oltoot

That looks like an anvil and a pretty good one at that. I say that because of the shape and condition of the horn. I would expect it to weigh ~70# and that it began life as a portable horseshoeing anvil. I have a piece of rail with a horn turned on a lathe that is 24" overall that I keep on my bench. I made a shoeing anvil by taking 2 pieces of rail 18" and flipping one, welding them together and cutting out the web on one to make a horn I cut a few holes to give me places to make various bends, made a liteweight but sturdy stand and shaped shoes with it for many years. The point of that was that rail is good steel and if you can make things, it is a great material to work with. Because of the web and solid base you can achieve things that are durable and relatively lite weight when compared to anvils or ASOs and the base results in a large surface area to weight ratio if you use it "upside down"

That said, what you have looks OK. Use a large creaser aka tickler to literally push the leather into absolute, uniform line. In the future you can help yourself out if you will put it up 'rough' and mark the top of the cantle with a scratch awl and then before gluing back take a large French edger and skive parallel to your mark about 1 1/2" either side and at this point, check the whole piece, especially the 1 1/2 or so that will be inside the CB when you get it all put together and skive wherever it is a little thick. This will make the process of arriving at a smooth, balanced look much easier. And the grooving along the C top will establish a good, even, minimal line for the fit at the top and for your sewing path when you get done. And remember, you will not want it to fit up snug around the top as you are going to coach 2 more pieces into alignment there resulting in a definite groove which you will eventually have 5 layers to sew through. It looks to me like what you have is useable and pursuing it further will just take more time and leather. I earlier said order 3 sides and relax but you should stop there as 4 would only be necessary for some very exotic approaches.

My guess is that dye is not the culprit but that molding has produced a burnished look to the part that is molded. I would try some form of something that burnishes the area outside. I would use my glass slicker. as to observed differences in glue areas, most glues either seal up or open wide areas that end up taking a finish differently or not at all

The bear hide is personal experience, the dog somebody gave me at first and tales from Alaska. I must confess that I had a little brush with the heebie jeebies when I learned the hide was a whole dog hide and not a piece of another bear but the results of the hoops I put it through can not be ignored, BTW, I learned that there is a very small black market in 'somebody else's' dog hide to make jesses and a few other items for falconers. It reminded me a little of us kids getting super cute kids to raise and when the time came to butcher them a frantic musical chairs kind of thing emerged where you 'sold' your little pal to some one else and in turn bought somebody elses to butcher. A man with a family pet pig tried to initiate a similar mechanism but too much money or value was involved and he was faced with having to hire someone to leave with a pig and return with packages.

And it didn't break my heart when they didn't come back. Some were held together by that dertitus and washing them 'killed' them

Well, it depends. You can consider absolutes like fat is bad and the best rawhide comes from a cow that starved to death, but most of us are faced with the question to take a hide or not with little time grade the opportunity. Now then, whenever an animal with its hide intact makes itself available?? Now then, all animal hides are made up of layers, outside in, splitting weakens the hide so if you have access to a calf skin or goat skin and most of the animal's entire hide will yield the thickness of string you desire, that will be better than a grown animal split down to that thin. In terms of tough strong, bears and dogs win the top but are not commonly available, Then comes horses, actually horse's bellys. To get the best rawhide, the horse should be skinned from the top down so that the belly leather is in one piece instead of two and cow rawhide ends up what most of us are offered. Well then you say most rawhide that is used is marginal, at best and raising the bar significantly involves cultural norms and all sorts of tough nuts to crack and you would be right but we labor on at the very tail end of the supply chain and do the best we can which can be pretty good, thank goodness even poor rawhide is pretty good stuff when matched with a compatible use.

It is well said that if you find yourself in hole the first thing to do is stop digging but I will take another try anyhow. The way that you have planned things will definitely eliminate some troubling effects from tooling. Another tip. I have started tooling my rigging pieces after gluing up the whole business and have eliminated stretching as a pest with this approach. That has been particularly helpful for basket stamping and definite borders. And the old man who schooled me before I got to be the old man in the equation settled that one for all for me when he asked "if you make your ground seat to accommodate 2 1/2 stirrup leathers you'd better put a sign on it somewhere to the effect 2 1/2 forever. Somebody down the road might have a perfectly good reason to want 3" leathers and you need to warn them that that 1/2" will be very hard fought!" So i put 2 1/2 leathers on all my saddles including the ones that I and family members have used and I make my stirrup slots to accommodate 3" leathers. Now back to the 'hole'! I'll start with a clearly stated objective and that would be for the finished product to have a comfortable seat as close to that pocket between a horse's rib cage and shoulder muscle. Note that on a bareback horse it is nearly impossible to sit anywhere else. And as close as possible have this lowest part, the sweet spot, or any of its pet names be straight above where the stirrups will naturally hang when the pressure is off. A test to impose on any saddle would be, If I relax and bear a lot of the 'bounce' between the balls of my feet and my upper leg where do I end up?" If just right isn't the answer some things need changing? For our purpose we'll find out what takes miles and what can be built in from the start. The analysis starts with the tree bars and their points of attachment to the cantle. Next comes the rawhide cover, close fitting leaving that joint and others a little 'extreme' and pass it on to the the ground seatmaking a point to be definitely dealt with. I must confess up front that I'm not a fan of the all leather ground seat and use 22 ga galvinized for my strainers and have had no negative feedback. So, the tin doesn't really get much attention in the sweet spot, but it does allow that to persist as pieces are added. First comes the large cover which will begin the process of getting the sweet spot definitely a part of the design. In all cases this one should go beyond the sweet spot a little and up the cantle. This piece and the next, I put on wet with contact cement flesh side up I have skived the edges that will be called on to join seamlessly into the tree and left any other skiving to come where the piece needs it, pushing them tight into the various places that I will want to soften an abrupt curve and end up with all the sharp corners covered with a layer of soft, even a bit spongy leather. Then with the piece wet I skive it to shape with Tandy skivers and injector razor blades, in some cases, it looks like I've skived the whole thing away except for the front end and that's the way it ends, by design. It gets set under a fan to speed the process along. I would hate to try to accomplish this with smaller, feather edged pieces; next comes the middle piece with it's job is to try to set the stage for the final it will remain full thickness in the middle and in the area of the hand hole. When this piece is skived and dried, the sweet spot should be apparent with a few unwanted angles or corners still not yet softened. In some cases, you may require an extra piece in front. The top ground seat piece I put on wet and stretch it with lasting pincers across front part of the seat. For this piece I use a non-sagging wood glue so that when I get the top piece in place I can be sure that it will be thoroughly stuck. The cantle filling portion of the top piece is folded forward, out of the way until you get the glue rubbed back and you have a line, glued and unglued. You then put that cantle cover in place with contact cement, bouncing liberally as you go so that it is what you need it to be: definition of the seat. You should have the sweet spot but maybe some bumps or lumps that you don't what, wait till later. This gets put under the fan and must get bone dry and the glue cured. Now wet it thoroughly again. You shouldn't disturb that connection layer but you have the entire seat before you and you wield the power to make it great. Skive, skive, skive until you get it right. The place where it drops off the bars should be the low point, then build a definite but subtle groove from the sweet spot down. Behind the handhole, behind the stirrup leather slot there are some definite needs for material to equal a certain thickness. It helps me to stick a hole with an awl up where these places will be and when it's done more time under the fan. Then you can trim the top piece around the bars and nail it down along the edges of the bars and at the bottom end of stirrup leather slots which you could have cut while it was still wet. save the plugs for a bit. Now, you will see that sweet groove as it leaves the tree and design your rigging pieces to enhance that feature. And when fitting the seat leather it should contribute to the desired effect. A seat 'pre broken in' and there for all to see And most sadly, soon forget. But if it isn't there at all levels, that they will remember and broadcast. And rigging pieces don't need to be particularly strong if you've placed and secured the rigging plates to receive pressure from the right spot at what amounts to a nearly straight pull. BTW I put a 22 ga flap around the rigging plates and fold it up in place, putting the plugs inside the flap and then drill a couple of holes and set a #8 rivit. I have made thick as the plate and its flap and when I've finished sewing the sheepskin I'll set a couple of #8's at the outside edge of the leather bars that are in there so rigging is going to be secure.

Work on pattern drawing and adaptation. To be 'balanced' each one of the three flowers should be a little different size so they 'fit', then accompany that with appropriate stem sizing so each one looks like it 'belongs' there. IMHO

Patch machines will do lotsa things but I would certainly not advise that one would make a best first machine unless you have a huge potential customer base that uses horse blankets and would keep a lot of blankets for a longer life if there was someplace that would repair them. And since most laundramats won't allow them to be washed in their machines, another possible investment would be in a washing machine to wash them in and you could easily specify that you would only patch blankets that were clean and a few posters around and watch them line up at the door or at least that's what somebody told me when they wanted to sell me their 29k70 and Wasco commercial washing machine.

This certainly illustrates that there are few standards in the field of saddlemaking. The front discussion is sort of a recap of the history of tanning, changes in cattle and thus leather and the spirit of challenge and the oneupsmanship that drives the male dominated field. All that said, here's another view on the fork covering world. I tried to remember the times that I have had a customer request a particular mode and the only times I could remember someone being specific was about a half dozen who have specified laced swells and some have said no lacing at the back of the horn. I have covered Bowman type fronts,Modified Assns, Buster Welch's and swell forks of 12" and less without welts. My self imposed breaking point is when I must use too light or spongy leather, then use a welt to maintain personally imposed standards. Welting method once decision is made to welt: I was first taught to do folded, hand sewn welts, which amazingly was my welt of choice while I didn't have a stitcher. The same old man that had showed me the hand sewn, folded welts also employed a machine sewn, single ply welt and I would go that way for a long time after I got a stitcher (Union Lock). Lately I have been using a machine sewn, folded welt with great succes. That's my story and I'm sticken to it. Yes and no to the would you charge more ? I am of the diehard breed that votes for simplicity and not specificity. I have noticed that just about everything would be more than we commonly allocate to it if we were to start keeping track of all that kind of thing. Personally, I try to keep the price of the big ticket items in $50 increments, and try to maximize responding to requests for something that differs from the norm as included but knowing that some will end up as add ons. Pricing leather work is a pretty complex issue. Consider the world of braiding, when we make the first few items for sale, we don't usually say that we will charge the most for an item when we are still experimenting with different approaches to string making, twisted vs braided cores, managing rawhide readiness etc and plan on reducing the price once preliminary hurdles are overcome and we have received the recognition and endorsement of our peers. And then there is the working, using gear vs museum or collector quality dilemma. I am personally greatful for the cowboy mentality which feels and even proclaims that life is too short to work with ugly tack, I second that motion vigorously even though I get a special discount. I'd like to think that I would feel that way even if I didn't get the special discount rate. And through it all long live wades.

First a too late question; Considering the addage "happy wife, happy life" why not start off with a better tree? Then consider making that top piece into two pieces, separated, not overlapping by about 2 1/2 inches which ends up being the bottom of the 'groove' that is the bottom or center of the seat at rest. Requires coordination of rigging, ground seat, skirt, seat leather to make all meet the objective of a comfortable seat with no break in time required; calls for plugging to make sure that you have long, smooth slopes to minimize wear and DO NOTdome rivits.

My story is kinda like dirtclod's. I learned on a Landis 16, then spent several years on a Campbell lease machine, then went through a period of trading, fixing, frustration. I grew tired of working on sewing machines and bought a Union Lock and a Singer 211G ('75) and haven't worried much since. There was a time when I almost bought a 441 clone, to be able to work with webbing, etc. But I didn't and now I don't have one and the world is still turning outside my door! A little more info on the splitter would be nice, I coulda put almost any kind to some use if the blade was still good and straight. Now to the finisher. Since you already have one, I would think about keeping it which is not to say that everybody who doesn't have one should go find one and buy it. Look at a picture of the new Cobra burnisher and think steroids. Larger diameter sanding wheel(s), burnishing wheels, easy enough to make, think about using the finisher like a lathe to make it's own burnishing wheels. The few I have seen are tinkerer's dreams with all sorts of things to try. IMHO

Quality Mfg 435-587-5070 Monticello, Utah Every tree is custom Timberline posts on this forum

Part of the finished 'look' is in the shape of the breast collar and whether or not it has a ring in the center, but all of that said and generally speaking, the higher the better for dees while maintaining firm contact with the tree. Breast Collars that mimic "OL Time" Martingales in shape are the best but not the only IMHO. Now for a parting shot; If the hold back from Collar to main cinch is not adjusted to be snug, it wont matter much how it's shaped or where it attaches. The saddle and collar will move until they successfully find a point of balance and that may very well not be where it ought to be, if you start out with one of your three points in this three point system is significantly looser than the rest.

Si, que lastima.

Use a piece of heavy strap or skirting, rounded by edging. Either leave it wide enough to stick out from your rolled leather and provide for the at first stitch line to be about in the middle of the 'round' which will be finished to round by edging and or sanding or cut it down to fit inside and be used just like a piece of rope would.

BWBR would be OK and better than Bowman IMHO. My reason for Little Wonder is that the undercut is straight from higher extreme point rather than rounded so seat can 'infringe' on the area of swell-bar contact instead of being forced behind. Looked at from another way, BWBR would offer a little bit more surface area to brace against if that were to be desired (which it would be for lots of uses) but not for 'sweetheart appreciation' which is what I supposed we were commenting on. In the interest of fairness I must reveal that I have a tree pattern called "Sweetwater" with Quality which is a thicker LW, with a squared out gullet so here in Wyoming you can get your gloved hand inside the larger hand hole that results. My business runs in cycles and for awhile, Sweetwaters will comprise +/- 60% of orders then will come a Wade wave which seems to be what we are riding now. I have also used BWBR and BW Roper fronts when the trend is for a 'Modified Association" I have been with Sonny at Quality for some +/- 40 years. I appreciate the passion that he gets in to work with, always looking for the correct mix of function and value. BTW, he takes special pride in and I take special note of the sewing of the rawhide covers. I feel like a criminal of sorts covering his trees up with leather, they're so pretty as they come.

Unfortunately you wont have the luxury of picking over a lot of hides to get select pieces from so you will end up using things a little heavier than 'ideal'. So select for firmness, not weight for fenders, stirrup leathers. AND if you are lucky, those pieces can do fine at 13oz. Skirt rig would be the best pick for you. Consider this: Front and back riggings separate pieces with back rigging designed to replace separate jockey with a visible, complete bar pocket. Here is a case where skirt plugging were really indicated and skirt proper could be pretty light, say 10oz. Leave a space that is just skirt between back of front and front of back rigging and will also turn into a close contact "groove". Now some may jump on this with a venom that should be reserved for defending against invading aliens saying, even shouting that this will wear and need repair sooner. Now this criticism will be true to this degree. I predict that with your projected use of this rig, it will show wear in ~ 25 instead of 35 years. What is a happy wife worth and mores the point when its us that gets to make the smiles? BTW, rememember to use plugs to create long, smooth surfaces and puuleeze dont 'dome' the rivits. AND this final note though it may be too late: why not use a better tree with a Little Wonder front end and cutting horse bars for this very special project. Oh yeah and brush up on your carving.

If you can find it, try Lexol nf. won't darken and with any oil, try having your leather a little damp when you oil. Needs to be evenly moist, actually cased is about right

All the Saddlemakers I've known dye then oil, then topcote then then buff.

Needle, needle, tension, tension

This shows the role this and other targeted, well monitored forums can play. Lots of opportunity to experience multiple opinions. As to the boat anchor comment, we could interpret that as a negative against 16s Am I right on that? Myself, I learned on a 16 and had I been able find one when I struck out on my own, I wouldn't have looked any further. As it was that was when Union Locks were among the very few being manufactured new (parts, accessories readily available) so that's where I stopped looking 40 years ago and today 441 clones might be where I was shopping. But I don't need to look anymore and am I ever glad of that!

After 'wasting' years snooping, trading, fixing, etc. if I had it to do over I would just keep on saving so I could start 'right' the first time. However if you enjoy tinkering with machinery and turning somebody else's trash into a treasure, don't deprive yourself of the experience of sorting through a lot of choices. Nostalgia aside, another choice remains for you to make: Heavy duty single needle such as Cowboy, Cobra, Techsew, or Artisan versions of 441 or a needle and awl machine like a Union Lock, Campbell, or completely rebuilt Landis #3 or #16, etc. Now then, do I have a clear recommendation to make? Yes, sort of. Given the ready availability of parts, accessories, service and initial get in cost, I would opt for one of the 441 clones even though I have and love a Union Lock. I wouldn't trade straight across but I already have mine and I'm through searching. Plus, I'm 70+ so I can say do as I say, not as I did (and would do again). Either way, best of luck to ya!!

If you had gotten to use it for awhile, perhaps you would figure out why that phase didn't last too long and makers were encouraged to develop first separate seat jockeys first brass nailed then sewn across the top. Pretty quick, too, makers started experimenting with making seat and jockeys one piece. Stayed at 8 button stage for awhile with loop seat, then leaving the loop seat stage behind and soon to the present day approach to seat/ground seat construction. Modern construction is the result of this trial and error process and continual discovery of 'better' ways to do things. Changes in tanning played a role, too starting with the early 1800's ubiquitous small tanneries to consolidation and getting 'better' and larger. The developing range cattle industry and post civil war inter regional mobility spread ideas around. Remember that the internet and getting to look at everything that is going on is only a few decades old. Changes in horse conformation were an important influence on rigging types. While saddles aint rocket science there is more to them than fallin off a log! Love to study and imagine how I would have acted/reacted to different times, trends, etc.

Lost popularity in West Texas because the knot used up nearly 10 inches of rein length and as long latigo hides got scarcer!