Goldshot Ron

Well Ryan, if your saddle is No. 2, I would hate to compete against No. 1. For only your second saddle, it looks amazing. Your tooling looks well planned, and your swivel knife work is great. Tooling the back of the cantle is difficult at best, but you nailed it. I like how you stitched the flank cinch billet buckle holes; makes it look professional. The three judges are talented saddle makers, and you can trust what they said to be really good advice. Keep up the good work. Ron

What did you determine for tree size using the card system? I have no experience with the Dennis Lane System. Since many mules have shorter backs than horses, you may consider using Arab measurements. Another possibility would be to consider using a composite tree; like Chicago Stock Yards. I've build on one of their trees, and it went quite well. I feel your concern about doing the best you can, and what you make will be used. I suggest calling Timberline, Randy is the owner, and see what he says. Quality makes a very well made tree, and I do like their rawhide covering.

Randy, I'm not very good at this, but maybe you can succeed. Take a Dremel Tool and modify the stamp yourself. I've made my own geometric stamps and I've modified some round stamps. If it doesn't work, you are only out the Dremel cost and the cost of the practice stamp. Both items may equal the cost of one really good stamp. One of the best stamps for BW impressions that I have is Lonnie Height's (forgive spelling). Hidecrafter stamp impressions are also good for an inexpressive stamp, but their shanks bend over time. I'm on my 3rd. HC- BW, but the impression can't be beat. Anyway, I hope what you can find out there works for you. Good Luck. Ron

Dusty, I suggest you to change your title for this discussion, or start a new one that would have the title like "Building my First Mule Saddle". I think you would receive more advice, and easier for some of us (old farts) to follow. Ron

Well Dusty, This is always said to first timers on this site, pick up Vol. 1 of Stohlman's Saddle Encyclopedia. Read it cover to cover a couple of times. This will give you the basics and then some. His books only teach you how to do all leather groundseats, so his methods are somewhat dated compared to today's saddles. Search through this forum for saddle making and you'll find almost everything you will want to know. There are two tree makers that I suggest for information, solid trees, price, and quick service: Bowden Saddle Trees (Anthony, TX) and Timberline (Vernal, Utah). There are a whole bunch more that make great trees, and the prices only go UP. One last consideration you need to know (if you haven't thought of it) is rigging type and placement. Stohlman doesn't quite cover that, but I have photos of mule rigging that I have installed that might give you ideas. Old Toot on this site will be around to help also (a lot of knowledge there). Randy above is a saddle maker who participates in saddle making contests; he'll help too. Well, good luck and keep in touch.

Dusty, Are you building a western saddle or English style? Do you want to be a traditionalist maker or innovative? Traditional western saddle makers use an awl with a diamond shaped blade for making the stitching holes and waxed hand stitching thread. Tools you will need: a stitch line groover, an overstitch wheel (I use a 6 spi but some use 7 or 8 spi). The type of thread used traditionally is linen (6 cords), but I use 5 cord polyester. If using a machine, I use 346 with 277 bobbin nylon. Everyone does things differently, but I wouldn't recommend using chisels for sewing a saddle. Easy stitchers (a brand name) could be used, but the thread they use is too light for a saddle (I believe it's thread is 3 cord lightly waxed). Building a saddle is exciting, nerve racking, enjoyable, and frustrating. Hope this helps some. There are plenty more saddle makers here to help you along. Ron

Ryan, We posted at the same time, and I just read your reply. On the rear skirts here is what I do: make a large shot bag about 12 to 14 inches long by 4 inches wide. Dampen your skirts when blocking and put the saddle on your stand with the shot bag under the skirts behind the bars. Use you draw down strap to pull down the bars into the skirts. This simulates the butt of the horse and how the saddle would fit the horse. This trick can be used in final assembly also. (The draw down strap would be behind the cantle) It rises the skirts and draws down the rear jockeys at the same time. (The shot bag comes in handy when laying out patterns and weighting drying glued pieces.) Ron

Ryan, I think your saddle looks top notch. Your tooling design looks balanced, and the impressions look good. At your age, you'll be a master in 20 or so years. And, still young enough to use your tack. I have to second what Randy mentioned. Dyed edges should be on all the edges, even the skirts. The edge of the wool (fleece) needs to be trimmed more; this is important if you enter any contests (Prescott Leather Show is coming up ya know). It's a real "no...no" if the rear of the bars show, so take Randy's critique seriously. The handhole is a little small, like Randy mentioned; it may not matter too much on a kid's saddle, but real important (to me) on a working saddle. And finally, your cantle binding appears to be low in the seat. It could rub a sore on the rear of the rider. Try to keep the binding recessed above the cantle (or actually in line with the seat contour). In one of the issues of LCand SJ, Bob Klenda has an article about rawhide cantle bindings that I feel can be pertinent when installing a leather binding on a straight-up seat. You've come a long way in the past years. Keep up the good work. Hey, the saddle stand looks trick also. Ron

OK Clay...here's how I would start. Cut and install stirrup leather plugs to fit your desired leather's width. Use short tacks only long enough to hold plugs. Long tacks make it hard to remove plugs when finished. Remember to allow for the desired forward swing that you want. Next, you'll have to install risers along your plugs to allow ground seat to bridge over the plugs. As you can see, there are dimples in the fiberglass seat. The first ground seat layer will be skived to smooth out the seat, and contour it to your desire. I hope this helps. Since it is your first saddle, there are many ways to build a saddle; and, who really knows which way is best. Every time I repair a saddle, I see different ways to reach the same end result. Some good, some bad, and some I just can't figure out how they work. One last thing, where you have marked 3/4; that may be too far back to allow for smooth leg action. Ron

I would recommend making spacers for your leather slots as Stohlman shows in his Saddle Encyclopedia. Since this is your first saddle, I think that this would help in alignment of your leathers and less chance of cutting the fiberglass on the bars. I've never treated a fiberglass seat any different than a metal strainer. Also, I've used the same process on a La Porte tree as described in the Stohlman book. A photo of the tree would help for people to offer suggestions, so that we are all on the same page. Ron

Randy, It came out very nice. The symmetry came out quite well. I laugh, but we all need practice to get better. That's what it is all about. Good luck in the Boot and Saddle Show.

Check out You Tube for issues and setting timing. I suffer your problem with mine all the time. You will need some good screwdrivers, very short one and a long one (also, a set of mini screwdrivers, Stanley type). Get a good magnet to pick up dropped screws, and you will drop one or two; and, a good light and possibly a magnifying glass if your eyes are older like mine. Originally, it would take me 2-3 hours to adjust and set the timing, but now I can do it in about 45 minutes. Also, remove your hook assembly, and clean and oil this area. Again, you can see how to do this on You Tube. Good Luck

Randy, I forgot tap offs. I think Saddle Bags said what I was trying to say. If you use transfer paper, don't draw all the stems and leaves on your pattern. First, you may not see them when if comes to cutting in, and, (like I often do, I scratch my head and wonder what I was thinking) when I make a cut and realize that wasn't what I was thinking. The neat thing about tap offs, is that you can lightly tap one where you might think it would look good, and erase it if it doesn't. Anyway, swells are a challenge, and the only way to get good is to try. Hey you are close to the TCAA hall, and hope you get er done for Wichita Falls show. Ron

Randy, In the first photo, I can see your welt, and your pattern appears to fit around the welt. The second photo it appears that the pattern hits the welt. It has been years since I tooled any swells; but the lesson I learned was to keep it simple. Here's what I suggest: envision that your flower stem starts down by the bars and goes counter clock wise so that it ends on the seat side. Your pattern starts like I suggest, but confuses me at the base of the bud area in the first photo. The second photo appears that you turned your pattern over, and it doesn't appear to fit over the welt. Anyway, practice on scrap first. That was my mistake when I first did swells. I went full tilt doing my finished cover and lived with the results. BIG MISTAKE for me. Good Luck, Ron

Well hell Randy, you should have posted your photo first. Disregard my comments John. I can't remember who or where I just heard this, but we tend to lay out our leather on a flat table, cut and prepare it to go on a round and odd shaped object. John, when laying out your skirts, shape them (damp) on and around your tree. Then when everything looks good, cut and finish. Ron

John, You need to determine if you want a light weight trail saddle, or a tie-down cow working saddle. This determines the weight of skirting you would use, and the rear design of your rigging. Many makers use a two-part assembly for the top of the skirt that would cover the top of the tree. One limiting factor to this design is that the seams wear and break under the stirrup leathers. I prefer a one layer top piece, but this requires more leather, and a greater chance of making a fitting mistake; but no seams under the leathers. Your connection points are like you said: the ear tab at the cantle, and the rear conchos. If fitted and blocked correctly, and the rear of the skirts are laced together, this is very secure. If you block and use fillers for your skirts, make sure the fillers are lighter leather. Heavy fillers make the rear of the bars bump around the conchos that some people do not like; but, doesn't affect the performance of the saddle. Also, adds extra weight. Tip: determine what the top leather will look like, and how it will fit. When sewing the top to the bottom, over cut the bottom of the skirts, and trim them when satisfied. To do this in reverse: fitting top to bottom, is a real pain in the arse. Ron

I believe that Keith Seidel and another noted saddle maker posted some instructions on this site for inlaid padded seats. I did a quick search and couldn't find what I was looking for. Try looking for posts by Keith and maybe you'll find something; or, maybe Keith may see your post and respond. I have hard copies of a couple ways to put in a seat, and if you don't get info. from the experts, I'll be glad to post what I have. I may also have photos from one of my saddles to posts. Like everything, there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Ron

BNEWTONP, I forgot about posting this saddle; but I am glad you showed up. The only number that I found on the saddle that I repaired was: 21001. This number was what I wrote on the invoice and I no longer have the saddle. Hope you have the invoice card. Kayw...you mentioned that Rocky Minster moved to Prescott. Did he open a shop, or just retired there? I took a class from him close to 8 years ago, and found him a very good instructor and a great source of information. Thanks Ron

I'll go to the shop and try rethreading the shuttle. Sioux, the bobbin thread is clumping; like you would see on a poorly sewn backstitch. I'm using nylon bonded thread with silicon lubricant in the wax pot. My stitching looks like the "old" fox said: "...some days chicken, some days feathers". Now that you mentioned Cuba, NM; that's where the fellow lives who I bought the machine from. I know that these machines were made for linen thread, but I'm unaware of a good source. Thanks guys for the info.

OK Sioux, I have a request....would you post photos of how you thread the bobbin? I purchased a 3 several years ago because I thought I needed one. Anyway, I was never sure if the bobbin was threated correctly. Lately, I have been having trouble on the bobbin side of the stitch. Also, where can you buy extra bobbins? I only have one. My machine"s story is that it came from King Saddlery through Sheridan Leather, via a gentleman from Northern New Mexico. Cool to have tools with such history. Thanks, Ron

I agree with all of the advice above. Adam's and Stohlman's books are a must. I still refer to each of these on a regular basis, even when repairing or modifying a saddle. The older books from the 50s and 60s are interesting to read for historical techniques, but not handy in todays construction methods. Dale Harwood's DVD is good for different techniques and opinions, but the DVD set is expensive. Cary Schwarz also has DVDs available for ground seat installation, and covering cantles. These are excellent to study after you have built a few saddles. One thing about this forum is that there are plenty of people to help you if you get stuck at a segment of construction. There is a member on here from Michigan, Bondo Bob, who might reappear to help you. Good luck.

Try Herb Bork in Pendleton, Or. I haven't seen them in their catalog, but you may get lucky.

Geary, As Josh mentioned, the Stohlman Encyclopedia vol. 1 will be very helpful. If you could post some photos of the saddle rigging, you'd receive more help. There are so many techniques and styles, it is helpful to see the saddle. Ron

Lookin' good Ryan. Nice touch with the seeder used with the camo stamp along the edge.

The Instagram example that you posted uses a lined pear shader in the pedals. You could also use a checkered shader, but the lines is more realistic. Anyway, the lines hold the dye as you can see in your decorative cuts.