Goldshot Ron

Nate, As Josh mentioned, the Al Stohlman book is very helpful and irreplaceable, it is available from Tandy Leather, ebay, or any good leather supply store. You mentioned using your existing saddle as a model or example to follow. This is helpful, but unless you are deconstructing your present saddle, there are a lot of steps that you may miss in constructing your new saddle just by studying your present saddle. The Stohlman books only cover all leather ground seats, and many makers prefer using a metal strainer for their ground seat. You'll need some source of knowledge on how to install a metal strainer. A good video that isn't mentioned very often is Bill Gomer's saddle making video. It is fairly inexpensive, yet he does a good job at directing the first timer at making a wade style saddle. He covers template making, and the basics for designing a well made saddle. You mentioned about wading your way through the process on your own. And, people may comment about this; however, I will give you my opinions on sources of information to avoid for now (because of cost and the format of the material): J.Watt's video, Dale Harwood's video, and most of the books written prior to the 1990s. Watt's and Harwood's videos are good for people who have built a few saddles to hone their skills, but they leave out some information that first timers will need. Techniques and styles have changed since the 50's and 60's, so older books are only good for picking up information for repairs and general interests. Finally the subject of nails/tacks: blue cut tacks are good and cheap for temporary purposes, but I suggest ringshank stainless steel 1 inch nails for final nailing of ground seats and nails that will never need to be removed for repairs. Other nails to buy are smooth/box stainless steel nails ( 1" and 1 1/4"). One Note: Stohlman over used tacks, a good glue is very important and will hold without using a lot of nails and tacks. I hope this answers some of your questions. Good luck, Ron

Adam, I think you did a fine job on this saddle, especially for a first attempt. I do have some suggestions and comments. First, the placement of the saddle on the horse appears that it is sitting back a little. Your latigo does not appear to be aligned straight up and down. This out of aligned placement shows also in the seat centerline to the horses centerline where the riders center of gravity is back behind the horse's center of gravity. It may be the photo illusion, but the placement of the girth appears to be placed close to the horse's elbow so you may not be able to set the saddle any more forward. Second, I don't understand the rear girth idea. I've only seen two girths used on pack saddles, then they were attached together and not at the normal girth/flank cinch offset. If you're going to be roping, you have to secure your rear off-billet so it doesn't get caught in your loop. Yours is just hanging there. Two other comments are cosmetic: your horn could be trimmed straighter up and down, and edged rounder, then burnished. And, your border needed the camo (or border stamp) stamped on the bottom like you did on your fork pattern. This adds to better symmetry of your design. Finally, the screw at the fork is too far back towards the seat. It should be placed in the centerline (up and down) of your fork, and about 1 to 1 1/2 inches down from the top edge of the seat jockey. I would have placed it about at the position of the 6th border stamp back from your latigo catcher in your offside photo (photo 5). This avoids pinching the seat leather in and interfering with your stirrups forward swing. Good luck on your next saddle. Ron

The last two "first time" saddles that I've seen posted on this site have looked really good. You did a really good job. I do have some questions for you before I jump in with suggestions. It looks like you have inskirt rigging, right or wrong? How did you make your flank cinch? What size seat is on the saddle? Will this saddle be used on the horse in the photo? Ron

Your first drawing showed a mermaid. A mulefoot could be used for the scales on the tail. If you get into flowers, a mulefoot is used to blend in stems at junctions of the stems.

Felis, I'm not going to attempt to answer all of your questions, because what I've read in your post is very ambitious for a first attempt. First, pick up a Craftool swivelknife with a 1/4 to 3/8 inch straight blade (of course you'll need a sharpening stone for the blade and a strop). Other tools would be a rawhide mallet, tooling stone, and for the design that you posted the tools you'd need would be a couple of bevelers ( 1/4 inch being the largest for now), a molding spoon, a mules foot, and a small seeder. To cut the leather a Stanley box cutter or even the "break off" blade cutters would be fine. As you progress and learn, the skies the limit. As far as leather, veg tanned shoulder would be fine or a half back, at 8-9 oz. Later, if you buy a splitter, heavier leathers could be used and split down as needed. If you line your headstall pieces, you'll need to sew the leathers together. This is where the glue (rubber cement) comes in handy. Of course, you'll need needles and handstitching thread, and a stitching pony. My suggestion is to start with a simple strap headstall that can be put together with Conway buckles and Chicago screws. This way you learn how to work with leather, and the dimensions needed to fit a horse's head. You'll also find the different suppliers for the materials that you'll need. Good Luck, Ron

Randy, I came across a diagram of how to tie the flank billet braid. The point can go up or down, that's up to you. Ron

Randy, You did a really good job on this saddle. I like the shape of your cantle roll. Your lacing looks good and flat. Now, here's my suggestions: work on your horn cap, you need to edge it where it is rounded off more and not so flat on the edge. From the rear your cantle looks fat, maybe 5 pieces of leather is too much. Your tooling looks good, but a bead along the edge of your tooling would have added to your tooling. Example, the BW on you fenders would look more finished if you used a beader, then the camo, then the BW. The beader that I use is a no. 4 single edge Gomph edger. I've used swivel knife beaders, but they cut the leather and you still have to come back and use an edger to make a nice bead. Little things make a big difference and they're easy. Try lacing your flank cinch billets with a triangular lacing other than the loop type you used. This will fancy up your work and is simple. Again, your cantle came out good, I say this because Cheyenne rolls always give me pain when making them. Also, was this tree made by Sonny Felkins in Utah? If so, how long did it take to arrive? Keep up the good work, Ron

Tinker, I looked at McMasters site a couple of weeks ago. They do carry box stock, and it just may work. I just haven't had time to pursue this item further. Thanks, Ron

Thor, I've never soldered silver, so I don't know if it would be practicable to try. 25b I'll try McMasters. Weaver's has small square loops, but no small box loop stock. I figured I could cut down a box loop leaving a flange at the bottom and the loop for the buckle piece. We'll see. Thanks guys. Ron

Attached is a photo of the item that I am trying to find. I had an idea of fabricating something out of a long box slide; however, I haven't found any of those small enough (1/2"x1/2"x1"). The only box slides that I found were 1inch square (too big). Thanks for the suggestions. Ron PS the photo is a repair job sitting on the bench. Separate from my search.

Geneva, thanks for the reply. I was hoping not to have to spend hours trying to make something that I could buy for the price of a cup of coffee. But, I guess sometimes you have to admit defeat. Thanks, Ron

Well, no one has commented on this topic for a while, but I would also like to know where someone can find the metal loop piece that the attachment strap goes through. I've repaired these headstalls before, and have always managed to make them work. However, I have a customer that wants me to build them a headstall with brass box loops, and brass tips on the 3/8" strap that goes through the loop. I figure I can use a hat band tip, but the box requires a flange on the bottom that is riveted through the bottom strap of the headstall. The loop is flat and wider than a plain wire loop, and can be engraved with a design. Someone out there has had to have to come across a source somewhere. I've checked many web sites (Hansen's, Montana Silver, etc.) but no luck. Ron

Randy, Your questions are a little confusing since you've made two saddles already. Don't oil anything until you've finished everything and are ready to put everything together. Everyone has their own sequence of construction, and it sounds like you haven't found yours yet. First, I fit up my skirts and block them (don't cut the bottom of them yet). Second, I install my seat. Next, I cover my horn and cap (this will vary from maker to maker). Anyway you get the picture. After you install your rigging and determine lug positions, you may have to punch a slot through your rigging plates so that the lugs can be pulled up tight and lay flat. This is okay since you can't tack them on until the rigging is attached. Don't line your skirts until you have checked your rigging drop, seat jockey, and general symmetry of the saddle. If everything looks good, now cut the bottom of your skirts to match your pattern, and put the final touches on them (stamping, etc.). It sounds funny, but I start making my skirts first thing, but don't finish them until most of the rest of the saddle is complete. This is what works for me. Ron

Randy, I only mentioned the seat pocket because it was taught to me by Al Gould, the saddle instructor for the Leather Show in Prescott, to position the riders center of gravity over the stirrups. The seat pocket should be approximately between the stirrup leather grooves on the bars and the front of the cantle starting point. Also, I purchased Cary Schwarz's cd for saddle making steps, and even though I like his work and style, Watt's cd is easier to follow. I don't think I have any tapes, CDs, or books that really give a lot of attention on how to really lay in a comfortable seat and it's placement. I think that's a technique the maker has to perfect. Ron

Randy, Your latest work looks good. The design looks clean, and your stamping looks good and thought out well. To reduce weight a smaller diameter horn and smaller cap. I didn't see the type of stirrup leather buckles you used, but Superior buckles are a feeewww ounces less than Blevins. One feature I think you may need to work on is your seat. It appears that your center of gravity is just a little too far back, and the slope moving up to your hand hole appears a little steep. Keep up the excellent work. Ron

Thanks for sharing. The end results looks good.

Randy, I can't answer your question. Tan Kote is recommended for saddles because it doesn't seal the leather like other products. The Tan Kote is used as a resist prior to antiquing; yet, allows for added oiling of the leather after dying if you want. If you use a resist such as Leather sheen, Resolene, or RTC oil will not be absorbed into the leather as well. I experimented with this technique prior to building and tooling the saddle, and found that it gave me better results; however, if making a tooled calendar cover or decorative item, the other resists give you better antiquing results. Ron

I've used Timberline and Bowden, and feel that they are acceptably made. Sunny Felkins I've heard makes well made trees in the mid-priced trees. You will see Billy Cook trees on Ebay, and I question the quality of these trees and if they are actually Billy Cook made trees. Also, I recommend not buying any trees, no matter who may have made them off of Ebay. I've purchased a few just to have trees to try on horses to determine fit and size; not one of them would I use to build a saddle (all junk). I basically build saddles and repair tack as a hobby. But, for me it has become more of a creative outlet. Unlike oil painting or woodworking, I can throw one of my saddles on my horse and ride off into the sunset. Also, if you get into tooling leather, heck, you'll have more money spent on stamps, swivel knives, and mauls than most of your saddle making tools. Ron

Randy, I would raise the front rigging plate up to your line on the pattern, but don't make your latigo cut any higher, or trim just a little. Then I would lower the rear dee so that the turnback of the flank billet will be just below the skirt. The skirts look fine as far as I can see from your photos. Wasn't this saddle for your wife? You might want to reduce your skirt length to 28 inches. If you trim at your stitch line, you will have the original line show, but only just a little. You can divert the eye from seeing this if you make a border line parallel to your stitch line, and no one but you will see it (the old stitch line cut). Your Cheyenne roll looks good. You could reduce it a little to reduce weight. Also, check the placement of your flank dee, to make sure it isn't back too far. Just a 1/2 inch does make a visual difference. Ron

Randy, Jeremiah Watt installs his rigging after the swell cover is installed, who's to argue with him? However, I install my rigging prior to the swell cover, because that's the way I first learned. Now that I have a little more experience in saddle construction, here are my reasons for installing the rigging before the swell cover: it is easier to line up the rigging in the position that you want, you can run the front rigging plates higher up the swell without fear of it showing after the seat is installed, and you can skive the rigging plates easier to get a good smooth fit without degrading the strength of the plates (these areas will be covered by the swell cover). I have a saddle with flatplate rigging that was made before 1945. The rigging has never had to be repaired, and the rigging was installed prior to the swell cover. One last thought about saddles; all you need on a saddle is a good tree, and well made and aligned rigging. I feel that you can align the rigging better with less stuff already on the tree. Ron

Good question. I'd like to know the different ways that people do this also. I've never seen any postings of this process, and I question the way that I do it. Hope someone comments.

Randy, I'd be glad to share the dying technique that I used. First, after tooling, I lightly oil the leather with neats foot oil, and let it absorb into the leather. Next I block dye the edges with dark brown oil dye. To do this, I use a dry/hard cellulous sponge (palm size) covered with a clean cotton cloth (old tee shirt). I apply the along the bottom edge of the sponge (about 1' wide strip), and blot off most of the dye on the flesh side of some scrap leather. Test on scrap to make sure the sponge isn't still too loaded with dye, it needs to be almost empty of dye (seems wasteful, but that's how it works). Gently in a circular motion wipe the sponge from the edge inward to where you want the dye pattern to end. DON'T push too hard, and be patient. I try to make my pattern look like clouds on the leather. When the block dye is dry, wipe with a paper towel or sherling to remove foreign particles. Apply at least two coats of Tan kote to the project. Let dry thoroughly. The final step is to apply antique acrylic stain to the entire project (only the piece that you are working on at this time), and using a damp closed cell sponge (the type you wash cars with) wipe off the excess stain down to the color that you are trying to achieve. Rinse out the sponge frequently, and wring out well. When the project is dry, buff with sherling or a soft cloth to remove any lent and application particles from the leather. I like the affect that this process offers, and it sets off the dyed and burnished edges. Also, it covers any mistakes or bleed over when dying the edges. Hope this helps, Ron

Many years ago I managed to find a phone number for Keyston Brothers in Nevada, Reno area. If I remember, they were not the actual saddle maker, but would contract for items with their name on them. The early saddles they sold were well made (the one I worked on was made in 1940 era). The saddle posted here was probably made in the 1960's. I would say that the worth is around $100. Do a phone number search and see if they are still around. The lady I talked with was very helpful, and she was able to pull up an old catalog off the computer with the saddle that I had. The saddle that Big Sioux posted was one with their old logo on it. It would interesting to know more of their history. Ron

I have to agree that restoring these saddles won't be much of a learning experience, except in what not to do when building a saddle. The materials needed to restore these saddles will be more than the saddles will ever be worth. I took an old saddle apart once to use as a demonstration saddle to show people the different components of a saddle. I found that it had a plastic seat strainer, and that the swell was broken prior to being covered at the factory. So they just nailed the broken swell back together. It was a good example of what not to buy when purchasing a saddle. If you have friends with horses, offer to clean their saddles for them. This will give you an opportunity to work on different saddles, and see how they are built and what went into their construction. Ron

My mistakes are used for practice tooling, and eventually end up in the trash. I've torn pieces off of my work days after completing just because I kept thinking about the screw-up. I have a couple of customers that go through my trash when they visit. So not to feel wasteful, I toss practice pieces in the trash before they arrive. Let one man's trash be another man's treasure.