Goldshot Ron

After reading this post, I feel that there is a little confusion in regards to the type of leathers that can be used. Tooling leather and skirting leather are tanned the same. So as mentioned, you can use 8/9 oz. veg tanned leather for you bag flaps, fronts, and backs. Some people will used 6/7 or 7/8 once chap leather for the gussets. Chap leather is chrome tanned, and most of the time is more flexible than veg tanned leather. Some people even make the entire bag out of chap leather. You can also use latigo leather for gussets, 6/7 oz. If you are going to decorate the flaps or fronts with tooling, then you'll have to used veg tanned leather (skirting leather or tooling leather). However, your first post sounds like you want soft, flexible saddle bags. If I am correct, then you'll need to consider buying chrome tanned leather. I hope that I'm not confusing your original post, and, if I've muddied up the post, please comment. Ron

I'm looking for a 1 3/4" diameter concho used on an F.O. Baird saddle. Unknown date of saddle. The concho is attached with 2 half inch wide loops on the rear. Can anyone help? Thanks, Ron

Tom, Your repair looks good. I hope you made some money on this project. Ron

My usual way of preparing my skirts is the same way as you'll find in the Stohlman books. The top of the skirts and the filler pieces are glued together, then the sheep skin is glued to the skirts, and one line of stitching holding everything together. However, I feel when using inskirt rigged saddles the extra stitchline helps reinforce the skirts to make the saddle more secure and stronger. I've seen too many inskirt saddles where the stitching has rotted away or torn, and the only things holding the saddle to the horse are a few concho screws. You can use a single stitchline if you want to prepare your skirts. There are no set rules. I tend to over engineer everything I make just to be safe.

OK...that's a photo I posted earlier this year. This saddle had a rear jockey so the installment of the flank ring is different than a set of skirts without a rear jockey. With that said: first, determine the design of your skirts and block them. This is easier done prior to putting in your seat. After installing your seat, come back to your skirts and align your top piece. Cut your leather oversize on the outside edges of your bottom piece. Using rubber cement glue the bottom and top pieces together to insure fit. Fitting up includes rigging placement. When satisfied with the skirts on the tree, remove the skirts from the tree (without pulling the cemented skirts apart) and compare them to each other to insure they're alike. Trim your top piece to match the bottom piece and attach your rigging plates and dees. Check your edges once more, sanding them if necessary to insure that they are cut at a 90 degrees. When satisfied, sew them together about 3/8ths of an inch from edge. If your skirting leather is light weight, you can install filler pieces as you would regular skirts; however, this isn't necessary with heavy weight leather and does increase bulk. These skirts are held into place on the bars with screws at the fork, at the cantle corner at the bars (covered by seat jockey), and rear rosettes or conchos. The sheepskin is installed as usual and the sitch line is about 3/16ths from the edge. I'm old, but not an old saddle maker. This method has worked for me on three saddles without any client complaints, knock on wood. Hope this helps, Ron

You need to repost your photo...I can't see your photo to see what you are talking about. If you are asking about using inskirt rigging and how to attach it to the bars without using rear jockeys there are some different steps not shown in Stohlman's books; and, I haven't seen any procedures in any other saddle making books. Ron

I tired posting photos earlier to show how to practice lacing and the different styles of lacing patterns, but my photos were too large in size. Hopefully these will give some idea of how I've practiced lacing before trying on the finished product. One picture shows the front of the braid, the other shows the back. Ron

I'm too lazy to walk to the shop and check Stohlman's Book, but I recommend practicing on scrap leather first, and try differenet patterns before jumping into lacing the fork cover. With that said, I'd recommend using 3/8" lace made from latigo leather. Split it down to about 2-3 oz. and bevel the edges. Now, saddle soap the string and rub the heck out of it. When you think that it's good, apply some more saddle soap and rub some more. Stohlman suggests punching your holes a little less apart than the width of your lace. This is okay if you're a pro, but it risks splitting the leather out between the holes when pulling the sting. Good luck,

If you don't already have it, I'd suggest you pick up Stohlman's Encyclopedia of Saddle Making Vol. 2. I shows how to make welts, and is a good source for other information. Like Joel mentioned, your swells are quite pronounced, and it would be difficult (as you have noticed) to pull the leather down into the rigging location of the swell without major wrinkles. Ron

As Rufus said, it's up to you to use your imagination. However, what are your dimensions on the different components? Your browband appears too large compared to the other parts of the bridle. If you burnish and rub the edges of the straps, you would have a more attractive piece. Also, lining your work will give you a stronger piece of tack, and a more attractive look. If you don't want to line your straps, you could also apply Fiebing's Leather Balm to the flesh side of the straps so they don't absorb swet. Ron

Joel, New thought about Sam Stag rigging. Originally it was rigged at centerfire position, with no flanch cinch. The positioning and attachment of the rear bar strap was equally important to hold the saddle on the horse, like a McCelland. With that said, you need to figure in your rear ring style also. This plays an important part of how the narrow (around the horn) strap will be placed and secured. If not done properly, the front ring may swing or pivot back and forth as the horse moves, especially as the latigo slackens during a ride. You may have noticed on saddles 3 and 5, the fork botton attachs the wide strap to the bars. This helps keep the ring in the desired rigging position, but may pull out with wear, and torque on the latigo ring. I'm still looking for pictures. Ron

Joel, I've looked in several sources (probably all that you've looked at), and none show the reverse side. I'd bet you, there is no one "best" way to do it. I haven't used the Sam Stagg rigging, so I can't offer any suggestions from experience. In Harry Adams book he talks a little about the history of this rigging. To keep with the essence of this style, I'd suggest braiding the straps together at the ring, and avoid using rivets and screws. Harry mentioned that this style was used when nails and screws were not readily available. I would think that even attaching the straps to the bars with screws would defeat the purpose of the strap over the fork, and maybe even weaken the strap. Please post your saddle when done, good luck. Ron

Following Oldtimer's first post...Timberline Trees can build you a good tree. I recently received a Butch Cassidy tree that I'm using as a period style saddle. The turn around for the tree was great (less than 4 weeks), and I like the way it fits my quarter horse. Now, with that said, you need to sit down and really draw up your plans for the saddle. That requires a lot, and I mean a lot of research. As Oltoot mentioned, if you are shooting for authentic realism can result in a saddle that doesn't see the back of a horse if not done correctly. If this is your first saddle attemp, you may want to reconsider building a period style saddle, and start with just a basic ranch style saddle. Period saddles require a different rigging style that a first timer may not really understand. The seat of a period style saddle is different also. Rigging and seat are your most important things that a saddle maker needs to consider and understand (after getting a well made tree). I could be wrong because there's a person on this site that her first saddle makes me sad to say that I "build saddles"; but, I can't emphasize too many times, learn the basics before starting your masterpiece. Good Luck

Attached is a photo of one way to attach inskirt rigged skirts to a tree. As mentioned, pockets are created within the skirts to insert the ends of the bars. The skirts are then attached with screws as normal. These skirts will not have rear jockeys attached.

OK...I've been busy lately, but, your first question was in regards to rivets on breast collars versus sewing. I've only owned horses and ridden for 60 years, so I do not claim to be an expert. You first mentioned copper rivets. They are a good choice for a rivet because they don't rust. They work well on thick leather, but for headstalls and belts you would use a #14 size. This size is hard to set the burr on, and adds too much weight or bulk that is not necessarily needed. I only use copper, chrome on brass, and stainless steel splash rivets so they don't rust (cost more than chrome on steel). Chicago screws should be used on items that may need frequent change over with buckles or straps as Jaclynn mentioned. I try to avoid chicago screws on bit ends of headstalls because they do come unscrewed when least appreciated. However, your first question was in regards to breast collars. I would not use chicago screws on a breast collar. If you are concerned about changing buckles, you might consider using a conway buckle. They are good for straps of 1 inch width and under, but can be a hastle to install and adjust. Heck, you can even buckstitch items and use no other type of fasteners (metal nor thread). Just a few more thoughts to ponder. It's your project, be creative.

Chris, For setting copper rivets you'll need a ball peen hammer, a rivet setter, and a steel plate or avil to back the leather for support when setting the rivets. I also suggest sewing your tack pieces and using rivets at stress points. I've included a couple of pictures showing a 1 inch wide leather breast collar which was sewn and rivetted at the stress points. Stitching adds strength, and improves the appearance of your work. Ron

Your strap cutter may not be the problem. Herman Oak has a problem with rawhide in the butt area. Recently, I had the same problem as you. While cutting my stirrup leathers along the back my draw gauge blade could not even make a dent in the leather. It was like pulling it through a 2x4 board. After a little cussing and questioning my tools, I realized it was the side of leather that I started on. Since then I've talked with an experienced saddle maker who has had the same experience with Herman Oak. Ron

The page that I attached shows the flow of his style. What you will normally see in an example such as this page is a reverse of the arrows. When carving a sheridan pattern you usually have an eternal circle; where there is no obvious start. This still holds true with Andrus' method. By following the arrows (up to down) with a design, it assists in drawing the conjoining lines that form the leaves, stems, and scrolls. He uses the Gardner book on Sheridan Style in his class; but, his class for me was an "duh...I get it" moment.

Gordon uses the Sheridan style of tooling, but his acanthus leaves are larger and fill in more area. His approach to flow of the pattern starts at the top of the vinework and flows down to the start of the vine; instead of starting at the ground and moving upward. I found that this technique helped me with my leaves being more flowing than starting at the ground level or bottom of the design and working upward. The two photos show some of his work.

Josh, Your saddle came out well. I like how your border drops down from the fork even with your rigging border. That shows some planning on your part, and it works well. I agree with CW about your jockeys being a little too high. But, that is not often realized until it's too late. I can't count how many times that I have remade rear jockeys because the original ones just didn't "cut the muster". The shape of your seat looks good; hey, this is a great looking saddle. Ron

Tim, You didn't mention how your skirts were attached to the tree: tugs, pockets, or inskirt rigging. Sometimes a maker will sew pockets on the skirts to insert the ends of the bars into these pockets. Some makers will sew these pockets on by sewing through the pocket leather the skirts, and the fleece. When resewing pockets, always use the same stitch holes; and in the case of going through the fleece style, you'll have to sew this type of pocket on after tacking the skirt to the tree. If you stitch this style of pocket (pocket, skirt, fleece) together prior to attaching to the tree, the saddle won't fit back onto the bars correctly. One last OPINION, don't but back all of the nails that you might have removed from the fleece side of the skirts. I have removed up to 12-16 ring shank nails from the bottom of factory made saddles. This is over kill, and makes it more likely that a nail may work it's way out to sore up a horse's back. Ron

I just got home from Wickenburg, and I want to recommend a tooling class taught by Gordon Andrus of Sage Creek Saddlery in Utah. This was offered during the Leather and Saddlers Journel trade show. Gordon has an interesting tooling technique that is quit impressive. His three day class was well worth the tuition. I recommend this class for anyone wanting to advance their tooling skills. It is not for beginners, but people looking for new techniques and a fresh new approach to design and tooling would well benefit from his knowledge. Three thumbs up from Ron

Tim, With the skirts off you'll need to use a sharp knife and insert it between the sherling and the skirt leather and start cutting the thread. Once started a flat knife works well to keep cutting the thread. Keep your knife flat against the leather so that you don't cut into the leather. The sherling will probably fall away if it was glued with rubber cement. Like you mentioned, removing the old thread is the time comsuming part of the job. Sometimes you can remove longer runs of stitching but finding the bobbin thread and pulling it out of the loops created by the needle thread, but, this isn't aways possible, or can be performed quickly. Once the sherling is removed make sure that you mark the location of the 2 or 3 pieces of leather between the skirts and the fleece. You'll have to recement these to the skirts prior to gluing on the new fleece. I pin these pieces in place using blue tacks or small nails to line up the stitching holes prior to and during the drying of the glue. Good luck, Ron

I start at $300 for new fleece, and that includes cleaning and oiling. I adjust up or down from there according to type of rigging and how the skirts are attached. A flank cinche alone starts at $75 and billets are extra (whole item easily $125). The new flatplate would be at least $100 since this item isn't removed normally for new fleece. You did a lot of work, so as mentioned, don't sell your work short. And, also as mentioned, friends get discounts. One last thought, using existing hardware doesn't really save much in cost becaue of the time needed to tear off the old items, and clean them up for reinstallation. Ron

Josh, When I mentioned the nail and string method, I assumed that everyone understood what I meant. Before you start putting any leather on your tree, first mark the centerline of the tree. Set your tree up against a straight level wall (behind your workbench, table against a wall, etc.). with a long side of the bar against the wall and the tree setting flat on the table. Take a tri-square or a leather square and hold it on the wall with the other leg extending onto the cantle and make a mark on the cantle (say at 7 inches). Do the same on the horn. Flip the tree around to the opposite side and make your marks at the same measurement (say 7 inches). Now, determine the midpoint of these marks, and you will have the center of the cantle and the center of the horn. Of course, you should always check your work, and the horn is the easiest by just finding it's center by using a compass. After finding the center of the cantle, tack a nail into the centerline mark, and you can use this mark to determine locating your rigging by using a string looped around the nail and pulling it down to a reference point on your rigging (say the corner of the rigging plate). A good example of how to do this is on Bill Gomer's saddle tapes. This way you can put your work anywhere and still have a reference point on the saddle that doesn't change. Ron