Are leather sewing machine makers lazy

[chrisash]

Really not just leather machines but basically all except the Sailrite company

I admit I spend some time on YouTube and often come across Sailrite videos, if you look at their site you find a mass of information about both their machines and popular items on how to make items, plus full details of the parts and fault finding

My point is whilst others just advertise their machines with a few basic facts about them little is really done to build confidence that the companies really care for anything apart from money, They have the knowledge and keep it to themselves even Juki give you the basics and maybe a rating video but little else

The web is a fantastic way to sell, just like Sailrite shows, maybe time others followed suite you never know maybe including service manuals and strip down diagrams or say methods of setups for different materials. so much they could offer to make you buy from them instead of say another make or clone

Edited February 11, 2022 by chrisash

[MtlBiker]

That amazing customer support from Sailrite, both direct via email and phone, plus the incredible videos they post, is the main reason I bought my LSZ-1 Premium with WorkerB motor.  The machine is really good, but what puts this head and shoulders above most others is that support.

[Spyros]

Makers and sellers are often entirely different companies.   The maker is usually in China and has nothing to do with you as a customer, it's the seller/distributor in your country that you want to be more active.  

[chrisash]

OK change it to Seller/ Distributer or maker It's still poor marketing lost opportunity at little cost but great service. Yes there are YouTube video's done by others on the internet about for instance Upholstery or sewing leather but little or nothing on the sites selling machines

Edited February 11, 2022 by chrisash

[kgg]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

It's still poor marketing lost opportunity at little cost but great service.

Finding reviews / video's / capabilities / specs of industrial sewing machines in general are pretty much left up to the individual dealers to provide whereas if you were looking for a domestic sewing machine there are many sites that do sort of side by side comparisons of different manufacturers machines. I guess the leather part of the industry is just too small / specialized area in the overall scheme of things. Also not every dealer / distributor has the expertise / want to provide the same level of information as the Sailrite site.

kgg

[DrmCa]

We the hobbyists and mom and pop shops may not be their main customer base. Could they be more active in the corporate segment from which they get most of their profits?

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

OK change it to Seller/ Distributor or maker It's still poor marketing lost opportunity at little cost but great service. Yes there are YouTube video's done by others on the internet about for instance Upholstery or sewing leather but little or nothing on the sites selling machines

The dealers I know are very small businesses, often with one or two people on the job. There isn't much time to do videos when your day involves taking orders, setting up, shipping, receiving, picking up, ordering, or repairing sewing machines, while also responding to email, phone and forum inquiries.

Larger companies, with numerous employees, have more time to setup a video room and learn to do it correctly.

[Matt S]

9 hours ago, chrisash said:

Really not just leather machines but basically all except the Sailrite company

I admit I spend some time on YouTube and often come across Sailrite videos, if you look at their site you find a mass of information about both their machines and popular items on how to make items, plus full details of the parts and fault finding

My point is whilst others just advertise their machines with a few basic facts about them little is really done to build confidence that the companies really care for anything apart from money, They have the knowledge and keep it to themselves even Juki give you the basics and maybe a rating video but little else

The web is a fantastic way to sell, just like Sailrite shows, maybe time others followed suite you never know maybe including service manuals and strip down diagrams or say methods of setups for different materials. so much they could offer to make you buy from them instead of say another make or clone

Sailrite are largely aimed at the amateur/hobby market, perhaps edging into the "sell enough to make a few bucks profit a month" level. Professionals don't tend to need to be advertised at -- if they're a small concern individual workers tend to have institutional knowledge from wherever they studied, and if they're larger concerns they either have an in-house technician to know these sorts of things or they go to a dealer and say "I need X number of machines that have Y capability. How fast do they go and what are your financing options?"

Amateur/hobby leatherwork is a vanishingly tiny market for sewing machine manufacturers. Some dealers (such as Weaver) spend considerable resources to cater to that market because they reckon it's worth it. Most don't, and I can't really blame them for that. Same for manufacturers -- I bet Juki sells 1,000 industrial machines to manufacturers for every one they sell for someone to use for a hobby or one-man-band craft business. Juki turned over $657 million last year, and I doubt if even one tenth of a percent of that was selling industrial sewing machines to amateurs or hobbyists. I certainly don't call it laziness if they think they have bigger fish to fry than spoon-feeding Bill from Thraxton on the nuances between a pendulum and parallel feed.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Matt S

[tsunkasapa]

If you buy a car/truck, do you expect the manufacturer to teach you how to drive? When you buy a sewing machine is it up to the company to teach you how to use it? That ball is in your court.

[Spyros]

10 hours ago, chrisash said:

OK change it to Seller/ Distributer or maker It's still poor marketing lost opportunity at little cost but great service. Yes there are YouTube video's done by others on the internet about for instance Upholstery or sewing leather but little or nothing on the sites selling machines

If you look at who those dealers are, you'll find in most countries it's like a dude and his wife sort of thing.  Sewing machines sales are so infrequent that this is all it takes, but it probably leaves no time for marketing activities.

[Spyros]

19 minutes ago, tsunkasapa said:

If you buy a car/truck, do you expect the manufacturer to teach you how to drive? 

No, but I would go through driving lessons with an instructor and pass a test and get a license first.  And then if if the car breaks there are authorised service stations and mechanics in your neighbourhood.

In sewing machines you pay a not-so-insignificant amount of money and then you're on your own.  With instructions and guesstimates given by people on a forum, from the other side of the planet, out of the kindness of their heart basically.  Because your other option is to pack the machine on a pallet and pay to send it back where it came from, and then wait for weeks for the mom and pop dealer to do something about it.

Chrisash is not wrong, it is a little bit crazy if you think about it.    

[Constabulary]

A lot of small business even struggle with their websites and still run a late 1990´s style website w/o a proper web shop. Some probably never have heard of https or responsive designs. Sailrite is creating demand with their videos - like see what you can do / what is possible - you can do that too / why don´t you DIY?  They understand marketing  and created a well known brand and they can deliver all you need for certain project at open stop. They do it the smart way and they are big enough / have enough employees to do so.

18 minutes ago, Spyros said:

No, but I would go through driving lessons with an instructor and pass a test and get a license first.  And then if if the car breaks there are authorised service stations and mechanics in your neighbourhood.

In sewing machines you pay a not-so-insignificant amount of money and then you're on your own.  With instructions and guesstimates given by people on a forum, from the other side of the planet, out of the kindness of their heart basically.  Because your other option is to pack the machine on a pallet and pay to send it back where it came from, and then wait for weeks for the mom and pop dealer to do something about it.

Depends on your location and there is a bigger demand on car service than on sewing machine service I guess. How many people with a car do you know in your street and how many with a sewing machine? Cars are more complex too. You can be with cars on your own too - not impossible.

There s no simple answer that covers all aspects why certain Co´s or businesses do or don´t do this or that. But a lot depends on the Co. size / number of employees.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Constabulary

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, Constabulary said:

Depends on your location and there is a bigger demand on car service than on sewing machine service I guess. How many people with a car do you know in your street and how many with a sewing machine? Cars are more complex too. You can be with cars on your own too - not impossible.

Not impossible, just unthinkable.  Car sales would plummet 90% if you told people they have to learn to drive, maintain and repair their car on their own, with the help of a 5 page manual in Chin-glish.

By the way cars is not my analogy, it's Tsunkasapa's, I'm just explaining why it's a bad one.  Cars have a *massive* support network, sewing machines have close to zero.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Spyros

[Wizcrafts]

20 minutes ago, Spyros said:

Cars have a *massive* support network, sewing machines have close to zero.

In a nutshell, that's what this forum is here for. It exists to discuss industrial leather sewing machines and help others experiencing problems who don't have access to dealer support. A lot of these machines are long out of production, but there is usually somebody with knowledge of the machine in question, or our database can be searched for previous discussions about your machine. We have many manuals that members have uploaded for other members to download for free. Even some sewing machine dealers and repairers take part in assisting members with technical problems. This is a wonderful asset.

[trash treasure]

Thank you, Wiz -

Sailrite is all about marketing to amateur DIY's - That has always been their main thrust, and most professional sailmakers shop elsewhere for their supplies. Although they DO offer some professional services, those are in the background, and you don't see them advertised.

This forum, on the other hand, is all about knowledge, and the information needed to use this heavy duty sewing equipment, new or used. I think most vendors here assume that, as a customer,  you're already on a level where you know what you want to do, and don't need to be "marketed" to. That doesn't mean they won't help if you need info - They're just not expecting to need to spoon feed it, as Sailrite does.

[Spyros]

37 minutes ago, trash treasure said:

I think most vendors here assume that, as a customer,  you're already on a level where you know what you want to do, and don't need to be "marketed" to. 

Nah I don't think so... they just don't have the resources.

[chuck123wapati]

16 hours ago, Matt S said:

Sailrite are largely aimed at the amateur/hobby market, perhaps edging into the "sell enough to make a few bucks profit a month" level. Professionals don't tend to need to be advertised at -- if they're a small concern individual workers tend to have institutional knowledge from wherever they studied, and if they're larger concerns they either have an in-house technician to know these sorts of things or they go to a dealer and say "I need X number of machines that have Y capability. How fast do they go and what are your financing options?"

Amateur/hobby leatherwork is a vanishingly tiny market for sewing machine manufacturers. Some dealers (such as Weaver) spend considerable resources to cater to that market because they reckon it's worth it. Most don't, and I can't really blame them for that. Same for manufacturers -- I bet Juki sells 1,000 industrial machines to manufacturers for every one they sell for someone to use for a hobby or one-man-band craft business. Juki turned over $657 million last year, and I doubt if even one tenth of a percent of that was selling industrial sewing machines to amateurs or hobbyists. I certainly don't call it laziness if they think they have bigger fish to fry than spoon-feeding Bill from Thraxton on the nuances between a pendulum and parallel feed.

Leather machines are industrial machines intended for companies that train their workers. 

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, Spyros said:

No, but I would go through driving lessons with an instructor and pass a test and get a license first.  And then if if the car breaks there are authorised service stations and mechanics in your neighbourhood.

In sewing machines you pay a not-so-insignificant amount of money and then you're on your own.  With instructions and guesstimates given by people on a forum, from the other side of the planet, out of the kindness of their heart basically.  Because your other option is to pack the machine on a pallet and pay to send it back where it came from, and then wait for weeks for the mom and pop dealer to do something about it.

Chrisash is not wrong, it is a little bit crazy if you think about it.    

you are right cars aren't the best example maybe. But you know the automotive industry has a diagnostic program in all vehicles and an interface right on the dash that could easily tell the owner the same info as the mechanic but guess what you cant see it or use it unless you buy special equipment.

Buy a professional/industrial grade wood lathe or any other professional/industrial grade machine of any sort and see what you get for service, training or instructions. Professional/industrial comes with the assumption that you know how to use your equipment.

[chrisash]

I think a few of you are missing the point, its all about marketing and selling, its not just about sewing machines, its more about "Just take it or leave it" web sites or those who make a difference and prove they offer support and service, think of their customers needs and try and find solutions that help

Consider how helpful this link is to new users https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html a good basic help that costs peanuts

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

In a nutshell, that's what this forum is here for. It exists to discuss industrial leather sewing machines and help others experiencing problems who don't have access to dealer support. A lot of these machines are long out of production, but there is usually somebody with knowledge of the machine in question, or our database can be searched for previous discussions about your machine. We have many manuals that members have uploaded for other members to download for free. Even some sewing machine dealers and repairers take part in assisting members with technical problems. This is a wonderful asset.

And you are awesome at it!!!! 

[gordond]

8 hours ago, chrisash said:

I think a few of you are missing the point, its all about marketing and selling, its not just about sewing machines,

Consider how bad it was pre internet days .. there are a few forum stories on the sheer frustration members experienced then ... And it almost continues to present day*  - which is the gist of this.. a shame really. (*except for the sellers who are bannered on this forum - who directly work one on one with their customers to get the correct setup - yes the traditional way and one has to call..but the feedback has been very good - a far cry from my part of the world - I ended calling Lenny or Gregg RIP )

Hence this forum

I found very quickly in 1983 that "you need an industrial to do that - find a specialist " and that they didn't actually exist in the country I live in.Why -  simply sales volume of commonly used equipment... A walking foot to sew upholstery vs harness machine - sales might be 40 to 1 (or none).. another point is thread size - anything above 138 these folks were lost - well out of their experience.

in my case at that time was to find a maker to advise (very reluctant to share info ..it was almost like you had to provide a secret handshake to get in - not kidding!) - and sellers were no help at all - they shouldn't have been in that business in the first place - in fact recently I've had 2 dealings where I had to advise them on what is needed - shaking my head considering they are going to incorrectly advise the next buyer and probably won't care.

It really is a specialist market.

On a side note (which piqued my interest in this post)... Been buying a lot of Triton woodworking gear - 3 units -different set ups/versions - exceedingly cheap used ($50,$65,$15) - got what I need so will sell one as have the router sled table /saw table/ extension table ... Suits my lack of space (it folds up) and will meet my needs of accuracy - can't deal with a heavy panel saw  ....and again on the cheaper cast top panel saws ~ $1400+ - it's "take it or leave it" complete with a chinglish manual - no dealer support beyond warranty.... leaving one to find other users how to assemble and tune it ..... - exactly the same issue per this post.

   ... here's a 3 hour video from the original 1984 VHS tape - nows that's the way to support and help your customer. Very smart marketing - they did well.

 

[Spyros]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:07 AM, Matt S said:

Sailrite are largely aimed at the amateur/hobby market, perhaps edging into the "sell enough to make a few bucks profit a month" level. Professionals don't tend to need to be advertised at -- if they're a small concern individual workers tend to have institutional knowledge from wherever they studied, and if they're larger concerns they either have an in-house technician to know these sorts of things or they go to a dealer and say "I need X number of machines that have Y capability. How fast do they go and what are your financing options?"

Amateur/hobby leatherwork is a vanishingly tiny market for sewing machine manufacturers. Some dealers (such as Weaver) spend considerable resources to cater to that market because they reckon it's worth it. Most don't, and I can't really blame them for that. Same for manufacturers -- I bet Juki sells 1,000 industrial machines to manufacturers for every one they sell for someone to use for a hobby or one-man-band craft business. Juki turned over $657 million last year, and I doubt if even one tenth of a percent of that was selling industrial sewing machines to amateurs or hobbyists. I certainly don't call it laziness if they think they have bigger fish to fry than spoon-feeding Bill from Thraxton on the nuances between a pendulum and parallel feed.

I think you have it backwards here Matt.  

From page 14 in Juki's corporate report, their sales (in value) are 61% household and 39% industrial.   For their industrial sector, in page 21, they list their 2nd and 3rd main services (after #1 "providing reliable machines") as:

2. Providing sewing machine functions and sewing knowledge at the workshop. We hold workshops periodically with customers to deepen their knowledge about sewing and their experience with sewing machine functions by dividing the sewing hobby genres into “dressmaking,” “small articles and bags,” “doll costumes,” and “quilts.” The workshops are directed by artists who excel at producing the articles with the best machines for the task. 

3. Providing sales and technical support covering the world. Our customers are supported by a global sales and technical network for industrial sewing machines. JUKI holds various workshops on sewing machine mechanisms, techniques to achieve beautiful seams, and methods to use and maintain products to offer “peace of mind.”

And if you go to their website, under "Industrial sewing machines", there is a crapload under E-Learning, workshop design, parts list, manuals, the lot.

 

Now, that's Juki, their industrial sewing machine sector is worth about $300m sales a year, so they're big enough and sell expensive machines.   So you could say they are mainly aimed at big, automated industrial operations who can afford these prices.  And still they offer *a lot* of education and support.

The cheaper ones (basically the clones, Cowboy/Cobra/Techsew) absolutely have a significant clientele of one man operations and hobbyists for their industrial machines, as proven for example by this video: 

 

This video has 80k views, that's not the technician at the Nike factory or the procurement manager at Luis Vuitton watching it, they have better sources and they wouldn't buy clones anyway.  That's 80k randoms like me who have bought it or are close to buying it and are scrambling for resources to figure out how the damn thing works.   And 80k customers/potential customers for a very specialised machine in a very small & niche market is a *huge* number for those small companies.

The point I'm trying to make is that providing information and support to all types of customers is absolutely in the best interest of every company, big and small alike.  It's just that some companies like Juki have the resources to do it, and others don't.

The other thing you said that professionals and big concerns don't need to be advertised at, I disagree with that as well.  They get advertised & marketed at and outright chased but through different channels: roadshows, house visits and presentations with targeted material, tenders, and outright bribes sometimes :D

And I also disagree with the idea that leatherworking is a vanishing hobby.  Maybe people are saying so because they see that Tandy is near death, but that's just because people got smarter with their shopping.   And most people find it easier to look for a video that answers their question instantly rather than post a question at LW.net and wait a day for an answer, so you won't see them in numbers in this forum either.  Youtube has given a big boost to people who google "how to make a pouch".   Just look at the views man, look at how many online shops with super-specialised stuff there are on Etsy and Ebay.  That's not vanishing, that looks more like booming to me.  

BTW out of curiosity, what are the considerable resources that Weaver has invested in the hobbyist market?   Chuck Dorsett doing a series of short videos by himself and sending some stuff to Corter Leather and Jimmy DiResta to use online?  Is that it?

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

12 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Buy a professional/industrial grade wood lathe or any other professional/industrial grade machine of any sort and see what you get for service, training or instructions. Professional/industrial comes with the assumption that you know how to use your equipment.

I haven't bought a wood lathe, I made my own :D

But I was very close to the purchase of 5 axis C&C from Taiwan for a cabinet making operation 3 years ago (the owner is a friend), and these people in Taiwan were connected online 24/7 and monitoring & tuning the machine remotely from their head office, and they had a tech 24/7 chat service because that was their preferred mode of communication.  Which actually worked very well because talking on the phone to someone with a accent can be exhausting.  I also remember they didn't have a dealer in AU so a guy flew in for a week for the installation and training.  It took weeks to get the thing perfect, after that the cabinet maker's questions dwindled, but they remained available and kept monitoring the machine online.   

But that machine was in the hundreds of thousands.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

By the way, I don't think that the 441 and various clones are actual industrial machines.  I know we call them that to differentiate from household fabric machines, and maybe they were industrial years ago, but not in 2022.  Why do I say this?  Because if you look at what Juki recommends on their website to actual industrial manufacturing operations, the type that have a whole factory floor full of machines, they recommend computerised machines.  Juki sells automation, remote monitoring, robotic arms, and integrated connected systems of all sorts.

The machines that we buy and talk about here are just machines suitable for leather, that's all.  And it wouldn't surprise me if they are sold predominantly to small businesses and hobbyists, and maybe some cheaper mass production operations in places with cheap labour.    

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[chuck123wapati]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

I haven't bought a wood lathe, I made my own :D

But I was very close to the purchase of 5 axis C&C from Taiwan for a cabinet making operation 3 years ago (the owner is a friend), and these people in Taiwan were connected online 24/7 and monitoring & tuning the machine remotely from their head office, and they had a tech 24/7 chat service because that was their preferred mode of communication.  Which actually worked very well because talking on the phone to someone with a accent can be exhausting.  I also remember they didn't have a dealer in AU so a guy flew in for a week for the installation and training.  It took weeks to get the thing perfect, after that the cabinet maker's questions dwindled, but they remained available and kept monitoring the machine online.   

But that machine was in the hundreds of thousands.

so whats you point? You have proven you don't really need a video , 24 /7 backup, instant service and training  if you know what you are doing. Plus you almost bought something and almost knew how well the service was? but they didn't really have a dealer in you whole country to go to for service even for a hundreds of thousands of dollar machine.