pathetic. again.

[JLSleather]

 

Whatcha think?  Does SLC NOT KNOW what Hermann Oak "B" looks like, or do they THINK I DONT" know?   I've called and complained enough times that I just wont do it again... it's pointless and only wastes more of my time.  The entire shoulder area looks like road kill, and at SLC prices that's about $60-70 of landfill material.  Oh, well - -the guy buying those shoulders I had for sale can have this... decide if he wants to use it (which I doubt) or maybe use it as a door mat for people to wipe their feet when they come in.

This is a closer-up.  Click to zoom, and i'll let the pics speak.

Fortunately, I needed a bit of this to line a holster, and the area to the right of that big crease across the whole piece will let me get that project done.  Course, couple hunnert $ for a piece to complete a $100 order doesn't seem to work out so good in the long run   

This isn't the first time, by far.  Only posting this so that others, particularly the 'new guy', can see what leather is SUPPOSED TO look like.  I have some other pics of materials I've ordered if you want to swap horror stories, but meanwhile let me show you what HERMANN OAK calls "B" grade leather.

 

 

 THIS is what you should be seeing when somebody tells you "Hermann Oak B".

[nrk]

damm

they don't learn from lessons and keep pushing junk to ppl

[67flh]

Can it be returned if one is not satisfied with the product?

[JLSleather]

30 minutes ago, 67flh said:

Can it be returned if one is not satisfied with the product?

Yeah, they've taken hides back before.  At some point, ya hafta wonder, .. WHY go through that?  If I order from somebody, they send it, I don't like it, I send it back... so basically I just wasted a week er 10 days.

If it happens ONCE, could be a mistake.  Maybe the new kid in shipping was confused.  If it happens 3 times in 10, that's a trend.  And when it happens 7 in 10, that's a POLICY.

I'll say that I HAVE received some usable leather from SLC, which is why I have given 'em so many opportunities to fly straight.  But never got a piece from there that looked like the leather I get from Hermann Oak.  Which is pretty sad considering this lower grade stuff is sold at 50% ABOVE the cost of the good stuff.

My fault - I knew and jumped in anyway.  I blame.. ME.  So, just offering information.  The money I lose is well spent, actually, to get the project out the door to the customer when I said I would.  Integrity worth more than a few bucks.  Sadly, few see it that way these days.

Edited February 5, 2020 by JLSleather

[Stetson912]

Bummer, I also stopped ordering from them.. well leather anyway. I got some caiman and its junk. Still rawhide in the middle and damn near impossible to cut. I get what I need elsewhere. 

[YinTx]

Someone botched that for sure.  The economy grade I got from them was decidedly better than the photo you are showing.  Sad thing, because there is a lot of potential (read - customers spending the $$) going to waste there at SLC with this kind of action going on.

YinTx

[Tugadude]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the tannery grade the leather?  So if they call it B, then it is their mistake.  Surely SLC or any other distributor places orders with the tannery and specify what they want.  They don't ship the hides and leave it to the customer to decide what it is.

And I don't understand the comment about this being 50% higher than the cost of the good stuff.  Why not just buy the good stuff then?  Confused.

[chrstn53]

53 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the tannery grade the leather?  So if they call it B, then it is their mistake.  Surely SLC or any other distributor places orders with the tannery and specify what they want.  They don't ship the hides and leave it to the customer to decide what it is.

And I don't understand the comment about this being 50% higher than the cost of the good stuff.  Why not just buy the good stuff then?  Confused.

Because the minimal order for the good stuff directly from Herman oak is 20 sides/backs last time I checked. Distributors like SLC let you buy small quantities, so its going to cost a lot more which is understandable. Herman Oak has been around a long time and they would never send out what was pictured and call it B grade, but there are plenty of companies out there that would buy the cheapest stuff they can in bulk and try to pass it off as higher grade leather.

[JLSleather]

6 hours ago, Tugadude said:

And I don't understand the comment about this being 50% higher than the cost of the good stuff.  Why not just buy the good stuff then?  Confused.

Generally what I do.  You're in St. Louis?  Man, just walk across the street to Hermann Oak .  "A" grade leather at right around $8 per foot.   Drive up the path a bit and pick up dyes, finish, lining leathers... all from S-T Leather where you can walk in and pic it!  I need to rearrange a bit to allow for doing that myself.  There are only a couple of people I would trust to do that in my stead, and they're generally busy too.  Haven't flown for a while, but I'm guessing a ticket isn't much more than the cost of ONE crap side of leather.

I did some shopping - I think about every place ever mentioned on this site - so that when people ask where THEY should shop I can give an intelligent answer (FAR too much of this site is "shucks, I don't know BUT here's some words anyway....").  I want to know MYSELF, and it would be good to be able to actually KNOW when others ask.  I guess I'm the "odd man out" -- I tend to give an honest review.  If your work sucks, honest may not be what you're looking for. 

So this is an information about suppliers thread, eh?   I've ordered veg leather from most if not all of the 'retailers' mentioned around here.  Most of the time, that was clearly a bad idea.  I'd say something about it, somebody would recommend another place, and in the end I'd get pretty much the same thing.  So the question "why not just buy the good stuff then" is absolutely correct.  That IS the point here.

It's naive to say that these places are selling you what "the tannery graded".  There are a lot of people - here on this site and others - who have ONLY seen this type of leather, and therefore think that this is NORMAL.. that it's supposed to be that way.  It isn't.  

At the risk of being long-winded, a couple of the "stories"

One guy I called late last year (different source) and asked for ONE side of 4/5 Hermann Oak A grade.  One of the few places that offers  "A".  And from the start, it was like the guy was trying to talk me OUT of "A" grade. 

• I don't mind paying top price as long as I'm getting top shelf stuff. 
• What are you making with it?
• WHAT DOES it matter?  Do you sell HO "A" or not?  This side I want for lining tooled belts and inside of some holsters... SO WHAT? 
• Why dont you buy "economy", since nobody will see it anyway? 
• WELL I WILL SEE IT.  I WILL KNOW. 

Now, WHY would a salesman go out of the way to sell you LESS than what you asked for?  I could get it if they were OUT at the moment.  Maybe should have just hung up the phone right then.  But, they sent me ONE side.  It's not bad, but it's certainly NOT "A", and it was certainly marked up.  Call it relatively inexpensive lesson -- use what I can from that hide and don't go back.

So another guy asked me about getting decent leather, just buying a side or two (under HO minimum order).  SO I told him this ONLY piece I ever ordered from this place was "okay, but not A".  So he ordered a side -- and the piece he got was HORRENDOUS.  When he complained, the guy told him they "don't know how that happened".  TIP:  It happened because THAT is what you stock!

Another place, I had never shopped there but people here seemed to like them.  So to stick my toe in the water, I ordered two sides and two oblong punches.  The leather was NOT the HO "B" advertised and the punches didn't punch (and I whopped em pretty good).  Scratch off the list.. never been back.

And I could go on, but what point?  

8 hours ago, YinTx said:

Someone botched that for sure.  The economy grade I got from them was decidedly better than the photo you are showing.  Sad thing, because there is a lot of potential (read - customers spending the $$) going to waste there at SLC with this kind of action going on.

Yeah, I'm beyond the "could have been an honest mistake" thing.  Its routine there, and has been for years.  I don't think they're losing any money, though.  The markup is high, and as long as they have a steady stream of people willing to buy the basement grade with a significant profit, why stock the real stuff eh? (I don't know that's the mentality, but there is some support for that).

It should be very simple.  I have ONE grade of product.  If it isn't top shelf, it gets destroyed and replaced.  That SHOULD be the case everywhere, but I get that it isn't.  Some people WANT the Ford - fair enough.  WHY buy a Porsche to get groceries, right?  But when they call wanting and willing to pay for the Porsche, WHY would you send the Ford?  Maybe, because you have a line of people who think that Ford is some of the best available... and if you get one that knows better, just "make it right"... you're hardly out anything if you marked up the first 100 fords...

I'm neither learning anything or gaining anything by typing all this.  I could complain around here all day long, nobody would care.  But that wouldn't HELP OTHER folks at all.  

 

 

 

 

[JLSleather]

6 hours ago, chrstn53 said:

Because the minimal order for the good stuff directly from Herman oak is 20 sides/backs last time I checked.

10 I think, but that has to be a single weight.  20 to mix weights.

So expect to spend $1800 or more.  Course, it's better leather, it's $8 per foot, and it's all shipped together so you pay far less shpping than if you bought one or two at a time.

Wickett-Craig tells me "come on out!"... honestly I do not get AT ALL why people who LIVE IN PA order leather from somewhere else.

[Tugadude]

Not in any order by yes, I do live in St. Louis and I actually have been to S&T.  Very nice lady there that pretty much points me to the shelves and I browse to my heart's content.  Very cheap, probably similar to what some small distributors pay their wholesaler.  So there is that.

As far as Hermann Oak, I don't buy enough leather on an annual basis to even warrant stopping in.  I am a hobbyist, never claimed to be anything else.  I buy sides when they are on super-duper specials.  I haven't been in a while, but I used to go to Springfield monthly and would stop into SLC.  Awesome people.  And I could look through the leather and select exactly what pleased me.  They used to have $20.00 sides of oddball stuff and then the price went up to $30.00 and let me tell you there are some very nice leathers available if you can use the colors/thicknesses that they have.  Again, it is odd lots.  I've made a couple of briefcases and messenger bags out of the material and they turned out great.

I don't appreciate being called naive, perhaps the comment wasn't directed at me.  If it was, I'm not losing sleep, but where I come from dealers are typically honest.  Maybe you've found dealers to be less than.  Who knows?

But my point is, when a leather distributor places an order they know what they want, order what they want and should get what they want.  Simple.  If it doesn't happen, then THEY should complain.  If you watch any of the SLC videos you will frequently see Kevin showing sides where maybe 80% of the hide is really nice but there are areas bad enough to where it is graded down.  His point is that the side contains a lot of A, some B and unfortunately some junk.  So they cannot call it A or B, but if you make smallish items you can get a great value.  They don't lie and tell you it is B when it isn't.  I refuse to believe that they do.

I'm sure somewhere there is a company falsely listing leather as better than its actual grade.  Unscrupulous people abound in any business.  But I don't think most do.

Once they buy the leather I suppose they are free to call it "premium", or "select" or otherwise make it sound special and maybe that is misleading.  But I don't think most lie about grading.

Once bitten, twice shy and all of that.  If you really believe that people aren't worth dolng business with, then stop!  But why do we have to hear about it?  They have many happy customers, myself included.  

I recommend instead of posting on forums, people contact the owner of the companies that you are having issues with.  I've met Kevin, Rusy and many others at SLC.  I guarantee they want to get it right.  If they demonstrate that they are incapable of getting it right, then stop!  Remember the definition of insanity?  Or just buy their hardware, tools or something else they cannot screw up.

8 hours ago, chrstn53 said:

Because the minimal order for the good stuff directly from Herman oak is 20 sides/backs last time I checked. Distributors like SLC let you buy small quantities, so its going to cost a lot more which is understandable. Herman Oak has been around a long time and they would never send out what was pictured and call it B grade, but there are plenty of companies out there that would buy the cheapest stuff they can in bulk and try to pass it off as higher grade leather.

Thanks for the response.  Yes, in addition to that, SLC often sells such leather by the square foot, which most providers do not.  In my experience they are very user-friendly.  I'm sure some do buy cheap stuff and then claim it is higher grade.  I don't believe SLC engages in that practice.

[JLSleather]

20 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

As far as Hermann Oak, I don't buy enough leather on an annual basis to even warrant stopping in.  I am a hobbyist, never claimed to be anything else.  I buy sides when they are on super-duper specials. 

Okay with me.  I was talking to the other guys.

22 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

But why do we have to hear about it?  They have many happy customers, myself included.  

You don't.  Click a button, you be somewhere else, just that quick.  I was talking to those who WANT to know.  If that isn't you, feel free to ignore.

No doubt, there are many sucked in with a line.  Hey.. look at this part of this hide.  It says "D" grade, but from right here to right here.. this 4.87" right in there is great.. should be called "A" leather in this 4 tenths of a square foot right between this gouge and those bites....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L7DxnwkiVs

 

[Colt W Knight]

So far, I have had the best luck ordering from Hide House. 

[JLSleather]

 Okay, changed the plan. I did call, and they did say they'd process a return.  Likely would have swapped it out for another piece, too, I'm guessing had I asked.. but no more time to wait on "stuff".  

3 minutes ago, Colt W Knight said:

So far, I have had the best luck ordering from Hide House. 

Thanks - haven't tried them ever.  I'll check that out.  Likely should just buy a bigger splitter, and just deal with the tannery.

[TonySFLDLTHR]

12 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the tannery grade the leather?  So if they call it B, then it is their mistake.  Surely SLC or any other distributor places orders with the tannery and specify what they want.  They don't ship the hides and leave it to the customer to decide what it is.

And I don't understand the comment about this being 50% higher than the cost of the good stuff.  Why not just buy the good stuff then?  Confused.

The stuff from HO is graded before it leaves STL. So, we sell it as what they send it to us as. Hopefully we will have a video showing grading and travel up to HO and have them share how they grade their leather because it is not the same way that import veg gets graded...from what I understand.

 

The pictures posted above do show the rough areas on the neck/shoulder. I will keep and eye out for your return and get it processed through. Also, so we can see the rest of that side, I will grab pictures of it from our photo department to share here.

We try very hard to make sure that we get it right, we are locally owned and have been from the beginning...in fact Kevin is here 6 if not 7 days a week (mostly in leather gathering...to teach our employees there on how to ask the right questions to get the right leathers out). We ship out any where between 300-700 packages a day, that is not to say we get it right every time, but we try. That is why we are so forgiving when we take returns and send labels out so you don't have to pay shipping back.

40 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

 Okay, changed the plan. I did call, and they did say they'd process a return.  Likely would have swapped it out for another piece, too, I'm guessing had I asked.. but no more time to wait on "stuff".  

Thanks - haven't tried them ever.  I'll check that out.  Likely should just buy a bigger splitter, and just deal with the tannery.

I'm glad that you reached out so we have a chance to get this order right for you. Seems though this is not the first order you have had that has come to this. So, if you want...we are a closer drive than PA...so come on down and you are more than welcome to hand pick your leathers out.

If anyone needs to express something different further up the line...here is Rusty's email: Rusty@springfieldleather.com

He said he is more than happy to talk with you. SLC was built on making sure we make our customers successful...so to do anything to negate that does nothing for us. 

[JLSleather]

6 minutes ago, TonySFLDLTHR said:

The pictures posted above do show the rough areas on the neck/shoulder. ... Also, so we can see the rest of that side, I will grab pictures of it from our photo department to share here.

Well, that's significantly understated, but okay.  The shoulder is AN area of problems, but it's not the only one it's just the one under the best light.  The whole skin is dry and stiff, and toward the butt the thickness drops off from .069" (which BTW is over 4 oz) to .053" in a little over a foot (that's pretty steep to me).  There's a splotch about where the hip would be which may be ink-- size of a quarter maybe.  I would have taken other pics but didn't want to manipulate it to the other (better light) table, and it's now packaged for return.  It's rough... you'll immediately wonder, as I did, how that was ever sent out as "B".  I guess we just disagree on what is acceptable tooling leather.

So, let's clarify a bit.  The point here is not to bash anybody, but to INSTRUCT people interested in working with leather.  The point of this site, yes?  Rusty, Kevin, Amanda, and a couple others I talked with about "things' in the past are all certainly polite - nobody suggesting they aren't.  Had I received that same hide from Hermann Oak, I would have had the same reaction to it.

• Tiffany ROCKS.  Give that girl a raise.  Very professionally handled a call that could not have been wonderful fun.  Seriously - KEEP that girl if you can.
• Tony is correct.  Certainly not the first bad batch I've got there.  To continue to do it doesn't pay either of us.

Idunno if I'd DRIVE down... since St Louis is 100+ miles closer for us, doesn't much pay to 'stop in' 100 miles FURTHER to pay 50% MORE unless I happened to be down that way already.  I don't mind paying the extra for the convenience (of picking up one side here and there) but if this is what the mail brings, that's not convenient.  Today, I'm writing this because I'm not lining and sewing that holster, but it only backs us up worse.

[wayner]

Ok I know I'm going to make some people mad here but I really don't give a rats A$$. A certain individual made a comment about why do we have to hear about a complaint from a member about a Vender. Well when you have 30 people that follow you on this site I would say people value your opinion. When you have 2 Followers not so much ! And yes I know I don't post a lot and there's a reason for that. 

[JLSleather]

Off the path, but I see my "allow others to follow you" thingie was turned back on - don't know when or how that happend.   Long time ago I turned it off when I realized that sensitive freak in CA was "following" me... and talkin' like we wuz buddies   posting posts in a clear attempt to make it look like I was endorsing what he says.  I had a couple dozen "followers" before I even knew you could do that here (that's how little I pay attention to that type of thing). 

I personally don't follow nobody.. so if it don't happen in that little thing in the top right of the forum for most recent stuff, I probly won't see it.

Anyway, I haven't ordered at Hermann Oak in 2020, so likely that's the issue.  So we'll see if something changed THAT MUCH of if leather from teh tannery still looks like this ↓

23 hours ago, JLSleather said:

 THIS is what you should be seeing when somebody tells you "Hermann Oak B".

 

[chuck123wapati]

I can understand completely the problems with ordering online and I have one suggestion as this is supposed to be a community of like minded people why cant someone who lives near these stores offer their service to those who don't and set up some arrangements to handpick hides for those who cant. It would be worth the headache and returns, lost time, lost money etc. just to pay or barter a bit to get what you need AND the stores would learn firsthand what the customer wants.

[JLSleather]

See, IF a guy was shopping ANYWAY - he might pick out some hides fer the next guy.  Just have em sent right from the store, so there's no "trouble" there.

Only thing is, you'd have to know who's doin' the pickin'.  No offense, but i met some folks who wouldn't recognize a snake if it bit 'em... and maybe shouldn't be pickin' leather   And THAT was the point of the topic from the beginning.  Some folks DONT KNOW what good leather should look like, so the plan was to show 1) what the good stuff looks like and 2) what is unacceptable and you should not tolerate.

In the end, though.. that's a retailer's JOB.   I can't imagine I'd be in business very long if I showed people a picture of a shiny, well-fitted holster and 'fancy smancy" tooled belt, then took their money and sent them .... something other.  Not really somebody ELSE'S job to see that i do mine.  I'm pretty clear.. and I always say I don't mind PAYING premium as long as I'm GETTING premium. 

[chuck123wapati]

1 minute ago, JLSleather said:

See, IF a guy was shopping ANYWAY - he might pick out some hides fer the next guy.  Just have em sent right from the store, so there's no "trouble" there.

Only thing is, you'd have to know who's doin' the pickin'.  No offense, but i met some folks who wouldn't recognize a snake if it bit 'em... and maybe shouldn't be pickin' leather   And THAT was the point of the topic from the beginning.  Some folks DONT KNOW what good leather should look like, so the plan was to show 1) what the good stuff looks like and 2) what is unacceptable and you should not tolerate.

In the end, though.. that's a retailer's JOB.   I can't imagine I'd be in business very long if I showed people a picture of a shiny, well-fitted holster and 'fancy smancy" tooled belt, then took their money and sent them .... something other.  Not really somebody ELSE'S job to see that i do mine.  I'm pretty clear.. and I always say I don't mind PAYING premium as long as I'm GETTING premium. 

That's where a more personal partnership would help, yea you cant trust everybody or anybody  but you can trust somebody, its been done for centuries and still today businesses have buyers that handpick Think Japanese fish market just for an example. Its a sensible suggestion and would end your problems. Retailers obviously aren't doing it so have it done by someone you can trust.

[RockyAussie]

7 hours ago, TonySFLDLTHR said:

The stuff from HO is graded before it leaves STL. So, we sell it as what they send it to us as. Hopefully we will have a video showing grading and travel up to HO and have them share how they grade their leather because it is not the same way that import veg gets graded...from what I understand.

 

The pictures posted above do show the rough areas on the neck/shoulder. I will keep and eye out for your return and get it processed through. Also, so we can see the rest of that side, I will grab pictures of it from our photo department to share here.

We try very hard to make sure that we get it right, we are locally owned and have been from the beginning...in fact Kevin is here 6 if not 7 days a week (mostly in leather gathering...to teach our employees there on how to ask the right questions to get the right leathers out). We ship out any where between 300-700 packages a day, that is not to say we get it right every time, but we try. That is why we are so forgiving when we take returns and send labels out so you don't have to pay shipping back.

I'm glad that you reached out so we have a chance to get this order right for you. Seems though this is not the first order you have had that has come to this. So, if you want...we are a closer drive than PA...so come on down and you are more than welcome to hand pick your leathers out.

If anyone needs to express something different further up the line...here is Rusty's email: Rusty@springfieldleather.com

He said he is more than happy to talk with you. SLC was built on making sure we make our customers successful...so to do anything to negate that does nothing for us. 

Seems to me that when you do good business you grow bigger and gotta also get good staff to keep gettin better still. ( that can be hard) Being a paying site sponsor here ( helps keep the lights on) and  a frequent contributor I have to say that having a supplier that is prepared to pay the shipping back if they get it wrong is a very GOOD sign of wanting to get it right.  I have to thank @TonySFLDLTHR for sending me out (For Free) some snaps to try out awhile back and report that they were a lot better than the ones I bought here in Australia in recent times. I guess they can try to apply pressure on the original suppliers to mark the hides better but somewhere down the line them hides gotta go. Being able to go and pick through the best will of course leave the more suspect ones behind.  If I get something crappy I just give em a ring and normally they knock the price way back or tell me to keep it and send me another one if I need it. Sugar catches more flies than vinegar is what I have found. A free banner at the bottom sort of thingy if you get what I mean. As for followers and any influence that that may have, I have a bit more than a couple myself and maybe this may help give some balance perhaps. AS to who I follow ...I do that with a few but only those whose skills I admire and JLS is one of them few.

[JLSleather]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

S to who I follow ...I do that with a few but only those whose skills I admire and JLS is one of them few.

Well let me say thanks for that, with the caveat ...

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

but somewhere down the line them hides gotta go. Being able to go and pick through the best will of course leave the more suspect ones behind.  If I get something crappy I just give em a ring and normally they knock the price way back or tell me to keep it and send me another one if I need it.

I  will not tell my customers 'here's some low end, less than what you paid for goods... it all has to move".  If I got it from a supplier that way, that's who I need to take it up with (not the customer). 

This hide free of charge saves them some shipping charges back (which they paid), but doesn't aid me.  There was no part of it i wanted to use, so free doesn't help.  Kinda like being punched in the eye - just cuz it's free doesn't make a guy want another one. 

My issue at the moment is that order WILL go out RIGHT, but it WONT go out ON TIME.  MY FAULT for letting that weight get down to cutting it that close, so I'm gonna bear that.

In the end, I don't mind paying MORE than i pay at HO in  exchange for the storage space and convenience.  But I need the leather to look like that picture of the stuff I get from HO.  I've always been clear about what I want - top shelf stuff ALWAYS.  Pretty simple to just say you don't have that if you don't have that. 

 

5 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Its a sensible suggestion

It IS a good theory, I'll say that.

[Mark842]

I do regular business with Hide house using their oil tanned and Chrome tanned leathers. They are fantastic people and the leather I get from them is great. Trust me though, don't bother trying their veg tan if HO A quality is what you are after. It's a lot better than what you just received but it won't compare. My main complaint is major fluctuations in thickness. They think when you order a 4/5 that a 4/6.5 is Ok. not to mention you can order the same weight in veg 3 different times and 3 different thicknesses.

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

1 hour ago, Mark842 said:

I do regular business with Hide house using their oil tanned and Chrome tanned leathers. They are fantastic people and the leather I get from them is great. Trust me though, don't bother trying their veg tan if HO A quality is what you are after. It's a lot better than what you just received but it won't compare. My main complaint is major fluctuations in thickness. They think when you order a 4/5 that a 4/6.5 is Ok. not to mention you can order the same weight in veg 3 different times and 3 different thicknesses.

That is exactly the same experience I had with Hide House's Hermann Oak strap.  I think I ordered a 4/5 and got a 6/7.  No matter because I did end up using it all anyway, and it was pretty good stuff.  But I'd did need that 4/5!  My main gripe with Hide House is that it takes forever to get my order.  I know I'm a long way from Cali, but it's 2 or 3 days before they even ship after getting my order.  It's easy a week or ten days from order to delivery with them.  I tried Panhandle last week for the first time ever, because HH was out of silver metallic.  I ordered from Panhandle on Friday, my leather showed up Tuesday morning.  The guy sent me two or 3 sets of pictures on my cell phone because he really wanted to make sure he was sending what I needed.  Pretty good service, I might go back.