Big Sioux Saddlery

Just exactly like Wiz says. Absolutely loved my Randall. There's no way a closed needle machine can even come close to the stitch. And you can sew super close. But like Wiz says, much longer learning curve, plus you either have to be a mechanic to keep them sewing, or be on pretty good terms with one. I have a Cowboy 4500, and it's ok, but even my old Landis 1 makes a better looking stitch on some things.

Actually, Thenrie, the saddle doesn't look that bad. Most of the repairs needed are general repairs that any saddle will need if used hard and long enough. Like putting tires on a car and doing an engine overhaul. This is a good saddle for you to practice on; you can learn a lot by taking good saddles apart. You are probably right about the saddle being of limited collectible value, since the fenders aren't original. Nonetheless, it is still worth putting your time and money into as a using rig. Since this IS a using rig, rather than a collector piece, I would be tempted to get rid of the Al Ray buckles and go with vertical holes on a different buckle of your choice. I know many people don't like the Blevins, for varied reasons, but they beat all the heck out of the Al Rays. Next one I build for myself is going to have laced stirrup leathers. Which might never happen, beings as I drive draft horses 99% more of the time than I ride a saddle horse. Good luck and keep us informed.

Fallis Balanced Ride. I think they have a website. Company is still in business. Some like them, some don't, but they aren't junk saddles. I don't know what to tell you it's worth, but I do have a client that recently bought a new one. It was plain and I think he paid in the $2200-$2400 range. Yours looks to be in decent shape. I would call the company and ask their advice on what it's worth. Good luck.

12/14 is not heavy enough for a usin' saddle. If the old leathers don't look that heavy, it could be because they are worn and stretched thin. If this saddle is going to get used, I would go with the heavier leathers and of course, pre-stretch and slick them down. They will not appear as heavy after the preparation and edging. Width makes less of a difference than thickness in stirrup leathers, as they usually tear from the holes outward. A word on restoring these old collectible saddles: Make sure you ask questions if you're not sure what you're doing. I cringe when I see the collectible value ruined by someone who re-lined the skirts on a saddle and missed every hole when they stitched them and put the saddle back together with ring shank pole barn spikes. I got an old E.C. Lee saddle in yesterday that looked pretty fair at first glance, but someone really did a number on it "restoring" it. Makes me want to cry.

Just like Dirtclod says. It's going to be a trial and error process. I've made quite a bit of pony stuff, and honestly, almost every job is a custom job in that I always ended up making a new pattern anyway because what I had already wasn't quite right. Ponies come in as many (if not more) size and shape variations as full size horses, so get your poster board and tape and tape measure and go to work.

I have cut parts for quite a few saddles on the floor! My knees are starting to give me some trouble the last couple years, so I don't spend any more time on the floor than I have to anymore. At times I would have more floor space in my house than the table or floor in my shop, and I'd lay out several sides at once to juggle the patterns around. I just kept a cutting board under where I was cutting. Most of it was rough cutting anyway and I'd later cut to size on my cutting table. If you're not picky about dye stains on the floor of your shop, there's no reason you can't do that there as well.

If you are wanting to make English tack, you may have a bit of a problem with the Cowboy. I have a 4500, and for the most part, I like it. But of all the machines I have and have ever used, this machine loses the race for being able to sew close. The foot is just too wide, even using the left or right toe instead of the standard harness foot. My all time favorite was a Randall. I needed very little room to sew between a row of spots and the edge of the leather. It was almost unbelievable to look at the finished product and know that I had sewn after the spots had been set, and not before. Girths, halters and bags won't be a problem on the Cowboy, but English bridles and browbands are typically pretty fine, and I'd bet you'll have trouble. The bridles are often sewn by hand anyway on the high end stuff. I'd be interested myself to hear from anyone making English tack and what they sew on.

Use leather tanned in the US, and don't be fooled by the term "North American" hides. That can mean Mexico. Although the quality has improved in recent years, I have yet to see leather tanned in Mexico or South America that equals leather tanned domestically. I know just what you mean; the leather works up grayish, muddy, or dirty looking. The more you try to improve it, the worse it looks. Stick with Hermann Oak or Wickett and Craig for the look you want. Neither one of those leathers are perfect either, but it comes a lot closer. I don't know who was tanning some of the leather I've seen in harness that's between maybe 30 and 40 years old, maybe older, but there was some super stuff being made back then that nothing being made now even comes close to.

Are you looking for chrome tan or veg tan (the kind used for lining saddles)? I have a lot of scraps left from saddles. How big do you need the pieces to be? I live in SD and would gladly sell you some of my scrap at a reasonable price. Chrome tan I do not have.

Good advice from everyone above! Congrats on ordering the books, Keplerts, you will learn a lot. Customers will try any means possible to get your prices lower--that's just human nature. I do the same. If there's a good deal on a horse, I still offer less! Hold your ground and even if this is a hobby for you and your income comes from a day job, or a spouse that has a fantastic income, or whatever, figure your costs, your overhead, and what you want for a wage like you would if the leatherwork was your only source of income. Not only will you thank yourself in the long run, it is a good way to stay on friendly terms with your competitors. Everyone hates a guy who undercuts just to get business. You have a tough row to hoe being in the middle of Amish country. Find a way to offer better service or a better product than the Amish and charge accordingly. There's no way we can compete with them on price alone because of the differences in our lifestyles. However, much of the work I see come out of Amish shops is pretty sloppy, and they are known to cut corners on raw material quality. Granted, many times the customer doesn't know the difference; make it your job to educate them. Bdaz is right about the waste factor. It is higher than most people think. And, if you do end up utilizing your waste/scrap, and that's a big "if", then that's more money in your pocket, to invest in more machinery, buy more supplies, expand your work area, take your family on vacation, whatever. Best of luck to you!

Bruce, I could use one of those blades as well when you get them. Same story as woodentop. . . bought the tool but the blade was missing. Do you have any idea when you'll be getting these made or when you'll have them?

If the items pictured are typical of the size pieces you will be needing, I would think you would be able to purchase leather in a much less expensive manner than buying a whole side. Most shops generate more scrap than they can use, myself included, and these items would be a great use for that scrap! Nice work by the way for just having gotten started. I really like the barrette second picture down.

Congratulations on your purchase! I think you will enjoy it overall. It will speed things up immensely. There will be a bit of a learning curve of course. There was for me and I've been sewing on heavy stitchers for over 20 years. Main thing is practice on scrap before you attempt good work. Keep it oiled as someone else mentioned above. Starting your first stitch, keep tension on both top and bottom thread or you will have problems. And have fun!

Ok, I'll give you that one, I may be OCD but I did a little riveting job for a neighbor one time and wasn't going to charge him anything. He told me "Sharon, when the box is empty, you gotta buy more." He's right, and why should THAT come out of my wages? If you work for an auto parts store, would you give a customer, out of YOUR wages, some free merchandise? Essentially, I work for wages for my business. And if I'm not charging the customer somewhere, somehow, for everything that gets used, it comes out of my wages. It can be a separate line item on your invoice or you can chalk it up to overhead when you figure what your overhead costs are --and believe me you should be doing that. I'm in business to stay in business. Hobbyists have a little different take on this whole subject, but I don't do anything that any other business doesn't do. I drive a diesel pickup and when I take it in to get worked on, they damn sure charge for every paper towel, and it's not because they're OCD. I gotta get to work but I will check back with interest on this thread later. Have a great AND profitable day everyone!!

Bob Brenner's book "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle Maker or Leatherworker" should be required reading for anyone even contemplating selling handmade leather articles. Keplerts says that a 36" x 1.25 piece of bridle leather costs $1.60. Well I suck at math, but to me that means he paid $.035 per sq inch for his leather, or $5.12 per sq ft. Man, I want his supplier! There are a number of methods used to figure your leather cost, but you have to include the waste factor, the freight, add a percentage for profit margin, and all the goodies Bob talks about in his book. I break my cost down to the sq inch, or the oz, depending on how I'm buying. I will often actually weigh an odd shaped piece of leather to determine my leather cost in a particular project. We do the industry as a whole a huge disservice when we underprice our products. When we underprice our products, we give the customer the perception that we can and will work for squat. Not to pick on the Amish, but they are some of the worst. Now before someone jumps all over me about picking on the Amish, let me say that as a whole they are good people and I have Amish friends. But most of the small farm shops don't have a clue how to run a business. They price a snap that cost them $2.25 at $2.35 and think they made ten cents. It is sometimes that bad. People worry that they won't sell anything if they price too high. Nothing irritates me more when someone drives up to my shop in a $50,000 pickup and tells me I charge too much. If they don't want to pay my prices, I first make an attempt to explain why I charge what I do, and why it's worth it. I willing to spend less time on this than I used to. I'm not Walmart, and I'm not a not-for-profit entity. If they want cheap, they can drive the wheels off their brand new pickup to go find it. Let me tell you, I could go broke for one of two reasons: charging too much and running out of customers, or charging too little and not making enough to cover my expenses. I'd damn sure rather go broke for the first reason, especially when the people I work for, generally speaking, make a whole lot more than I do, with no investment. Keplerts says a half hour of his time is worth $7.50, which means an hour is worth $15. My overhead runs nearly that. I just can't say it enough, if you don't already have it, buy Bob's book. It will give you a whole new perspective. Keplerts, I'm not picking on you personally. You are simply convenient and you are the norm rather than the exception in our industry it seems. I'm not all that good at explaining things, and to put into this little post all of the info contained in Bob's book is impossible, but he is spot on with everything he says. Pete Gorrell also has a book on the subject. In fact, way back when I first started in business I spent about an hour on the phone with Pete and he explained to me the whole pricing thing. I thought to myself "There's no way I can do that around here." Well, I got tired of working for nothing for a few years, and finally came to realize these guys are right. If we all used a standardized system of pricing, our customers have no choice but to pay us what we're worth. I've become fond of saying "I'd rather they come to me because I'm good, than because I'm cheap." Why do YOU want your customers to come to you?

Buy another and keep that one solely for natural leather.

Camerius, please don't take my little experiment to mean that I am saying you are wrong! On the contrary; all it proved was that in the manner in which I sewed the sample, the left twist un-twisted and the right twist didn't. I do believe that given a different sequence of inserting the needles and completing the stitch may very well give different results. I try to be very careful in making generalizations that state one way is the only way and everything else is wrong. There are just too many variables in our type of work to say that one way is the only way. The older I get the more I realize this is true of many things in life:) Bill, I don't think it is so much what the handler does with the thread in his hands, as it is the way the thread passes through the hole and draws tight over the other thread that makes the difference. I'm still not sure what exactly it is at which point that affects the twist, but it's the method and sequence. A left handed stitcher (help me out here lefties) would do things in reverse possibly than a right handed person, hence the theory that a leftie needs left twist. And I don't always sew in the manner in which I did my little experiment. Like I said above, and I don't know if it will be today, but I plan to mix things up a bit and see what happens.

Well, I found my right twist, 6 cord and I spent a couple hours fiddling around yesterday. As I had no left twist 6 cord, it's not an "apples to apples" comparison. I had to use 7 cord left twist. King's X, I have thought exactly that before, that not only the direction, but the manner in which the needles are inserted through the holes, in addition to exactly what you do with the threads (throw over, or not throw over) may have something to do with the unraveling issue. All of these factors will certainly affect stitch appearance. In my experiment yesterday, I sewed in one direction only, toward me, and did NOT throw over. I hold my awl in my right hand, and put the left hand needle through first, putting the right hand needle under it as it comes through, so essentially, when I pull the stitch, the (now) right hand thread is on the bottom on the front of the work. Hope everyone's still with me, because I believe any changes could affect the outcome. Anyway, what I found is there is a definite tendency for the left twist to loosen. I'm not talking about coming apart after I sew 6 inches, but it was visibly looser in the finished stitch line than the right twist. In fact, I could see the action of right twist tightening as I'd pull the stitch, and the left twist did not do that. When I was done and cut off the excess threads, the remaining left twist thread was much straighter and looser than when I had started. Not so with the right twist. Yes Lippy I did read posts in which Jimsaddler commented but with so many others saying it makes no difference, I wanted to do a side by side comparison and see for myself. Also, I'm still not sure of the exact reason behind this whole issue. I do know that there is a marked difference, and the longer the stitch line, the more apparent the unraveling. It had been years since I sewed with linen. It took some getting used to. First, one has to be much more careful not to let your excess thread pick up any dirt. My shop is never "eat off the floor clean", but nylon just won't pick up and hold the dirt like waxed linen. Also, there's more preparation with the linen, but I found it rather relaxing and enjoyable to prepare the threads. Sometimes, I think that those of us that are trying to make a living in the shop get so caught up in having to make X amount of money in X amount of hours every day, that we loose sight of why we started doing leatherwork in the first place. It becomes a job, to a certain extent, instead of the passion that it once was. Anyway, prepping those threads kind of made me think of that. So, I guess I made a short story long, but from now on, I will be using right twist for hand sewing. For those that think it makes no difference, you may be right when using the method you use. KIng's X if I have time today, I will change things up a little and see what happens. Have a great day everyone!

That's weird! I was just reading thread threads last night on this very subject for the same reason. I've always just used my machine thread for handsewing, which is left twist. BUT I do think there is something to the right twist theory. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with being right handed or not, but I've noticed for years that sometimes the thread will look like it's un-twisting in the stich line. I have some right twist at the shop in a box somewhere that I'm going to try today. I would like to hear from guys like Keith Siedel on this one, who does the prettiest job of handsewing his cantle bindings.

"I love the degree of control I have with it with the Servo motor, but hate it for real picky precise work." To clarify, it's not the Servo motor I hate for picky, precise work, it's the machine, or more specifically, the foot.

I bought one about a year and a half ago brand new after months of debate and driving hundreds of miles to look at a half wore out used adler. It all depends on what you want to do. I had a bunch of synthetic harness to build, and my other machines are either too slow (old Landis Ones) or hook and awl machines (Union Lock and Landis 16). So I bit the bullet and bought the Cowboy. One factor was definitely cost: the parts may not be the same quality as an Adler and it may not last as long, but I can wear out two Cowboys for the price of one Adler. There are things I like and dislike about the machine. I love the 16" throat. I love the Servo motor. Compared to my older machines, there is a minimum of adjusting needed. I do not like the wide foot. On my old harness machines, I can sew much closer to an edge, with a row of spots to the left of the foot. Yes I have the left and right toe feet, but there is still no comparison in how close I can get with the older machines. I hate the bobbin winder built into the machine. With a separate bobbin winder, if you need a bobbin wound, you just go wind one. Built in, you have to run the machine. If doing precise work, like sewing in old holes when re-lining a saddle skirt, or sewing in a groove, it is impossible to see the needle as it hits the leather due to the design of the center toe of the foot. With my old machines, I can see exactly where the needle hits, when it hits. You do get used to "sewing blind" and get a feel for where the needle is going to hit, but I still like the visibility the older machines give me. I think I can get my old machines to sew tighter than the Cowboy. I highly doubt that with daily use, the Cowboy will still be sewing in a hundred years, but that's the case with anything produced today, whether it's a sewing machine or a pickup. So in summary, I like it for the synthetics mostly because of the feed system, speed, and reverse feature (my first heavy stitcher with reverse) and speed. I love the degree of control I have with it with the Servo motor, but hate it for real picky precise work. It has the capability to sew harness tugs, but you can't channel the backside, and in my opinion, it doesn't pull the stitch tight enough on the back to leave it unprotected. This may leave you with more questions than answers, but feel free to ask away!

I'd close the shop if someone took my round knives. I do keep a razor skife on the bench, but for cutting and most skiving I use the round knives. I have one that's my favorite and use it 95% of the time. Making cuts with a razor blade just don't work for me; can't make a nice, smooth, straight cut. I think the main issue that people have who have trouble using a round knife, is that they think it is sharp and it really isn't. It needs to be scary sharp. Should be able to shave hair off your arm with it, and not big gorilla hairy arms--it should be able to shave girl arms! It is fun to use a round knife that is that sharp, and it requires care to keep it that way. I've cut myself with razor type blades and my little "clicker" knife or pattern knife with the removable blade, many more times than I've ever cut myself with a round knife, and they don't get used nearly as much as the round knives.

If these are still available, I will give you the $90.

The two replies above are correct. In addition to easier movement of stirrup leather, it keeps the stirrup leather from fouling on the dee. If you've had this happen, you'll know how annoying it can be. On new construction with a dee ring rig, I generally incorporate a safe of sorts into the hobble strap to cover the rear edge of the front dee rigging leather and extend up against the bottom of the swells where it is secured with nails and/or screws. This helps limit wear on the rigging leather, stirrup leather and fender. I have seen saddles come in for repair where any of those three parts are wore very badly due to friction of the stirrup leather and fender rubbing the rigging leather.

Just curious if you ever got ahold of Keith. I live about 35 miles from him and have given him plenty of business:) I bought an 18" splitter from him last winter and absolutely love it! Wish I'd bought it years ago, which is normally the case when I buy a new machine or tool.