #277 on top and use a 200 needle. I am sandwiching it between two layers of vegtan which might help stabilize the needle path. Still I have yet to break a needle or even burr one up. Sewing it on a home machine with skinny needles and lighter thread probably brings a whole different set of factors though with sewing. Biggest problem I had when it was topsewn was edging it. Those cut beads are sharp enough to slice you pretty good, although blood washes off the stingray easy enough. I used a dremel and sanding drums and got the best results. I think that is what Jerry VanAmburg was doing with his exposed edge stingray too.

Charlene, My linings are the same thickness as the top more or less. I don't have a large enough splitter to level big pieces as of yet. Regarding the space at the back of the dee ring. Like Greg pointed out, you need some room for a stitchline. I probably have a little more than that. It also depends on how low you hang the rear dees. Actually on mine, that area is pretty much covered by the rear jockey. I try to gauge my rear jockeys and back riggings so the top 1" or so of the ring is covered by the jockey.

Charlene, On the corner behind the back rigging plate - round it off. I don't like 90 degree points in most places. They tend to curl or catch things. In hindsight. Cut linings oversized to allow for little stretching things that happen with tooling and forming to the tree. Trim to fit after they are glued together. I skive my plate riggings on the top piece, I my linings are not a 100% lining of the top piece. The liner sits down a little from the top edge and is likewise preskived to make a smooth transition. I guess it all depends on what patterns you use. Regarding a gap at the edges of rigging hardware. If you case and mold it over the rigging harware, it eliminates a lot of that. Some guys will put little wedge shaped plug in there to make a smooth transition and fill that gap too. Seems like a good spot for a plate rigging question here. I usually glue mine flesh to flesh. If I need to do any extra skiving on the grain side of the lining piece, it is above where the screws are, so I am not thinking I am losing much of the strength of the grain side. A guy I talked with a while back does his linings flesh side down. His thoughts that as they wear, the grain side is intact and it is wearing down the flesh side. I am not sure there is should be much exposure to wear, but that was his reasoning. I also suspect it would make skiving easier if you don't skive before glueing them together? Any thoughts either way from anyone?

Timbo, In a nutshell. The piece with the posts rivets onto the fenderleg/lower leather. The posts extend through the holes in the billet end of the leathers. Tho top post on the securing plate is oblong. The securing plate will only go over it at a 90 degree angle from the leather. Slip the plate over and twist is parallel to the leather. Set the bottom hole in the plate over the bottom post, and pull it down to secure it. As far as how they work, some customers like them. Kind of like everything else there are fans of all of the different buckles. I have some barrel racing customers who really like the Veach fast buckles. Some people like one Blevins style or another. Some guys prefer lacing. I am sure there is someone who likes the Al-Ray buckles, but I haven't met them yet.

Elton, Good ones again. I like the overlay too. Got a pic of that edge guide for the foot?

MM, Bob isn't a forum member, but his daughter Vandy is. Bob lives in Sheridan WY. Vandy has Sheridan Leather Outfitters and sells her dad's tools also. That said, you can call Bob at the number JW listed or Vandy at SLO and get probably the best awl you'll drop into leather. It will come ready to use, with no further stropping needed before you take it to leather. He has regular and slim blade styles for finer stitching. When I talk to Bob, I always end up a little smarter than I was before. When you need some old hand tools, he's one of the first guys to call. He also has some hand tools he makes, but sounds like they are selling out and Bob is slowing down. One of the good guys in the business.

Penske, I don't think there is any one set seat profile for a reiner. Different guys prefer different seats. When I was growing up, the wolves were mostly riding Price McClauchlin saddles. Fairly good pocket and moderate rise. There were a few guys trying the "new" flat seat cutter seats, and other guys riding the California equitation seat too. Depended on what a person likes. Now it seems like Bob's Custom Saddles has a reiner model named for about every reiner out there. Here's a link to their siteBob's Custom Saddles. Don Leson has a high reputation among reiners, and his link is here - Don Leson saddles. Study those profiles and that should get you a start. The question of how many pieces to use depends on a lot of factors. How thick they are how, much you are taking off, strainer vs. all-leather seat, how much rise, how much pinch to the front. Find out what he doesn't like about the seat, and work at it from there.

Thanks Jon, I have an edition of that book, I think from about 5 years ago. I couldn't find anything in there on "Celler". Google searches came up with the name (not related to saddle), but mostly misspellings of the word - cellar. There is a makers mark maybe on the seat front. A circular design with a 4 petal flower possibly, but that is as close as it gets, and I can't even be sure of that. You and I must have played in the same barns. Usually a section of that fringey looking strap stuff to keep the flies off the mules hanging there too. An old banty with a nest in the manger in one of the tie stalls. Knob and tube wiring that still worked, chewing pilfered Copenahgen and finding an old stashed bottle of Cabin Still. I restored my great grandfather's last saddle a while back. Sound as a dollar and lacing is still tight to the tree. It still has the original latigo carrier with the tree style number stamped on it. One of my treasured possessions.

I bought this saddle a while back in an antique store. It had a pretty good old example of a fishcord cinch on it. The stirrups were brassbounds, with an iron strapping over that. Had about half the leather left. The metal horn is a repair horn, the broken stump is evident. No identifiable maker's mark on the leather. The guy wouldn't sell me the stirrups or cinch separately. In the past I have cut the forks off some old junkers and screwed them down to a board with the horn facing up to make hat or coat hooks. That was plan "B" for this one. Yesterday I got around to scrapping this one. A few items of interest as I took it apart. First off the swells are pretty narrowed and concave front and back of the swells. There is very little bar below the fork attachment. The front riggings were made up of two straps going down to the dee. The straps laid into those concave areas and were screwed and nailed into the fork. Kind of a Samstag rigging effect with it buried and not going around the horn. I thought that was sort of neat. On the back rigging, another WTH? The back rigging was one piece and also part of the groundseat. A slit was cut for the cantle, and it was laid over that. The rigging bridged the back of the bars, dropped down on each side with a tab to hold the rear dee, and then was the top layer of groundwork in front of the cantle. All one piece. It was set in grain side up. I thought both of these were pretty cool. I could feel the cantle was broken and was just going to lop off the fork. The rawhide was missing in spots (worn through, this was a user), lacing had let go, and the tree is pretty mushy. Rundi wanted to see what it would look like in the wood, she was thinking bookrack. I stripped the rawhide, and got a little surprise. In the front of the cantle under the rawhide was this little piece of paper that read "S & R Celler". I have seen other old trees identified like this, but am coming up empty on finding out anything on the name Celler as saddle or treemakers. Any insight is appreciated. I think it is kind of fun to take some of these oldies apart. It is a history lesson sometimes, and gives a guy an appreciation for where we've come from. Tip of the glass to the unkown makers......

I wouldn't do that deal. He is asking you to be his warehouse. If it doesn't sell, he isn't out anything - you are. How come the other guy isn't doing more for him if it is such a good deal? What kind of percentage is he charging? If he is setting the price, it is not consignment. He is wholesaling off your back. If he hasn't been "terribly communicative" in the past, expect him to pay you in the same manner. I got the "be careful on consignment" speech from my small business adviser at the start. Retailers generally don't make the percentage on consignment items as the keystone wholesale stuff they sell. Whose stuff are they going to push? Who is responsible when a piece is spilled on, stolen, or gets shop-worn? What do you do when one of their customers comes to you, and wants to buy directly? Do you cut out the middleman, and some would say steal the customer they got? The only consignment I have done was with two established wholesale customers I could trust. It was pretty specific. They both set up at the NFR trade shows in early December. Items were something they didn't carry in any other lines. Neither of them got anything similar so they weren't competing against each other. I knew I could trust them to either have it sold and a check at the end of 10 days, or I'd have it back for last minute Christmas customers. I only got a couple things back. It worked out well for all of us. They made some booth money they wouldn't have, I made money off it, and it was all stamped with my name, not theirs. Some of these generated custom orders that at least for the one still in business, continue now.

Jack, Just to kind of put this into perspective from my viewpoint. It did get kind of nitpicky when you posted before. I think you asked or the thread changed into "who is the best carver" and I recall names came up like Jim Jackson, Don King, Chester Hape, Don Butler, Lloyd Davis, Stanley Dias, and others. In the meantime we have picked up people here on this forum (in no particular order) like Jim Redding, Troy West, Keith Seidel, Andy Stevens, Shelly Liggett, Brian Hochstrat, Greg Gomersall, Ryan Cope, Steve Mason, and apologies to others I unintentionally omitted who have posted or linked to their sites with really high end work. Some of these do contract carving, and they all do fabulous work. It might be helpful to gauge the work by knowing a general price range of what you pay for contract work to give some perspective. One of the functions of this board is to link leatherworkers with customers, and this really might work out for everyone's benefit or reinforce who is doing your work currently.

Russell, I oil mine up with my dye/NF oil mix. I use Leathersheen for a finish. I have tried others, and at the end of a year, the Leathersheen bags and can covers have held up the best. I put on a decent coat, let it get almost dry and add another. If I want a more subtle finish, while it is still fairly dampish, I'll take and old bathtowel scrap and buff it, rub pretty firmly. If I want a glossier finish, I wait until it is dry to touch and then buff it, with the the same sort of towel. We might be through there again in a few weeks. I am flying back to Indiana and getting a truck from my folks and driving it back here. We are going to be leaving my uncle's in Windom MN the 22nd and headed to Cody WY to catch a dance on the 24th on the way back. Time frame depends on when we get away and if it isn't the middle of the night, I'll give you a call.

Brad, I got two full sides of 10/12 latigo, plus a remnant in one. I got 4 chap sides in another. The lining tube has about 8 goats, 5 pig, and one side of 2/3 veg. I have two sides of 4/5 and part of a 7/8 in one. They make these tubes in 6", 8". and 12". I bought an assortment, but took back the others when I saw how well the 8" size worked. They have a waxy coating inside, and I rolled them flesh out. Greg tells me even with the heat in his shop, he hasn't had a ruboff problem with the wax. I hit it with a little heat from the paint stripping gun to try it, and it took pretty good heat to soften it. I am not worried about it. My shop has been a little tight on space, and I am trying to do without one rack in there. I was able to get on one rack what would have been on one and a half, plus being comfortable having the latigo there too, so I probably almost doubled up on my usage. I put the other rack in a storage shed, and the excess is out there on two shelves.

I am going to step out of my box here. My wife got the vaccuum fixed the other day, and said they had a machine that sews leather there. Yesterday i checked it out. It is one of the Singer CG 500/550 models. I figured motor on the machine portable. Maybe some pigskin garment, they'll all do that. He pulls out a piece of petrified unoiled 13 oz veg and a piece of old chap and it doesn't even choke on the first stitch. I could run it slow or fast and it did a nice enough stitch for what it was sewing through, and no handwheeling. It wouldn't ever replace my 1245, but seems to be a dandy little machine. I could see using it for small projects and set up for lighter thread. Being portable it wouldn't take up much space. It isn't industrial and I wouldn't trust it for dailky heavy use on a lot of vegtan, but for little chrome tan projects, it might be the ticket.

Had a couple of questions about what I decided to do about leather storage. The old way was leather pushed into the rack and sticking out from the front, chap on top (which then slid off behind), and latigo under a bench away from the rest to avoid ruboff. I just have to say thanks to Greg Gomersall for his suggestions. I priced out PVC pipe is various sizes that would hold leather - not economical for me. The concrete form tubes he suggested are the ticket at $6-7 each. They just happen to come in 4 ft lengths - the length of my storage racks. The tubes will fit within the vertical brackets and not roll out, and three 8" tubes will fill the 24" shelves. I sorted my latigo into one, the light chap into a couple, dark chap into one, linings into one and some of the tooling leather in some. There are still some nooks and crannies to slide a roll into that I am cutting as I go on. I like this setup. I added a pegboard at the end to hang some of the stirrups, strainers, and stuff on. Pretty compact little system. Not real crazy about having to stack the trees on top, but with the better insulation and blackout film on the windows, it is a bunch cooler in there anyway. I have the bottom shelf open for a couple scrap tubs. As evident in some of the views, the electrician is still not totally done in my baliwick yet. Thanks for the tip Greg.

Art asked about these stirrup leather buckles in the thread about Steve Brewer's saddle. Here is a picture of a set. They make them in two post sizes for thick or thinner leathers. I kind of like them, nothing to rub and wear out, and they stay in place.

JW, Another great looking saddle. You really run that stamp well. It was an endless source of frustration for Harvey Lutske and I, and mine got a new owner before I learned your trick for running it. Congrats on a good one.

Steve, So is Smokey getting half leathers again? LOL. For those who are not semi-local, he is a pretty good sized guy, and trains cutters and snafflebit>bridle horses. Cutting may be pretty balanced in the stirrups for the most part. The cowhorse deal is not the same. No hand on the horn to keep you centered. Working a single cow, going down the fence and turning them, and then circling up tight on one will get you loaded from one stirrup to another. That stresses those fenders and leathers a bunch with a bigger rider, and a lot of these people are training and showing in cutting saddles. I think a good quality leather, heavy enough and treated right, and left full is a way safer deal for this kind of use. Secondcrk is right. Helpful if the rider takes a look under there once in awhile too - kind of check the stitching and rivets. Some of these production copper rivets cut close and pounded flat are just looking for an excuse to pop off and land you on your melon. At least with full leathers two straps have to break down low to put you there. Rickybobby, A little trick I learned several years ago to prevent some of the pull on fender legs. When you replace full leathers, fold the leather and fender leg like you would to match up the top of the fender to the stirrup leather and mark it. Slide it down about 3/4 inch below the mark and attaching it there. If you put your leathers on like most of us probably were taught, the billet end in the butt and the fender/buckle end is getting up toward the shoulder - a stretchier area. As that leather is weighted and stretches, it will match up with the fender leg and both will bear weight and it will sling some of the weight off the fender leg. If you were to match it to the original position, it would stretch just enough to not bear much weight, and the fender leg would again being carrying the load. I have to laugh at your description of the dude ranch saddles and their economic constraints. I wonder if their liability insurance would be happy. I had a guy leave me 3 towsacks of saddle parts to make as many kid saddles up as I could. He had a poor attitude when he picked up 3 sacks of saddle parts a week later. A personal side note to everyone - Thanks to all of you for posting questions and replies. We are all coming here with regional, use, and event-specific backgrounds, and sharing it and learning from each other. I appreciate it. As most of you know, this forum is run on donations and it has some fixed costs every month to keep it going and maintained. Most months is it pretty close to break even, but some months short. For what it is worth, there has never been a surplus that has lasted past the next dry spell. If you ever feel flush and can help out, the moderaters and especially Johanna would appreciate it. No money is taken out of this forum. I think there is a link on the home page to donate, and somewhere Johanna has her address. This forum was started with some seed money from a guy who said "do something to help out the leatherworkers" and I think we are meeting that. It has grown way beyond anyone's wildest expectations, and I don't think there is another group sharing like this. Glad to have all of you here and your participation.

To throw another maker of good mauls into the mix - Wayne Jueschke. I have Barry's in 12 oz and 16 oz for tooling and a heavier one for punches, rivets, and end cutters. They are pretty neutral weighted. Good for rocking motion repetitive stamps like bevelers and backgrounders and small foot print stamps. Wayne's mauls have different head material, and are more heavy at the head end for more of a deadfall effect. Good for basket and geometrics for me. Wayne's handles also are a little more tapered than Barry's under my little finger. I have had it kicked out of place a few times, and it is less fatigueing for me to grab the shape of Wayne's handle and hit with. On Barry's I use more of a rocking wrist action, ring the handle between my thumb and first two fingers, relax the 3rd and 4th fingers, and let the heel kind of flop, and that works well with Barry's handle shape. It is kind of a luxury to match the maul to the stamp type, but worth it for me.