How To Slow It Down...

[kwalk20]

Thanks Bob, but right now cost is a factor. So I will have to go the cheapest route. I watched a video Arthur Porter did and it did the trick, but I just need to understand how to install it in order to still allow the head to go back. I got my stitch fixed pretty good...somewhat. My husband discovered that the bar that holds the needle was crooked and my harness foot was really bent out of whack. It came that way because on the piece of leather they used to test the machine the backstitches were not in the same holes, they veered off to the left the same way as I was trying tell you about. I don't know how that was missed before shipping, but with some fixes thanks to the hubby, and some adjustments to the tension we got it going.

[SARK9]

Hi Kwalk- Your Seiko is a very nice machine. A couple of things you might mention: What is the max thickness of the material you need to sew? Large needle/thread or? Is it mostly going to be detailed, fussy stitching in short sections, or more wide open? What motor and pulley size is on your machine now?

The most economical approach is to mod what you have, if possible. Some servo models may meet your needs without the reducer at all, depending on your situation. If you are currently using a lower RPM (1725+/-) clutch motor, this forum has several practised adherents of that school, and they may be able to get you doing the fabled stitch-at-a-time by tuning your current hardware, replacing the pulley, and tricking out the cork pads of the clutch discs. Larger handwheel pulleys can also change the ratio for the better.

The offset mounting plate in my post is more geared to DIY types as a means of slicking up the alignment of a reducer and the servo while utilizing the predrilled holes already in the table.  Basically, it just moves the servo's position towards the back of the table so that the centerline of the reducer's shaft is able to be located a bit past the pivot point of the machine head's hinge pins, thus allowing normal tilt of the head. You also gain some extra clearance between the larger reducer pulley and the motor pulley-needed more as the diameter goes up on the reducer's driven pulley. Essentially the plate can be made of anything strong enough to hold the servo under load- I like aluminium plate since I can get that easily.

 

-DC

[kwalk20]

Hi Sark9,

Thank you for responding. I have a family servo 550s. I make leather bags so the thickness varies. The max is the top of what the machine will handle which is about 3/8 in., but sometimes I push it on the seams. I use mainly 138 top and 69-138 in the bobbin. I sew a bit of both detailed, fussy and long stretch.

Quote

2 hours ago, SARK9 said:

The offset mounting plate in my post is more geared to DIY types as a means of slicking up the alignment of a reducer and the servo while utilizing the predrilled holes already in the table.  Basically, it just moves the servo's position towards the back of the table so that the centerline of the reducer's shaft is able to be located a bit past the pivot point of the machine head's hinge pins, thus allowing normal tilt of the head. You also gain some extra clearance between the larger reducer pulley and the motor pulley-needed more as the diameter goes up on the reducer's driven pulley. Essentially the plate can be made of anything strong enough to hold the servo under load- I like aluminium plate since I can get that easily

I guess this is what I'm trying to do. I want to be able to have it positioned where I can still tilt the head back without having to remove the belts every time and I know I'll need to reposition things under there, but not sure how or what I need to be concerned with to make it right. I went ahead and put a reducer on order. It's this one: And I'm trying to figure out how best to mount it and get the beloved stitch at a time.Thank you for any help you can give me!

 

[CowboyBob]

11 hours ago, kwalk20 said:

Thanks Bob, but right now cost is a factor. So I will have to go the cheapest route. I watched a video Arthur Porter did and it did the trick, but I just need to understand how to install it in order to still allow the head to go back. I got my stitch fixed pretty good...somewhat. My husband discovered that the bar that holds the needle was crooked and my harness foot was really bent out of whack. It came that way because on the piece of leather they used to test the machine the backstitches were not in the same holes, they veered off to the left the same way as I was trying tell you about. I don't know how that was missed before shipping, but with some fixes thanks to the hubby, and some adjustments to the tension we got it going.

I can understand everyone wants to save $$ & I don't blame you for that.But the box style reducer sells for $185.00+ shpg & then all you do is bolt it on, measure for belts & you are done,no making & lining up of plates(or redrilling holes in the table top) & trying to make it work & with that plate that moves the motor back the motor will stick out of the back of the table & you won't be able to push the table against a wall because the motor will hit the wall.

[SARK9]

>>& with that plate that moves the motor back the motor will stick out of the back of the table & you won't be able to push the table against a wall because the motor will hit the wall. <<

Not so much with the ones I posted. The plate *may* stick out past the rear edge of a "factory" drilled table about 3/8ths of an inch; That is dimensioned to accommodate the largest reducer pulley I make (9"+), and its just to give the outboard foot plate of the servo motor more stability while its bolts are tightened. I've only done a dozen or so like this, however.  Its one possible solution to the "no tilt" problem that arises when using these stand-alone reducers, and for that *one* aspect of the conversion, its a bolt-on-and-done as well.  Its still geared for the DIY crowd, and as they say, some assembly required. Photos available on request.

 

-DC

 

[CowboyBob]

1 hour ago, SARK9 said:

>>& with that plate that moves the motor back the motor will stick out of the back of the table & you won't be able to push the table against a wall because the motor will hit the wall. <<

Not so much with the ones I posted. The plate *may* stick out past the rear edge of a "factory" drilled table about 3/8ths of an inch; That is dimensioned to accommodate the largest reducer pulley I make (9"+), and its just to give the outboard foot plate of the servo motor more stability while its bolts are tightened. I've only done a dozen or so like this, however.  Its one possible solution to the "no tilt" problem that arises when using these stand-alone reducers, and for that *one* aspect of the conversion, its a bolt-on-and-done as well.  Its still geared for the DIY crowd, and as they say, some assembly required. Photos available on request.

 

-DC

 

The plate does look like a good idea BUT I was talking about the motor sticking out past the edge of the table since it has to be moved back.

[SARK9]

The motors I have been using don't protrude past the rear edge of the table at all, once you get the correct belt length worked out. I have 3 walking foot machines with these mount  plates installed that are all set within an inch of the wall, not because they won't go any closer, but because I frequently work on longish straight runs and I need the material to be able to go *somewhere* besides INTO the wall.

-DC

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by SARK9
syntax error

[Sonydaze]

Regardless of what kind of motor, I get better control by using both feet on the peddle. Using both feet is something I read in an old Juki manual. I was accustomed to using only one foot but after I got used to using both feet. I found that I had much better control.  ymmv.

[gottaknow]

6 hours ago, SARK9 said:

The motors I have been using don't protrude past the rear edge of the table at all, once you get the correct belt length worked out. I have 3 walking foot machines with these mount  plates installed that are all set within an inch of the wall, not because they won't go any closer, but because I frequently work on longish straight runs and I need the material to be able to go *somewhere* besides INTO the wall.

-DC

 

That is a nice looking 563!

Regards, Eric 

[kwalk20]

15 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

I can understand everyone wants to save $$ & I don't blame you for that.But the box style reducer sells for $185.00+ shpg & then all you do is bolt it on, measure for belts & you are done,no making & lining up of plates(or redrilling holes in the table top) & trying to make it work & with that plate that moves the motor back the motor will stick out of the back of the table & you won't be able to push the table against a wall because the motor will hit the wall.

I guess I wasn't or didn't even know to think about this aspect of it. All I was thinking about was the more cost effective route for me after seeing others do it. Thanks again.

 

Quote

11 hours ago, SARK9 said:

Not so much with the ones I posted. The plate *may* stick out past the rear edge of a "factory" drilled table about 3/8ths of an inch; That is dimensioned to accommodate the largest reducer pulley I make (9"+), and its just to give the outboard foot plate of the servo motor more stability while its bolts are tightened. I've only done a dozen or so like this, however.  Its one possible solution to the "no tilt" problem that arises when using these stand-alone reducers, and for that *one* aspect of the conversion, its a bolt-on-and-done as well.  Its still geared for the DIY crowd, and as they say, some assembly required. Photos available on request.

I would really love to see those pictures being that my reducer is already on its way. Thanks a bunches!

 

Quote

3 hours ago, Sonydaze said:

Regardless of what kind of motor, I get better control by using both feet on the peddle. Using both feet is something I read in an old Juki manual. I was accustomed to using only one foot but after I got used to using both feet. I found that I had much better control.  ymmv.

I've never heard of  doing this. I'm going to try it and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the tip!

 

[kwalk20]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 10:26 AM, SARK9 said:

Its one possible solution to the "no tilt" problem that arises when using these stand-alone reducers, and for that *one* aspect of the conversion, its a bolt-on-and-done as well.  Its still geared for the DIY crowd, and as they say, some assembly required. Photos available on request.

Sark9, would you happen to have those pictures of your installation? My pulley's been sitting on the table and we've finally started the process, but I want to be sure we are doing it right. Thanks in advance!

[brmax]

I have been taking a interest and right now looking at 5 tops the three bolt mounting has the single bolt towards the right and closest to drive belt slot.

This particular single bolt hole is factory drilled on 3 tops and I myself drilled on two other tops here with its "center" ranging 2-1/8 to 2-5/8 directly in line with its installed machines pulley centerline.

My reason for posting this interest is these motors are at their extent as the bolt dia. is at the end of slot on all 4 servos 1 clutch mount.

I had also noticed these motor pulleys are not designed to move or adjust as sliding on the shaft like some stuff.

So I may need a mount / reducer that has ability for its machine drive pulley center to be within my  tops slot and machine pulley "range".

This may be a custom need I am looking into but it seems relevant, and to access the wealth of knowledge for a note takin ; )

Have a good day everyone!

Floyd

Edited June 2, 2016 by brmax

[kwalk20]

Got her done!!!! Thanks to the tips on here we finally got it completed! And Sark9 for that detailed explanation and drawing with pics which we referred to many times. Now to find another belt that fits exactly right, but otherwise, good stuff.

[mikesc]

In a pinch ( like when you really need to get something done and you have no belt ) you can make a belt from a length of shock cord ( bungee cord to the "right side of the pond" ) pass it around the two pulleys that you need to connect, ( hold the end onto the groove on the biggest pulley ) just like as if it were the missing belt , mark on the cord where to "cut to correct length"..where the cord meets up with the end again on the biggest pulley, take it off the pulleys, now actually cut the shock cord 20% shorter than the length that you marked..

Butt the ends together, glue the frayed strands down smooth and sew ( by hand , with a curved needle if you have one ) the Butted ends together so that the join is a smooth as possible..make it solid and strong use more stitches than you would think, and make the stitches "bite "into the cord and it's outer layer at least 10mm from each side of the Butt join..try pulling the join apart ( don't go crazy pulling it, or it will rip apart for sure, but "test" it , put it snug over your two wrists and then move them apart by another 20% ) ..It holds? Good:)

Now refit it around your two pulleys in place of the missing belt ( you'll have to stretch it a bit, like 20% ) it should now sit down in the pulley grooves a bit and grip )..This will keep you going until a real belt arrives in the mail, you'll probably feel a slight "bump" as the join goes around each time, but you'll be sewing..I ran my 211 like this for a week while I waited for the real belt to arrive, "no machines were harmed in the making of this hack"..Don't stretch much more than 20%, or you may be straining the bearings on the speed reducer or the motor drive pulley, can also be used as a temp substitution way of making the drive belt from the reducer to the machine head, or from a motor drive pulley to a machine head..

It probably isn't safe to run a Shock cord belt as fast as a real belt, so don't..But we are talking about speed reducers here, so you won't be running it fast anyway..
( I did this, I take no responsibility for anything that anyone else might do as a result of reading this post , if it breaks and tears your leg off, don't come running to me as my Mum used to say )

Shock cord / bungee cord..like stretchy duct / gaffer tape :)

Edited June 4, 2016 by mikesc

[kwalk20]

Thank you Mikesc, I didn't think it was safe to make a hack. I was afraid that anything that wasn't supposed to be there would damage the motor, but thanks for giving me an alternative when in a punch! I appreciate any and all tips,  trips and hacks. 

[oldfarmboy]

Probably asked a thousand times already. How do these servo setups work to drive the machine? Do they still use a clutch like the old mechanical system? Do you set the speed and then engage the drive with a clutch? Or do they work like regular domestic sewing machines that have a foot control to vary speed from very slow to fast? I've just latched on to a Pfaff 145 and it's a beast to control. Also found a Reliable blind hemmer months ago and it used the same clutch system. From zero to full bore. Saved the table. Rest of it is in the junk pile for recycle.

Can't live very long with this setup. Beyond me how all that engineering could go into these machines and they come up with a drive like this???

Thanks

 

[JLSleather]

I'm always just dumbfounded when I see all the posts about how slow I can sew with my [ insert model here ] sewing machine.  

There is no value in being slower.  Obviously, you shouldn't do anything faster than you are able to do safely.  And I've heard of people learning to use sewing machines with a tennis ball under the foot pedal -- or like I did, just adjust the foot pedal rod so that if I accidentally pushed it down, there was a top limit that I could control.

But down the road, seriously... how well do you think that would work at a job interview?

• Q:  What would you say is one of your strengths?
• A:  I can sew a belt R E A L L Y slow! 

  While it's not politically correct to throw you out, you're probably not on the call-back list

So why, then, would anyone think it's desirable on a project?  Same scenario...

• Q: "hey Jeff, you use HO grade A leather, design your own, and stitch (usually) with a piece of cobra, just like that other guy.. so WHY should I buy yours instead of his?"  
• A:  Cuz I sew it R E A L L Y slow.  Like, have a snak between stitches.

Again...   

I've even seen videos made.. like ... LOOK how slow I can go ...!

Where's that video Wiz did a while back.. was it guitar straps or rifle slings?  Zip, zip, done.  Zip, zip, done.

 

[Northmount]

21 minutes ago, oldfarmboy said:

Probably asked a thousand times already. How do these servo setups work to drive the machine? Do they still use a clutch like the old mechanical system? Do you set the speed and then engage the drive with a clutch? Or do they work like regular domestic sewing machines that have a foot control to vary speed from very slow to fast? I've just latched on to a Pfaff 145 and it's a beast to control. Also found a Reliable blind hemmer months ago and it used the same clutch system. From zero to full bore. Saved the table. Rest of it is in the junk pile for recycle.

Can't live very long with this setup. Beyond me how all that engineering could go into these machines and they come up with a drive like this???

Thanks

 

Servo motors are variable speed control.  No clutch.  You can also slow your machine down by installing a pulley speed reducer set and by decreasing the size of your motor pulley, or increasing the size of your machine pulley.  Sewing leather with a hard temper and / or a thick stack of leather requires a lot of torque,  So even with a servo motor, you may still need to use a pulley speed reducer set.  Torque in general varies inversely with motor speed.  You can do a search here and find lots of threads and posts about servo motors.

Tom

[Hockeymender]

Guess some people here don't have to do any precision sewing in the work they do. I for one need a very slow machine to get the stitching correct on the gloves, skates and other hockey gear I sew. To go "zip zip, done" would create an unsightly and unusable piece of equipment (and hockey players are very fussy about the fit and feel). In my better than twenty years of doing this I have learned it is actually quicker to sew at a snails pace, because I don't have to go back and redo things that sewing fast caused me to do incorrectly and thus I lose time going back to make corrections. 

I'm sure that for many applications sewing fast works well and is the preferred and recommended method, but not in every case. 

[JLSleather]

Try to relax - I slow down at sharp turns, too, .. and likely most of us do.  And I go quite slow when backstitching, since I'm determined to get at least some work out of this piece of cobra.   and it's not so very reliable about stitching back in teh same holes (crap shoot... it may or may not from one time to the next).

But on a belt that runs straight for 45" per side, or a holster that has a "turn" with an 8" radius.... Well, ya know what.. second thought.. I should just stay out of alot of stuff around here.  No worries

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

When I made the video of me zipping around the rifle slings at 15 stitches per second, I was using an edge guide, had lots of practice and was doing it on a piece work basis in my "free time" after working in my friend's leather shop all day. When I sew anything requiring precise stitch lines, I go fairly slow, mainly around curves, slots, gun shapes, etc. Belts get pressed against the edge guide, the dial gets spun to full speed and I floor the pedal. The heat helps melt the knots inside the leather.

[JLSleather]

That video was down-right inspirational, Wiz   And exactly my point... git'er done.  I go slow enough ( and JUST slow enough) to ensure the quality of the finished project.  

I understand that won't be the same speed to everyone.  Without even looking for them, I'd been shown SO many videos of click... et...... tey.... clak..... click.... 

When I saw your video, I was this guy...   

Truth is, what the next guy does - or does not -- is not my business.  But that simple little video was memorable and worthwhile (thanks  )

 

[LumpenDoodle2]

Can't deny, learning to sew while trying to control a clutch motor is a great learning experience.    If you can sew with a clutch motor, you can sew with anything.

I'm one of the few folk here who use the needle positioner with their servo motor.   It sews slow/fast enough for me, and when I hit a tricky bit, I just pedal one stitch at a time, letting the positioner cycle the stitch.

Works for me.

[banjo48]

Well for me the servo motor is a delight, I tried clutch motors that came with my machines and hey yes for long straight runs great, but for delicate work slow is best IMO.

I don't use my machines for big earnings, but for the pleasure of making something myself and enjoying doing so.

 

[MADMAX22]

In my experience my 211G155 clutch motor was great for wide open and was very touchy for slower operations, the punching power was ok for very thin stuff. By just changing to a adjustable speed servo motor the control at slower speeds was greatly increased. The slow speed punching power is now adequate and it will still fly right along for the longer runs, just as fast as the clutch motor that was on it previously.

I had to do a couple of MC seats on the 4500 due to the 211 being out of commission and it was a test of patience as far as time was concerned. Not that I am a speed demon by any means. Not to mention getting a free hand straight run of stitches is actually more difficult at really slow speeds. It takes a little bit of speed to get those straight runs to come out right and obviously the more experienced you are the faster they can be accomplished. I am still at the slower end of that.