Goldshot Ron

The distance of the rear flank cinch attachment point in relationship to the saddle skirts will be determined by form, style (and rigging style), and function. It is my opinion that the fold of the flank cinch billet should pivot on the skirts and not the horse. So, I can't say that there is a definite rule for ring placement. This is Tom Dorrance's old Wade saddle. The flank cinch is placed where I try to place my billets. The billet fold is pivoting on the skirt. If you search Dale Harwood you'll see some traditional views for Wade saddles and how he places rear billets. This should help you with your Wade. Ron

CW, I like your stamping, especially the back cantle cover. The saddle has very clean lines. One question is how did you determine the placement of the hobble loop? And, one comment, this may just be the photo, but your back string conchos seem to be higher than the front conchos. My concern would be that this might affect saddle bag placement in the future. Looks good, and the bead on the rought out came out well, and adds aesthetic value. Ron

There are several saddle critiques on this site, and I would suggest to search them out. Troy West, Steve Mason, and Steve Brewer are three of the names that I'd search for. They are three really good saddle makers, and their comments are really helpful toward form and design. Back to the shop, good luck!!!

RDL, After rereading your post I have a suggestion on your skirts. Don't cut your skirts to the finished pattern until after blocking them. Every maker has a different technique, but I cut my center line or top part of the skirts first to make sure I have enough room for the handhole screw and the rear lacing area. Then I block the skirts. After they dry, then I determine how the bottom line will look and the front and back lengths. With that said, I measured a saddle that I'm working on, and the distance from the corner of the cantle at the front down to the bottom of the skirts is 6 1/4 inches. I try to keep my flank cinch billet fold on the saddle skirt and off of the horse's side. My skirts are usually butterfly style, so I think you and I are similar in what we're trying to achieve. Randy...my first saddle has brought me more customers than any other saddle that I've built. Don't sell yourself short with your first one. Ron

I can't answer your question about width of the seat. I built this saddle for a female, and she has never complained about the seat. As I was building it, as I've done with all of my saddles, I make them to feel good on my skinny butt. That's what you'll have to do. I was impressed that the Laporte seat felt good without anything on it. The father of the fellow who makes Laportes builds a low weight saddle using very little leather. So, my answer would be, do what feels best to you. Good luck.

I suggest you start over on your skirts, which by the way I read your post, you'll have to buy another side of skirting. Your photos appear that the rear of the skirts are too small to fit your rigging. It doesn't look like the rear jockeys will be symmetrical will the front jockeys; and, you won't be satisfied if you just make do to save money. Skirts for ranch saddles should be more full and give more weight distribution on the hores's back. The other possible solution would be to use Stohlman's ring style rigging. It doesn't have the bulk that flatplate has; however, your flank cinch dee still will look too low in regards to your skirt. Again, this may just be the photo, but I can't count how many times that I settled on "good enough" just to kick myself later for actually settling for my frugality. Ron

It's been a few years, but I've attached some photos during construction. I tacked in stirrup leather spacers in the slots on the seat. I only covered the seat with one layer of leather to cover and skive out any bumps. The saddle had a cheyenne roll. You'll need a roll filler. My final seat was padded, so I didn't use the regular 3 ground seat layers. I also glued leather to the underside of the saddle and brought up the leather to cover the seat in the handhole. I hope this helps, Ron

First, if your Martin saddle is a roping saddle, where are the present dees located? Is your saddle inskirt rigged or drop dee style rigging? Inskirt rigging, I'd suggest using a pulling collar that has the collar billets that go through the hand hole and around the fork. It gives strength and doesn't require adding dees. If you have a drop dee style rigging, you can attach your clip and dees to the rigging plates using no. 9 copper rivets. Another way is to attach the clip and dees to the skirts at a position that is desirable for your collar. However, this doesn't offer the strength that you'll need, and the head of the rivet would be showing on the wool side of the skirts (simple way). Hard way would require taking out seams, riveting and resewing.

Randy, what you'll find is that saddle pads are only 29 to 31 inches in length. Last year I built a saddle that I thought looked good, and it was based on a design of Pat Parreli's saddle. The skirts were too long for the clients pad and his horse. I ended up making new skirts; and, the finished product now fit the clients horse; but, didn't look the way that I had envisioned.

Randy, I've used Stohlman's design now for seven years. I've read that his design wasn't level, etc.. So, I parked my horse on a flat place and set a bare tree on her. I took a 3 ft. level and set it on the horn and measured up from the cantle to the level. (It takes four hands, but is do-able.) I then went into the shop and reversed the process on my stand. It wasn't that far off (if at all). However, the modification that I did make was to add some saddle seat foam to the rear of the stand to better simulate a horses loin area, and hold the rear of the bars in a more secure position. The foam does raise the rear of the tree up some, but not 2 inches. Ron

Randy, Your saddle looks good. A thousand in materials is pretty average any more. I, like you, make about fifty cents an hour. But, it is a thrill to finish a saddle and sit in it for the first time on your horse. Have you worked with leather prior to attempting this first saddle? I think your stamped border looked good. Now, you need to purchase the Jeremiah Watt dvd and get a whole different perspective on saddle making. Ron

Tom, Think of the preinstalled ground seat as you would your regular metal groundseat. How does it feel on your rear? As Josh said, you need to determine how much build up you want in the front and seat comfort. If you are going to install a padded seat, then that will determine your build up. LaPorte and Chicago Stock Yard trees would require less underlayment than a tree with an added plastic ground seat. Most of the molded trees (Ralide, Laporte, etc.) have dimples in the seat area between the cantle and bars. You need to fill in these dimples, this will require a second groundseat piece to smooth out the bumps. Ron

Are you looking for a simple noseband attached to a poll strap that fits under the bridle?

Barry King also makes a concave crowner that works well on small flower petals. As Bob Blea mentioned, a lifter works well on the inside curve. After cutting in the inside and outside curves with these two tools, you can come back with your checkered bevelers to achieve the affect that you're looking for.

Older flateplate rigged saddles will have the rear part over the bars laced together. This creates a continuous rigging; however, like Bob, I've never seen webbing or leather over the seat. This would interfer with your stirrup leathers, and as mentioned, it would be in the way of the handhole. Ron

Your bags are unique. I think they show that some thought went into their design, and appear very functional. The gussets have worn quite well with this design. Thanks for sharing your work. Ron

I agree with Bob about redoing the horn if you don't like it. I've recovered a horn three times on one saddle before I got it like I wanted it. When I first started working with leather, I didn't want to waste leather. So I told myself to live with my mistakes, and I'd correct them on the next saddle. It's still hard, but now I redo a lot of my projects until I'm satisfied. Look at the Ray Hunt Wades that Timberline makes. This may be the horn and style that you are looking for. This is a picture of a Ray Hunt Wade tree from Timberline. Best of luck on your first attempt. Ron

Toot, Could you post a photo of your gussets? The seam on the gussets sounds like a good idea. I usually sew the front gusset with an inward seam, then the back of the gusset with a flat outward seam. However, when sewing both seams the same, it is hard to get the gusset to lay correctly. Thanks, Ron

You're on the right track with your designs. Keep practicing on flowing your lines into the circle without abrupt turns, practice on more graceful lines. Also, keep your stems flowing in the same direction. The circle on the extreme right has stems or leaves going in opposite directions. I couldn't make out where you attached the flowers to your stems. You need to practice on the transition from stems to the flowers and buds. I don't remember all of Bob's book, but I think that he mentioned "C"s and "S"s. These are the two shapes used in creating stems and flower designs. When you find yourself boxed into a corner with your design, go back to the basics: "C"s and "S"s. As a novice tooler, I often go back to the basics when stumped. One last suggestion, stems of flowers flow out from a central point. So your lines should all flow into a centerline. This centerline will not be on your finished product, but should always be visialized in your mind to keep your work flowing. Keep on practicing, you're on the right track. Ron

After reading this post, I feel that there is a little confusion in regards to the type of leathers that can be used. Tooling leather and skirting leather are tanned the same. So as mentioned, you can use 8/9 oz. veg tanned leather for you bag flaps, fronts, and backs. Some people will used 6/7 or 7/8 once chap leather for the gussets. Chap leather is chrome tanned, and most of the time is more flexible than veg tanned leather. Some people even make the entire bag out of chap leather. You can also use latigo leather for gussets, 6/7 oz. If you are going to decorate the flaps or fronts with tooling, then you'll have to used veg tanned leather (skirting leather or tooling leather). However, your first post sounds like you want soft, flexible saddle bags. If I am correct, then you'll need to consider buying chrome tanned leather. I hope that I'm not confusing your original post, and, if I've muddied up the post, please comment. Ron

I'm looking for a 1 3/4" diameter concho used on an F.O. Baird saddle. Unknown date of saddle. The concho is attached with 2 half inch wide loops on the rear. Can anyone help? Thanks, Ron

Tom, Your repair looks good. I hope you made some money on this project. Ron

My usual way of preparing my skirts is the same way as you'll find in the Stohlman books. The top of the skirts and the filler pieces are glued together, then the sheep skin is glued to the skirts, and one line of stitching holding everything together. However, I feel when using inskirt rigged saddles the extra stitchline helps reinforce the skirts to make the saddle more secure and stronger. I've seen too many inskirt saddles where the stitching has rotted away or torn, and the only things holding the saddle to the horse are a few concho screws. You can use a single stitchline if you want to prepare your skirts. There are no set rules. I tend to over engineer everything I make just to be safe.

OK...that's a photo I posted earlier this year. This saddle had a rear jockey so the installment of the flank ring is different than a set of skirts without a rear jockey. With that said: first, determine the design of your skirts and block them. This is easier done prior to putting in your seat. After installing your seat, come back to your skirts and align your top piece. Cut your leather oversize on the outside edges of your bottom piece. Using rubber cement glue the bottom and top pieces together to insure fit. Fitting up includes rigging placement. When satisfied with the skirts on the tree, remove the skirts from the tree (without pulling the cemented skirts apart) and compare them to each other to insure they're alike. Trim your top piece to match the bottom piece and attach your rigging plates and dees. Check your edges once more, sanding them if necessary to insure that they are cut at a 90 degrees. When satisfied, sew them together about 3/8ths of an inch from edge. If your skirting leather is light weight, you can install filler pieces as you would regular skirts; however, this isn't necessary with heavy weight leather and does increase bulk. These skirts are held into place on the bars with screws at the fork, at the cantle corner at the bars (covered by seat jockey), and rear rosettes or conchos. The sheepskin is installed as usual and the sitch line is about 3/16ths from the edge. I'm old, but not an old saddle maker. This method has worked for me on three saddles without any client complaints, knock on wood. Hope this helps, Ron

You need to repost your photo...I can't see your photo to see what you are talking about. If you are asking about using inskirt rigging and how to attach it to the bars without using rear jockeys there are some different steps not shown in Stohlman's books; and, I haven't seen any procedures in any other saddle making books. Ron