bruce johnson

Dink, I thought I replied to this earlier, but appears that my dog ate the homework. My clutch motors have had a switch to reverse the direction of rotation. If you just swap ends and don't change the rotation, I would suspect the feedwheel would be going in reverse.

I have been satisfied with ebay as a buyer and seller. As a buyer, the automatic bidding takes the time and emotion factor out of it for me. I set my max and let it roll. I have sold a few used saddles, and some other things on ebay. The sellers fees charged even on the higher dollar stuff was way less than comparable commission rates at any auctions I have been around, or consignment fees at local feedstores. Ebay really doesn't do or allow things that aren't done at any other auction, except they haven't started charging buyers premiums yet.

Marlon, I don't use mine as cutting tools. I use them to define a crease or to burnish cut lines. I don't want them to cut any deeper. That said, every maker seems to make them a little different in cross ection profile. Most of my oldies are a rounded profile, much like a cross section of a really dull round knife. The newer Osbornes are more like a thicker chisel profile that comes to a dull point.They make v groove in wet leather. I got one from Jeremiah Watt that was thinner stock, but had a definite kind of sharp edge that would cut if you applied much pressure. I rounded that over, and like it pretty well now. The oldies will lay open a cut line a little more than the thinner stock one from Jeremiah. I do have a tiny old Gomph that makes a narrow little channel.

Dink, Bob Brenner's book is called something like "How to Determine Prices for the Saddlemaker and Leather Worker". He advertises it in the classifieds of LCSJ and Shoptalk still I think. Most profitable $40 I ever spent. Pretty sure that Shoptalk has it in their book section too. Basically it tells you how to figure overhead, and what goes into that. Then figuring an hourly wage, and combining them to determine a shop rate. Then he discusses markup and profits on materials. The principles are pretty solid and applicable. Some people get hung up on his actual prices and miss the point of how he gets to them. When I got my business license, I got a years worth of advice from a retired business owner/advisor through a local businessman's organization. He read my copy of Bob's book, bought one for himself, and recommended it to some other "handwork" customers to use a model. I don't figure everything exactly like he does, but it was a good guideline to get started.

It is custom. Tandy used to have an order from for those custom stamps, made by someone else. My makers stamp is exactly like that. A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Tandy had what they called the Tandy College of Leather Arts. A nifty little program. You completed modules on different things - case making, figure carving, saddlery, clothing, carving, lacing, braiding, hand sewing, etc. For evey group of modules you completed, you got moved up into another level. Once you reached ""masters", you were given wholesale prices for life, and other rights and benefits. The local Tandy I dealt with gave you your makers stamp once you completed the second level. I don't think that was universal, but the local store did it. They figured you had purchased enough materials to complete to that level, you had earned it. I really enjoyed that program. It made you do things you probably wouldn't have (like figure carving that deer 6 times to get one good enough to pass). You found out what you were good at, what you weren't, and what you liked to do. I got a lot of good instruction, Peter Main came and did the embossing class. A good program.

JW, After doing my first plate probably 5 years ago, I don't go back except on repairs or for a specific purpose. I like them, and find at least how I was taught to put them in, no significant issues with bulk. I see some guys who have used a deep skirt pattern. They make a relatively shallow plate pattern and the ring is on top of the skirt. That looks bulky, and I am sure is not traditional (i.e. "dropped plate rigging"). A shallower skirt pattern or butterfly pattern skirt, and the rigging dropping below that is less bulky. Using good leather, and longer tapered skives on the liner can help with the bulk issue. I am attaching a pic of my wife's saddle. It has little shallower skirts, and the plate drops off the skirts. I have got on and schooled quite a bit in this saddle, and I really couldn't have told you there was a plate rigging in it. Where I hit with my legs and feet is below the rigging. After you put a few plates in, and then go back and do a dee ring rigging, the dee set up looks pretty anemic.

Tracy, We are going to strike out all the way around on my first saddle. The tree was by Jim Parry. No longer with us. The leather was the Caldwell-Moser when they were in Indiana, gone too. The color came from Tandy ProDye, no longer with us, and mixed with neatsfoot oil. The drawdown was actually made from used concrete forms, and it was replaced last spring by one of Ron Edmond's hydraulic stands. The only thing I still have is that saddle blanket under it.

Note to self, call JW about the foam inserts tomorrow. Make a last to stretch bucking rolls over this weekend. This has been one stellar day. Thanks, Amigos.

Tracy, Neat idea. This is my first solo. Association roughout. I still see it now and again. Like when it fell off the flat bed and the gooseneck tires got the off fender. Still out there working for a living, owned by a guy who takes care of nothing.

Don, That is really cool. You picked a saddle with every difficult variation and did a great job. It looks great. Take it in, you deserve it.

With the popularity of the slick forks, seems like bucking rolls are getting more popular too. I am curious on a few counts. I used to buy, was easier than making for me. Now I want to start making some. I have some patterns, and have seen some other variations in height and shape of the roll. I have seen some newer variations about center connections - thongs, wider lace, and the latest, a silver 3 piece buckle set. Some fasten up under the gullet. Some are stuffed with wool clippings, curled hair, synthetic stuffing, etc. Also on using exotics, on some of the thinner ones, do you line them with something stronger for body?

It seems like we are talking a lot about trees lately, but rarely have there been much discussions on trees between groups of saddlemakers and tree makers. I think the recent discussion really emphasizes that there is a lot of good opinion and experience on this issue. I think we all agree that we need to get saddles that are a workable match for our customer, whether they are riding one horse or a barnful. To further define some of the tree discussions, I want to limit this thread to two different scenarios on bars only for the treemakers and play the devil's advocate. 1) I am a saddlemaker, and want to start using your trees, and you want me as a customer. I have used trees from ------ and ------- before. The ones from the first company didn't fit right (customers said), and the second guy's trees did. I have not seen your trees before. How do I tell you what I want as far as bar shapes - angle, spread, twist and rock? I don't want to order your "standard" , wait 4 months, it is not what I was getting from maker #2, and I will now be out 8 months and the cost of this tree to reorder. 2) I am a regular customer of yours. Together we have been doing a good job meeting our customer's needs. Now his wife decides she wants a western saddle to ride her new Peruvian Paso, Spanish mustang, morgan, whatever. We have fit hubby's ranch and rope horses in the past, how do I decide what to change and how to fit the wife's new ride?

Krains, I used the Lexol conditioner - brown jug. As an aside, I had a few emails about what leather I use the casing mix on. It was Siegel's golden oak skirting. Some guys who have used it know, it tends to be softer than Herman Oak to start with.

Hilly, Don't panic. If the spots were on your leather initially, I would think you might see some differences in initial absorption when you cased it, maybe not. First off, if your neatsfoot oil ever got cold and solidified, it will get little waxy flecks in it. Heat it up enough and these will melt back into solution. If you apply it and they haven't, they just sit on the surface in little waxy globs. No big deal, either warm it up in the house or hit them with a little heat. I use a quick wave of my paint stripping gun. It will even out. No biggie. To answer another question, neatsfoot oil now is reported to be pressed hogfat oil. I have used it for years. I have used olive oil too. I still use it on all my reins. I have several headstalls treated with olive oil 20 years old, I still use them. Subject of another debate that we probably won't change many minds on. Hasn't happened in most previous discussions here and in other groups. On the subject of Supersheen over oil, go for it once the oil is even. I have also done this almost from day one. I use either Leathersheen from Feibings or Supersheen. If you want to use a finish coat, do it. I have had no problems using it on oiled leather. I have applied it over vegtan, Diamond tan, chap, workchap, Siegel's greasy USA latigo (once I melted the waxy dressing into it), most everything. Every personal item I make gets it - wallets, belts, planners, purses, briefcases, ropebags, placemats. Stuff that will never see sun, and stuff that will live in it. Rained on, spilled on, hit with the sprinkler, sweat, and the water truck. I use other finishes or no finishes too, but the Sheens are my go-to's. A light wipe with a sponge, let it almost dry, hit it again. The placemats might get 6 coats on the using side. They might feel a little like plastic, but they wipe right off. Most stuff gets 2-3 light coats. My experience.

Denise, To weigh in here. Dee ring riggings are pretty difficult (but can be done) to provide much forward swing further back than 7/8. Also as was seen on the pics of the cutting trees you have seen, there is not much width or wood in those front pads. That is a construction factor. Obviously with the skirt rigging, position is a lesser factor. The bar pads not being as wide, a little flare, and there is less shoulder interference that might occur with a wider pad and more to the front. Of course the smaller pad and other factors (less wood on the horse) play into this to not necessarily make these bars the choice for some other applications. So the traditional way has been to make the cutters full or 7/8. I think I brought this up, but many unkowning horse owners (who are good in their respectuive field) have been able to set the saddle by placing the latigo and cinch behind the elbow. It's the only postion they have seen in the last 25 years. Now with Ray and the others on the road, the interest in the Wades and flat plates has picked up. They get a 5/8 or 3/4 rigged Wade, and set it so the latigo is behind the elbow. They cinch it there with the breast collar and have problems. It kind of goes back to my previous thread about making saddles for arena horses vs. all day sloggers. Regarding setting the back riggings. Sitting here looking at other works, the point of the cantle or just a bit back looks to be pretty common. I use this in regards to 3" dees, my standard for most rear dee riggings. Even if I use 2-1/2" dees, that just moves me 1/4". Probably not a huge factor in back riggings for saddles that aren't going to take a jerk. If I am doing slots or plates in a flat plate, I move them back a little off that. It was the reference I was taught. Not sure now how universal that is. Ok, Great! You just caused me to question something else I THOUGHT was law and blindly accepted. Sooo, how about it folks, what does everyone else use now?? Looking at my trees here, that puts the center of the pull on the back billets right at the wider part of the rear bar pad, so I guess I am just using the cantle point to get me to that point of the rear pad. I can see where a Taylor cantle vs. oval might change that reference. Interesting.

Judy, I get some guys that bring me a can too. I usually piggyback an order for cans onto someone else's order who is an authorized resale customer for Smith Bros. Otherwise I have to order 10 cans at time (which I do on occasion). If it is just one or two cans and not a color I have on hand, I'll order them retail. Most of my award orders for cans have had the cans sponsored or donated to the organization already. I just have them send me the lids. I do the same for guys out of the area, just have them send me the lid if we use their can. Last year at the Wickenburg and Elko leather shows, Latta Mfg (Kaufman, TX) had the thinner rope cans and the goat cans. Their price was pretty good. I am getting ready to order some goat cans soon. Personally I prefer the Sierra (Smith Bros) rope cans better, They are more durable for me. I have had them for about 25 years, and know they hold up.

Judy, Cool looking lid. I'll bet the crystals really light it up when it is all together. I like the 2 row border pattern you did around the conchos too. Different look. Rope cans are one of my favorite orders. I usually manage to move them up the line. I do quite a lot of inlays too. Hide is always popular. Exotics are fun too. I have some beaver tail I am going to inlay on one. Where are you getting that color can at? I mostly use the Smith Bros cans, but have a few that like those lighter ones. Do you make any goat string cans? They are pretty popular too. Some girls are carrying the goat cans as purses and I have source that has a mirror in the lid and a plastic pocket for a cosmetic case. If you want to trade some patterns let me know. Good job.

My general rule of thumb for skirts is 3" behind the back bar tip and 1-1/2" in front of the front bar tip. NOW be aware. some cutting trees due to longer seats will have longer bars. You may need to shorten that up. I have made some with 1-1/2" off the back, and had to just almost overlap my rear jockeys flush with the skirt backs. Some I have doen with the mother hubbard rear housing sttiched down to the skirt too. Also you need to allow some relief in the back of the skirts along the spine, especially with long skirts. Either build that into your cutting pattern so you get some rise, or don't lace the skirts together past the bar tips. If you have the jockeys to the edge and down tight, that can bind too. As far as rigging, it needs to not interfere with forward stirrup swing. Some cutting trainers will like to get their feet up into the flats and spur one around when schooling. Horse are also trained when"my feet go forward, you better be hunting the ground and getting back". Some are rigged with skirt riggings, others use a dropped dee pattern with relief for stirrup swing. Not many cutters seem to like a flate plate, thinking is it interferes with close contact. Most of the cuttng saddles seem to be rigged full double or 7/8 at furthest back. Because of the leverage factor of 200# people pushing on a 4" horn sitting on a tall fork and sliding forward, I think there is some leverage action similar to a calf roping saddle. Back cinches need to be pulled snug. On a normal saddle I usually position the front edge of my back dee at the point of the cantle or a smidgen back. On a cutter or calf roping saddle, I move them back a little further, maybe 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" from the point. It helps to anchor things down. Most calf ropers use a wider back cinch (up to 8" center) and this allows some room for that. Cutters like a little extra room to spur the horse and not the back cinch finishing up a sweep or jumping out across the pen. My experience anyway.

Nick, Thanks for the nudge, it will be a lot more searchable to have it here for the future. Ben (gtwister09) listed this in the other other thread. No More Tears Quick Casing Formula 1/2 cup Lexol 1-1/2 Cups distilled or filtered water 1 tablespoon Johnson's No More Tears Baby Shampoo 1 tablespoon Listerine

Pete, It was in a thread started by Randy. He saw Pete Gorrell demonstrate it at the Columbine Guild meeting. Pete I think watered, then applied the lexol and then rubbed in baby shampoo. Ben then shared a formula he was given several years ago. I usually case with ProCarve. It penetrates well and quickly. It has surfactant to help the penetration and an additive to discourage mold growth. Mold is an issue for some people in cased leather. I had it in my old shop, not a problem since I have moved. Most all of the casing solution formulas contain some sort of surfactant - dish soap, Amway product, ag chemical surfactants. etc. Some have tannery oils. taxidermy oils, glycerine, etc. About as many formulas as people using them. There is a heck of a lot of casing done with just plain old water too. Some people case with water, then use saddle soap as a top dressing. It makes the knife glide easier according to some, and holds the moisture in the leather better due to slower evaporation. I have done that a fair amount too. I mixed up some of Ben's Baby Shampoo formula (w/o listerine), and have now used a quart of it in the last few days. My comparison for now vs. Procarve. Most done side by side. I never had a kick about ProCarve. Procarve penetrates faster. For things I am molding, it will penetrate and get the job done faster. For carving, a few things I have noted. The swivel knife work was a little easier with the shampoo mix. The burnishing color was the same or better, and the piece held its case longer with the shampoo. Both basket stamped about the same. My wife preferred the basket stamping and flowers carved with the shampoo mix. She could pick them right out. Reason is that the lexol probably gave it more "color". They all oiled up pretty similar. Pieces that I cased but did not use were interesting. Once they had dried out, the Procarve piece was stiffer than it was before. The shampoo cased piece was about as flexible as before. I think a guy could recase with the shampoo mix and be OK. Many have said in the past if they have a piece dry, they add lexol if they have to recase. This mix does that. A few bits of background. These were all 7/8 to skirting weight. I case all my tooling leather at least overnight. I have not quick-cased and carved anything of that weight for several years. I like the long casing better. All of these were cased the same length of time. I don't antique much. If I do, it is over a resist anyway. Previous experience with saddle soap is that it repels my letter dye. If I am not dyeing, I like the saddle soap on big pieces - I can do a briefcase front and not recase. It will be interesting to compare the shampoo alone vs. saddlesoap on a big piece. My experience.

Luis, That is also known as a shoemaker's stitch. Basically a slit is cut into the leather and the stitch line is in that channel. When the sewing is done, the line is glued and closed up, and tapped closed. The slit can be made with several tools. Stohlman showed using a round knife I think. There are actual specialized tools made to cut that slit easier and more repeatably. Most people use a tool called a channeler. There are several patterns, but I don't think anybody is making one now. Some cut a straight line (either vertically into the leather, or horizontally into the edge) and others cut an angled slit. There is one that rides the edge and cuts and angled slit (Eureka pattern channeler). I have a straight and an angled one, and am still not sure which one I like better. In know I cut a heck of a lot better slit with either channeler than I ever did in my failed attempts with a round knife. There are no doubt guys who have done a lot more of these than me, and they can probably give better detailed instructions than I can. It might be that a local shoe repair shop could give you a hands on lesson. This is one of those things I have watched 4 or 5 guys do, and none have done it the same.

A member PMd me earlier today about a procedural question on some award items they were finishing up, and it got me the thinking that we haven't visited this topic before. In the past I have made a fair amount of awards and some wholesale work. For at least a few years, my wholesale and awards items made up over half of my income. I made all the rookie mistakes. I charged based on comparisons, not based on materials and time. I made items that everybody else was doing. I stayed busy, and sometimes the custom orders that paid better were put off to get an order out. On the upside, I learned batching and production techniques, I learned a lot about making different things, and I justified better tools and equipment. I learned it is possible to work your butt off, and when you total it up, you have earned $1.17 an hour on an order. A few of my big lessons. When I got Bob Brenner's book and applied it, everything changed. Pricing went to materials and time. At that time shop rate was $30 and I charged $20 for the wholesale and award items. Material prices were marked up, miscellaneous costs accounted for, and it was non-negotiable to the bidder (me). Rates have since increased, BTW. I could justify the lower shop rate by the increased production - time savings due to batching, using the same tooling or lettering pattern, etc. I learned after a few times that non-typical awards do better. As a recipent of a lot of award items, you can only win so many spur straps, breast collars, and haybags. By the time you get to that level, you have a breast collar you like, you have a saddle that carried you there, and you don't need anymore spur straps or director chairs. I started doing some different items - magazine racks, shaving kits, photo albums, splint boot bags, cosmetic bags (the Arizona assoociations thought they were camcorder bags), leather covered picture frames, brief cases, etc. Two things in my favor. I wasn't competing pricewise with import breast collars stamped by whoever. These items were unique - not everyone was giving them out. That gave me a little more wiggleroom on pricing as time went on. I still did some of the regular stuff too - rope cans, rope bags, headstalls, and spur straps. Some associations just stay in the same vein. The advantages I see with the awards deal are a few. You get to make a lot of the same things. After you have done about a hundred leather covered picture frames, you know how to do it in your sleep. I have a flower I have carved blindfolded as a demo. You get some exposure too. I have never got a lot of referrals from awards items, but enough to make it worthwhile. The barrel racers and cattleman's associations are decent about generating some orders. Ropers never call for something else other than they drove over the ropecan and wonder if it has any warranty. You can get one big check all at once. That is cool. True story - I bought a Ferco 440 (borrowed the money for it) and found it was not the machine for me. Ron had an Adler 205 head for something like $600 more and trade heads. I wasn't sure where the money was coming from. Went to my first cowboy church that night. The preacher told me that "something good is going to happen to you because you came here tonight". I am home 5 minutes and woman from the Arizona is on the phone. She wants to order all their finals awards from me. I paid for the machine and had twice that in the bank in a month. With big orders you can pay off equipment in a hurry, then it starts paying you back quicker. Another advantage is that you get to meet some pretty cool people, and few jerks along the way. The disadvantages. You have to be disciplined. These things have time frames, and you have to deliver on time. Silver suppliers and material backorders can kill you sometimes - keep on it, and know alternate sources. Get your work done. The advantage of doing a lot of the same thing is also a disadvantage. You are like the second mule in the string - the scenery never changes. I do things in batches. Small things like checkbooks or planners I might do 10-20 at a time. Stamp them all, line them all, etc. Take time every so often and do something else to break it up. Bigger things like briefcases or rope bags I do 3 or 4. If you spend two weeks and you don't have anything totally finished, it wears on you. I did 30 of the tooled leather toilet lids in one month for a wholesale order, I didn't want to see those for a while. Another disadvantage is that you have a timeframe on these, and sometimes I have had to put off or refuse a custom order to keep on track with something that was paying less per hour. That will eat on you too. I don't do as much of the awards stuff as I used to. Part of it is me, I am not actively soliciting it as much. This past year it was about 10%, and custom wholesale orders were right at 15%. Not a significant part until I figure the steady cash flow from those deals. Those deals all came when I could afford the time. The wholesale orders are treated like custom. He takes an order for a custom item, I give him a price and he adds 20% or so, and I put it on the board. He is not inventoryng anything, but he is out there on the road, and setting up on the weekends. Unlike some other customers in the past, he wants my stamp on it. Some of the others sent me their makers stamp, and I respect that too. A kind of rambling experience, but I am interested in other makers' experiences with this line of work. Hopefully we can all learn something, make ourselves more profitable, and prevent some one else from some of the mistakes we made.

Clay, I looked again. Those are not chatter marks, the chatter marks are on the petal ends on the other side, slightly out of focus. The lines are part of the checkering pattern, blown up they do radiate. This particular beveler has a lot of side to side rock to it, and that may have affected the way it took the checkering. Because of the rock, I have to walk it in smaller steps, but it also does a good job for certain areas. I also have a #2 that is pretty flat side to side. That is mostly what I use on tighter stemwork.

Clay, Pretty much the petals were beveled with a #2 checkered from Barry. (I am feeling shame, the radiating lines are actually chatter marks from the beveler walking). Interesting things the pics show when enlarged. I stood those bevelers up (to minimize the mashing down of the underlaying element I sometimes do) and actually tipped them towards me when I was beveling the overlaps. You can see that it pushed the points back even off the cut line on some of them. This leather is low shoulder and might be a factor too with a looser fiber allowing that. lesson learned. The veiners on the tips of the stickers is kind of a California thing, along with the matted background. Since this is a new post, I am going to add three more things I would change. 1) I would make the leaf smaller, I generally use the 2/3 size of the flower factor someone told me eons ago. 2) I would probably stick a flower bud in place of the other folded leaf on the right side there. 3) I would take a picture and blow it up, THAT really shows the mishits, off line cuts, and attempts to fix decorative cuts that looked cleaner and nicer before. .

Scouter, For general work and limited funds, buy every other size like a 1/3/5. Then if you find you need an inbetweener later, you will know. The numbers generally don't translate from one maker to another. I used to use the 127s. Randy is right about them. First, like most Osbornes, they are the makings a pretty decent tool. You will have to finish the edge when you get them. They are harder to sharpen than the more open designs. If you are not careful, each sharpening will make the blade angle higher and higher until they get pretty pushy. You need to take a fair amount of metal back on the bottom when you resharpen them to prevent this. Stropping down in that slot is best done with rouge on the edge of some hard carboard or leather. They are a step up from some other edgers for sure, but not an easy design to maintain. I had a set from Ron, and they were good. I have a couple sets of different patterns now from Jeremiah Watt. I have a couple bisonettes from Bob Douglas. I use them all for different needs. My wife does some of my edging. After using the 127s, she has never begrudged me trading up in edgers.