bruce johnson

Steve, Sorry you are off the river, glad you are back with us more. I have been looking at the rope bag all day. How does the closure on the pocket work?? It is probably pretty simple, but I am too sometimes. My guess is that the long tail doesn't pull all the way out, and you close it by pulling the tail? Am I close?

Alright, Monkey got us going with the steak-quest. So as to not hijack that thread, I noticed the south end of my north facing Ford tonight. There on the left is Beef, It's What's For Dinner. But, what do these producers do for us? And what should we as leather folk be thinking? Beef, It's What's For Dinner - and each steer consumed is two sides of leather. Got Milk? - and when those cows are done, they yield big spready hides with few brands Eat American Lamb - we could use the woolskins Try Goat (cabrito) - It really is pretty good, and the hide makes a dandy lining. Pork, The Other White Meat - Makes a pretty good leather too. Besides the real white meat is chicken - no flavor and nobody tans chicken hides except on the grill. Ostrich, The Low Cholesterol Alternative - Ok, this meat is not very good, but the hides are really cool. The Cordovan people have fallen behind. I haven't seen any ad campaign to eat more horse butts.

Johanna, I came up with a very serious issue. I am sure the earth may stop spinning at any time, and life as we know it may cease to exist. I use IE, not sure of what version. Since the update, I am finding that I need to log in at each visit. Apparently with the update, it logs me out when I click off to go hunt the latest ebay bargain. I did not have this happen before the fix, I was continually logged in and greeted lke Norm in Cheers every visit. Actually it is not that big a deal, but something I did notice. Just to be safe though, I will now wear my tinfoil hat and vest to protect me from any stray deathrays that may emanate from the new board.

OK, Monkeyman, I'll bite. We could consider beef to be a by-product of the leather industry. Best steak ever - filet mignon at the Steakhouse at Binion's "Horseshoe Club" in Las Vegas. You could eat it with a straw. (take the elevater to the top, not the restaurant in the basement). Have to have to have the lobster bisque too. Crown and water used to be a buck, and you need a water back too. They raised those prices after Benny died, however, but still a bargain. Top it off with the creme brulee. Pretty much should be on the repeatable list too. If your folks are like mine, they have sticker shock looking at the posted menu and won't get on the elevater. Drag 'em on kicking and screaming, you will have to offer to pick up the check. Best beef for the buck - Sorry Monkey, can't have just one, I have traveled too much I guess. In no particular order.... 1) also in Las Vegas, and a bit "hidden" too. The Prime Rib Loft up the steps at The Orleans. Hid out, great bone-in prime rib and steaks, a baked potato that is a meal, and the house salad dressing is awesome. Have been there several times and always a good meal. Your folks will want to pick up the check here. Especially if you paid at Binion's the night before. 2) Another also-ran in the best-for-the-buck is Rod's Steakhouse in Williams AZ. This is a place you could tell your parents you ate, and it hasn't changed since they went to the Grand Canyon 40 years ago. Even the menus are the same die-cut fatsteer shape. 3) Harris Ranch - Coalinga CA. Good steaks, great spinach salad, and if the wind is from the north, you can faintly smell the feedlot your meal came from. If you don't stop here, your next meal choice is Flying J buffet two hours south (and it ain't on the list!), there's nothing between here and there. 4) Star - Elko, NV. One of the better New Yorks I have eaten. Be aware it is Basque style - meaning they just keep bringing you salad, soup, bread, side dishes, etc. Pace yourself the first-time or you will be bagging the steak. Why every Basque doesn't weigh 400# is beyond me. Maybe they only eat once every other day. A pretty repeatable steak at home. Take a tri-tip roast (almost unheard of in the midwest/east by that name - but it is a California staple) and cut it crossgrain into 1-1/2" steaks. The little pointy end, same deal, but cut it into cubes. Medium-hot grill and turn 90 degrees to get the cross-hatched grill marks half way through each side. I season mine with Zatarain's Creole spice mix near the end - one side, let sit a minute ,flip and season the other side. If you cook it over central coast red oak, even better. However I have been reduced to cooking with gas for a while now. Oh, the little pointy end cubes are for quality control testing while grilling. You can also grill the whole roast, little less fire, more time, and season the same. There are secret family marinades too. I had a portugese wine/brown sugar marinated one once that was pretty killer. Slice thinly and serve with fresh salsa as a condiment.

I am not trying to be short, but what you are looking for really is going to be tough. You want quality and low price in a saddle tree. The last tree I got from Sonny Felkins was $325 and took about 5 months to get. The handmakers are going to be higher. So is the quality. The factories are "you get what you pay for". Bowden is probably the most consistant, and will take back a tree that is not right. Others are Baties, Black Mesa, Hadlock&Fox has been bought and moved to Del Rio, might try OxBow in Oklahoma. There are trees from Mexico on ebay in the "store" section for $100. Most all of these makers advertise in ShopTalk, and I would strongly advise subscribing to it. Not really much of a "how-to" magazine like the LCSJ, but has a lot of supplier advertising. They produce a supplier's directory every year called "The Big Book". I think their website is www.proleptic.net, and they might even have the Big Book on-line with the search function. You are trying to sell a really tough market. If these customers can't afford a $1500 saddle, which is pretty bargain basement compared to pricing on the Dale Martins and other production saddles right now, you are having to undercut materials or labor to compete. What is your price target? Are your customers comparing you with the $500 "buy it now's" on ebay? Figure the costs on 3 sides of leather (you will use 3 early on), a good woolskin, stirrups, good hardware, the cost of machinery to make one (you will ony sew one by hand and realize you can't compete with anyone on price), and then add it up. That tree cost is pretty inconsequential in the whole list of materials, and quality is important in every part of a saddle.

Greg, The servo motor on my 1245 has the rheostat dial to adjust speed control. I am pretty sure I can get away without the speed reducer and have just as much control. My wife uses the 1245 some, and is not intimidated by it like the 2000. She is a flatbed user from homesewing, and just is more at ease. I originally got my first servo motor for the Adler 205, and it was a bigger motor than the one on the 1245. It didn't have a rheostat on it, but gave me much more range of slow speed control than the clutch motor I replaced, and also had about the same high end for straight runs. When I ordered the 2000, I got the servo motor and it also doesn't have the rheostat. I am not sure if the larger motors don't have the rheostat, or just the earlier larger servos Ferdco stocked a couple years ago. I like the control and speed I have right now on the 2000 with the speed reducer. The new machine I have coming is a 2000 as well, second hand. I haven't ordered the motor yet, waiting to have the machine in hand first. I will talk to Ron when I get it, and ask about a rheostat on the larger motors. If there isn't one, I will scab the speedreducer off the 1245, or see if someone has one in the "boneyard". Ed, I am not concerned about the lack of punching power with the servo motor. I haven't checked torques, but personal observations have borne this out. When I replaced the clutch motor on the Adler with servo I had to "relearn". If I reached up out of habit to the handwheel to help it around a corner stitching slow (as I had to do with the clutch motor at times for control) the servo motor would throw my hand off. Also if I have the speed dialed up on the 1245 and handwheel around a point, I can jerk my wrist if I step on the pedal a little too hard. Some mechanics say that the servos have a steady punch power slow or fast, and don't rely on momentum like clutch motors. Don't know.

Pat, I am a big fan of Melanie, Arnold has really treated me right. He has a great shop, and keeps the cleanest warehouse I have ever seen. Good source of advice too. I have a 1245 (Ferdco's version) with a speed reducer and the servo motor. On slowest speed on the dial, it is a - g - o - n - i - z - i -n - g - l - y slow. Something like maybe 1 stitch per 5 seconds. I think this machine and motor combo could easily be run and controlled like Greg said with just the servo motor and no speed reducer. It will be set up soon that way for me. I have another machine being shipped now that had a clutch motor and no speed reducer. I am going to take the speed reducer off the 1245 and use it on the second machine. I will just have to get a new servo motor for the new machine that way.

Clay, Has been over 100 for about 12 days here. Enough temp swing to keep the cattle stressed. The last chronic died this morning, just in time for the cooler weather. Everything else seems healthy, but it makes 4 in the bonepile in 10 days. If I was just a rawhider..... I am doing more cow work with the tractor seems like. Now if the prevailing breezes just stay away from a direct line to the house, we are set.

One other factor to throw out. Seems like the old saddles I have got to sit in in some of the museums and where ever (Visalia, Porters, Hamley, Keystons. etc) all sat "narrower" than later saddles. Was there an evolution from narrower bars, an effect of groundseat build-up, or what other factors contributed? An effect from changing bar angles and wider horses? The effect that these makers just plain took the time and had the skilled workers to put in a better seat?

Rod, I think in many cases it is a marketing ploy. Also I think "close contact" means different things to different people. Some of it goes back to the day of the big skirted show saddles, and heavy plugged skirts. Add a full stirrup leather, lined fenders, and thick pad and you do have to make an effort to hit the horse. I also think it is a response to the way ground seats are/were put in a lot of production saddles. They use a fiberglass strainer that is exactly the same each time. They use clicked out and lightly skived buildups and each seat is the same as the next. On a spready tree and leaving the buildups full to the bottom of the bars just makes a wider seat. You used to see a lot of western pleasure riders with their feet braced out, and they are sitting pretty straight and shoulders back. Made for a nice picture, but getting a leg on the horse was pretty tough. When they tried to ride that same saddle/way for a reining horse - didn't work. They needed something narrower and less bulky under and in front of the leg. To a lot of cutter/cowhorse people, close contact may mean sitting closer to the horse now. Usually these saddles may have the seat right on the strainer. Thin flexible fenders, half leathers, and a narrower seat from a narrower bar pattern, thinner bars, and minimal groundwork down the bars. I wish I had one of those old Billy Cook cutters from the early 80s to dissect. They were like riding a barrel. I am not sure if the bars were flatter and wider, or if it was a ground seat issue, You were beating your backside, and splitting your hips with a hard stop. Some of this probably has to do with the evolution of the horse and changing bar patterns. We have gone from the flatter-backed old-style horses to the narrower ones. Seems like the majority of the Doc Bar influenced horses are narrower than the old Hollywold Gold and Poco Bueno breeding. Regarding the narrower bars. One thing I found. I ordered a couple trees from a supplier. Both Wades, one was a for a woman. At least some of their trees go into a Wade targeted for women, and this was the tree I got. The overall difference in wdth measured straight down from the top was about 1/2" narrower. Each bar was 1/2" narrower measured across the narrowest point, but the angle minimized the effect. Is that 1/2" narrower measurement significant enough to be noticeable? Don't know. I also am not sure about how thin is too thin. Probably not a factor until you break one. Like Blake responded on the cutting tree pics I posted, some of these break in the stirrup slot area, Probably more from stress of the bridging and unsupported weight of the stirrup leathers than scored rawhide. I am pretty sure that thin bars and throwing a 1" pad on with a top blanket is self-defeating. My thoughts would be thicker bars that really fit and a thinner pad would give a better result.

Vandy and Luke, Welcome to this forum. For those who have not been in the shop or dealt with Sheridan Leather Outfitters, they are one of the good suppliers out there. They sponsor a social get-together/BBQ during the Sheridan leather show. They stock a lot of exotic leathers, and have a large line of leather conditioners and hard to find things like SS nails in several varieties. They have a full line of saddle hardware and buckles. Tools by Barry King, J Cook, and a good guy named Bob Douglas. Good people to deal with.

To carry this thread over from another section.... A few observations I have with some saddles being promoted as "close contact" western saddles. Skirt shape - a lot of these saddles, especially the western pleasure saddles have cut-outs of varying degrees and shapes under the fender. My thoughts are that on at least some of these, the cut-out makes little difference. the width of the horse determines how far in my legs hang somewhat. It is above my knee somewhat in an area I can't bend inward anyway. Some of these have a dee ring rigging (bulky silver clad rings) on the skirts and when wrapped with the latigo can be a barrier to free forward swing of the leathers. Others are skirt rigged with "J" rings that are riveted into the skirts. Ground seat - Some of these are not much more than a narrower ground seat. Some of the saddles shaped specifically for women or the close-contact models have a narrower pinched ground seat. The ground work is tapered out onto the bars higher, rather the maker's normal seats that carry the ground work down to the bottom bar edge. Also the ground work on top of the channel may be thinner than normal, sitting you closer to the bars. A lot of the cutting saddles are like this - a one or two layer buildup in front, and nothing over the strainer but the seat. If the bars are like the cutting tree I showed, and are a good inch plus off the horse, the bars themselves negate getting you closer to the horse with a thinner seat on top. They need to be closer on the bottom to start with. Trees - First off the tree needs to fit the horse. Too wide and it is closer to the horse, but probably riding downhill. Too narrow and it is sitting higher than it should off the horse. Some tree makers have bar patterns that are narrower through the "waist" of the tree than their normal. The bar width might be up to 1" narrower. since the bars are set at an angle, the total reduction is a bit less than the reduced bar width, viewed from the top. Again, is that reduction in width in an area the rider can notice? Seat leather - Some of these show and roping saddles have lined the seat jockeys pretty heavily. Adding a liner of 10 oz leather under a 16 oz seat jockey is not conducive to closer contact. It is one thing to hang out to the right throwing a rope, another to go around a ring showing a pleasure horse. Cutting out a skirt, and having 26 oz edges on the seat jockey are probably self defeating. I have gauged a roping saddle with 28 oz seat jocky edges, 32 oz rear jockey, double plugged skirts at 34, and flanky torn 10 oz rigging leather. The rigging blew out while the horse was tied to the fence, not to a calf. Pads - Bulky pads are another issue, and there are close contact cut-out pads too. Just because it is an inch thick but has a cut-out, seems like it raises you up that high and away at the same time. Does anyone else have any thoughts on what they see or do to make a rider closer to the horse?

I had a couple off list emails regarding making the beveler. This is NOT the same as the concave bevelers from Ellis or others. The curves on their stamps are not as sharp. You need a sharp curve to match the radius of the rope. The stamp also has to be wider than the curve, to avoid chatter marks, they have to overlap the previous impression. The reason I chose a Tandy beveler was simple, I had some extras to play with and they are inexpensive. Basically grind the proper curve, and "point" the corners a bit to fit into the impression. I polished it up on a wire wheel to soften the edges after grinding. I have made similar modifications on crowner stamps by grinding back the corners and rounding them to steep bevel scallops on flowers and leaves. Bevels on ropes or scalloped flowers and leaves can sure be done with narrow bevelers and walking them around each curve. This gives me the same effect with one hit, and improves efficiency. One other point, the wider bevelers need to be hit pretty level. The example piece I did was on some scrap last night, after a full day of beating patterns. You can see edge marks of the beveler on some impressions where I did not hit square. On a real pice, clean the marks up.

Pete, Because of the stamp design, it only slants that way. If you try to go the other slant, the "points" stick out. No left twist stamps available that I know of. (BTW - another of Don King's contributions was being one of, if not the first, to develop left twist ropes for left handed team ropers). To line this stamp up, I prefer to stamp with the guide line vertically and go away from myself. I can visualize the angles better that way. If I have to go horizontal I go right to left. I always want to see the previous impression to line up against. If I go the other way, my hand holding the stamp tends to cover it a bit.

Steve, Welcome to the forum Excellent work, thanks for sharing it with us. I imagine he probably will remember this birthday present, beats a pocket knife, shirt, or power tool any day.

Rod and Denise, The front is pretty interesting. The front of the seat tucks in under that tab on the front jockey. The strings go throught the seat front and front jockey before the latigo carrier and conchos. The front jockey is tacked underneath over top of the front front rigging. Kind of a cool look. It trails back underneath so the stirrup leather rides over the top of it and doesn't butt into it. The EZ dees were a Hamley deal, patented in about 1915-1920. They seemed to be pretty popular back in the day, and I can't recall a bronc saddle that doesn't have them. Kind of like the big ring riggings, some of the old-timers ran their stirrup leathers through the ring to bind them forward. Probably forward of the latigo lump for sure. I am kind of a fan of not having skirt underneath my latigos. Two schools of thought. One is that the skirts protect and distribute pressure of the latigo and ring over a larger area. My thought is that eventually that lump presses through, the edge of the skirt is putting pressure on the horse's side where the latigo crosses it, and it lays up higher to catch my stirrup leathers or buckles. Depends on what a customer likes, but my preference is cut-outs or dropped riggings. Interests me that one some of the "close contact" skirts the riggings lay on the skirts, but the cutout is under the rider's leg. Good theory, but where the cutout ends on a lot of riders is about 2/3 of the way down the femur. I don't have a joint there that would allow me to take advantage of that cutout. It could come down another 3 inches, and I would still be just as much in contact with my horse. If you can get closer contact there, then the front rigging is a pretty good fence to get over to get your legs up forward. Selling a concept and not a reality. There is enough wood, leather and pad between me and the horse from the knee up that I am not sure he knows that I have contact above the knee, I use my lower leg for cueing and contact. Probably need a new thread for close contact huh?

Pete, Yep, I do a lot of these. Not that hard to master, but a couple tips. First off I use a scribe line for a border. I don't like a cutline, and want my ropes to look like a rope laying there on the ground, not pushed into the mud. I want it to stand up. I bevel the edges of the pattern. To bevel I took an off-the-rack Tandy beveler and ground out a curve on the face to match the curve of the rope stamp. I used a Dremel with the tapered stone to fit the curve. I have three bevelers for the different rope stamps I have. I also had Barry King make me three custom sizes of his "leaf cutter" stamps that match these curves. Makes beveling leaves and flowers a snap when I use them to cut the pattern. Another story. I lay out the border, and stamp the rope in at the angle shown. I eyeball it, and couldn't tell you an angle. I then go through and match the curve in the beveler to the curve in the rope. It also cleans up an impression if one of the ropes gets a little out of line. The example is exaggerated with the beveling, but you get the idea. I also showed I do a 90 degree corner. Probably at least half of what I do has this border. I like this style of rope stamp. I haven't seen the new TLF ones live, but the impressions and examples don't look like they are what I would like.

I recently restored my great grandfather's saddle back to as close to original as possible. My great grandfather fed a lot of cattle in southeast South Dakota, and bought feeders from Montana. They would load them at Miles City and ship them. When fed out, he sold them at the terminal markets, usually Chicago. In the early 30s he asked that they send a ranch horse with a load of cattle. The horse came off the train saddled with this Duhamel. The horse was always pretty broncy, and the joke was either the cowboy was glad to lose the horse, or sad to lose the saddle. This saddle has been handed down, and my son made the 5th generation to use it at some point. Duhamels has a general supply type store in Rapid City, with a full saddle shop. They made saddles under their name from 1909 into the 50s. They never serial numbered a saddle, but stamped the tree style on the latigo keeper. They use leather from Hawaiian hides (no grubs), but no mention of the tannery. Their trees came from Ruwart of Denver and Newton Bros of Vernal UT. Reported that both the Newton bothers were blind, but made great trees. One maker recalled that the 106 saddle was made on the Ellensburg tree, and was popular into the 30s. They called the stamp pattern an acorn as a few other old catalogs did, but most shops called it a shell border. These saddles were 3/4 single rigged with EZ dees. This saddle had undergone some changes. AlRay buckles were added later, and I had made some short fenders/leathers for my son when he was younger. I took the AlRays off and and laced the leathers. The stirrups are some brassbound oxbounds I found in the rafters of the hayloft before the buildings were sold. I took the stringwrap off the horn, and the underlying leather is pretty good. Normally I don't like to reline restorations, but the sheepskin was rotten and there was insect damage. Other than the strings, lining, and rope strap, everything is pretty much original. I like to use Hide Rejuventor on these. It seems to condition without getting too oily, waxy, or shiny. I usually just knock the crust off the hardware, and let the age it attained show through. I left the latigo carrier and the baling wire fix on it. It still shows the 106 stamp. For disply saddles, like in a living room, wooden quilt racks work well. Put a blanket over it and it works well. Less expensive than a furniture grade saddle rack.

I use my heavy maul for setting rivets, driving punches, and that sort of thing. I use my 2# maul for the bigger block stamps. Most of my stamping is with a 1# maul, and the bigger baskets and medium blocks with a 1-1/2# maul. I could probably justify a 12 oz maul at some point.

Luke, Sorry for the confusion. The blades from Bob Douglas are for the draw gauges, not the strap cutters. I expect someone could order the blades directly from Bill Buchmann, but I don't have any contact info for him. Bob usually has something or another I have been looking to upgrade, so it was just easier to order through him. Bob's number is (307) 737-2222. If you hve trouble reaching him, his daughter Vandy owns Sheridan Leather Outfitters. She might have them too, or can tell you when Bob might be home. For the strap cutters, I usually use injector razor blades once I have used up the blades that come with it.

Pete, The "Original" strap cutter may have the word original burned into the tp of the handle. They may also have "The Strap Cutter". Some of them are on ebay as new in package. They can be bought at some of the independent leathercraft dealers. They have moved around a bit. I have one marked from Palo Alto, CA, and I know they made them down the road in Stockton for awhile. The new ones from TLF have no makers markings on them. Two of the new ones were OK, the others weren't. A guy could shim them to guide OK. They just didn't track the way they came. I have the same trouble with a no-name draw gauge. I just need to let it sit out this winter and rust up, then sell it as "vintage" next spring.

At least on Rod's trees, Sheridan Leather Outfitters has a drawing from interested customers when trees come in. They pull your name out of the hat, and you have first opportunity to buy the tree. I got one that way a couple months ago. It was what I would have ordered, so it worked out. I agree with Darcy that Bowdens are probably the most consistant and better quality of the factory trees. I have had some problems with Hadlock&Fox, but they have been bought and moved since then. Superior is not the same Superior that was in Colorado. Enough said there. Other sources to consider that are a step up. Sonny Felkins in Monticello UT and Timberline in Vernal UT are priced a little higher than the factories, but in my hands generally have a better product. My last Timberline was about $250-260, and the last from Sonny Felkins was $325 last fall. Bar and swell patterns seemed to be really close to each other.

Regarding the roller cutters. use them all the time. They also do well with pinking blades. I cut up to skirting leather with no problems with the 45 mm blades. Sometimes they wont cut all the way through 16 oz if they are riding on a metal straight edge, but the partial thickness cut will guide the roller on a second pass without the straightedge, or use a round knife to complete the cut. Now the wooden strap cutters - another story. I have two of the old maple ones made by the "Original" maker. They work well and track good. I bought a few from TLF from another source - feels like pine? They had them on special, and I figured I could just leave them set up for common widths. The blade slots on 2 were not parallel with the handle. One tracked in and one tracked out. Something to check for. I have a couple of nice older draw gauges - an old cavalry 6" Osborne, and a wood insert handle 4" Osborne. I like them. I got some blades from Bob Douglas for both. The blades were made by Bill Buchmann. They are the real deal. Sharp and hold an edge for me better than the Osborne blades. Draw guages demand respect, but the exposed blade can be started in a cut line in the middle that the protected strap cutter can't.

I got to look some more stuff up. On the Wade tree, a pretty good little history of it is at www.cowboyshowcase.com/wade_saddle.htm. Pretty well jibes with what I recalled from a conversation with him quite a few years ago. Interesting they wanted to call it a "Dorrance" and he wanted it called a "Cliff Wade". I didn't know Tom very well, but that fits with what a lot of people say about him. I did find out that the Meanea repair horn was patented in the 1880s also. Darcy, that is a cool saddle. Thanks for posting the pictures. Interesting leaves. A lot of the Visalia leaves don't have a center stem. They had a single cut line, double beveled, and the veiners radiated out of that. Someone could probably almost tell the stamper by that. Any closer idea of the age? Walker died before 1900, but they used the name stamp off and on through the years. I saw one today seat stamped with the DEWalker, and stamped with the SF mark on the cantle back along with the serial number. That seems to be pretty common. The only problem on this particular saddle, they had a shoe repair guy cut about 1-1/2" off the back of the skirts to shorten them up a few years ago. I only have one of the Visalia catalogs, a reprint from 1938. They show a model #858. They call it the "Guadalajara" with a short post horn, so they were putting the post on the 3-B at least before that. Griff Durham could probably pin things down pretty close.

Cowboygear, In short - Hamleys made the second one and an improved third one. Cliff Wade was a neighbor of the Dorrances in Oregon. Cliff had a saddle that his dad brought from somewhere else. Tom Dorrance liked it, and had Hamleys copy it. He didn't like the first one they made, and had them redo the tree a couple years later. I think he said this was late 30s/early 40s as he remembered. The Wade has gone through a lot of changes since then. I don't know of anyone who is credited with making Cliff Wade's dad's original saddle. Regarding the metal/wood horns. Wood horns were the norm in original trees. They were not always the post horns like the mexican saddles, but a more shaped horn that was prone to breakage. I think I read that Meanea (of Cheyenne roll fame) patented a metal repair horn that bolted over the broken stump and was sold as a repair horn in the 1880s. Within a few years, the metal horns were the norm, either polished and left plain or leather covered. Anybody feel free to correct me, I am going off a conversation and memory.