bruce johnson

Well OK, that will be one vote for bars and bar patterns apparently don't matter much. For those still with us, the thread about bars and bottoms is still available for viewpoints and discussion. Bruce Johnson

Rod and Denise. I am very thankful you are here. I am looking forward to your insight into this whole area. It seems like we all can learn to build on whatever we choose to use, but there is just not much good information on how to choose the tree to start with. That was and still is a major concern of mine. Bill Reis asked me several years ago at a show what I would like to see. My first suggestion was to have a discussion group with some saddle tree makers and saddlemakers so we could all get close to being on the same page. Make it easier for us to communicate with each other. Hasn't happened yet, although Pete Gorrell has done some tree fitting classes. I am looking forward to your contributions. As far as I can remember, other than your previous articles in LCSJ, there has really never been much information and discussion coming from a tree maker. I welcome it. Bruce Johnson

Dusty, Thanks for the reply. I guess maybe we are addressing two different topics here. What I am addressing is not the rider picking out a saddle of the rack or just making a blank order with us. We have already established that the rider is a big factor, and many are just not informed what they even need to be buying. I also maintain that it is important not to hurt the horse. I am pretty sure that is something we ARE 100% agreed on across the board. My only intention in this is to approach this from the saddle maker's point. Not a saddle to build for stock, but one for the customer who comes in, and tells me he wants ME to build HIM a saddle. The first thing we need to do is decide on a tree. That is all I am talking about. I am not ignorant that horses change not only from year to year, but month to month with conditioning and feed. I know that a tree can fit several horses of similar size and build. That is not the point either. The question is going to be whose tree do I order, and then what do I tell tree maker X to make. I have built on several makers's trees. Right now I have a Hadlock&Fox, Bowden, some Timberlines, three of the later Hercules, a Superior, and just finished up a Sonny Felkins. Every one of them has little or big differences in the bar patterns and geometry. They just are not all going to fit all horses the same. That is what I am getting at. How do we decide who's patterns will fit the customer's horses? The one who is paying us a premium price to make something that is better on the topside, and I maintain, should be better on the bottom side if need be than off the rack model. His horses may very well fit the "standard" for our chosen tree maker. Great, we are done with that part. As you know, there are really no standards from one tree maker to the next. If they don't fit the chosen standard, and we didn't at least check, we have done him no more of a service than the telephone operator at Smith Brothers or the guy at the feedstore. If we set a standard tree up on their back, and it bridges, it rocks, it stands up, it sits downhill, It has contact only in the center of the front pads on the bottom, it has no room for flare (the back points or front points dig in), that is what I am talking about. Things we can, and to my mind need to do, to ensure as good a fit as we can. I am not talking about making sure every square inch of the bottom bar is in contact. I am talking about making sure that in the least this horse is not getting pinched somewhere just standing. I also want to know that when he does his job, whether it is a 8 second calf roping run, 2-1/2 minutes of cutting, or day-working (shipping, doctoring in the field, or branding), that my saddle tree is not going to be in his way. I think picking the proper tree is going to have to be based on a few things. First is our experience with whose trees have what bar patterns and bottom geometry. The second is to match that up as well as we can to the customer's horse(s). The second is the challenge for me. If it doesn't fit, what measurements do I need to tell my treemaker to make it work? The only thing most off the rack customers have is gullet width on the same shape of bars, I want to go beyond that. Just as an aside, I am not a saddle fitter, I am just a guy who makes some saddles. I have a background in horses and fairly good understanding of their anatomy. I have done several different things and events with my horses, and feel pretty comfortable talkng the events and special needs of my customers and friends. I have no agenda here other than to learn. Bruce Johnson

Ashley, On the one piece rear jockeys, I was referring to Ken Tipton ("Tip's" in Winnemucca, NV). His saddles have them. I see the one piece jockeys occasionally, and am usually impressed when someone can (1) uses an piece of leather that is appropriate for that, and (2) can make them fit right. Unfortunately, I am still a two piece and lacer. When I get to the point of doing a saddle-show saddle, I am going to do the one piece. Bruce Johnson

Spam, Where should I start... 1. My mother and father met while working at the Hormel plant in Austin, MN 2. My beloved Grammy set a blue million flower bulbs in used Spam cans 3. What cans she didn't use for bulbs saw use as storage for bacon grease and drippings used at subsequent cooking, and you have never enjoyed popcorn cooked in grease on the stovetop like hers! 4. Spam cans were used as pencil cups by the phone 5. I have actually toured the Spam Museum 6. My grammy's 90th birthday was held at the George Hormel mansion 7. I don't eat it by choice... Says Bruce Johnson, former meat packing house employee, great grandson, son, and nephew of packing house livestock buyers, grandson and nephew of cattle and hog feeders, brother to a PhD meat scientist, etc.

Dusty, Thanks for the posting. I would like to get a little more specific on just the fitting aspects of some of what you said. I think most of us agree that we don't have the luxury of fitting a specific saddle to a specific horse at a specific point in his life. I think David used the term "microfitting" in another thread. We have to fit the average of what that rider is going to ride mostly. The occasional customer does have the oddball horse that will need the tree that won't work for many others. No different than orthopedic shoes for the specific customer who needs them. There are obviously a lot of variables in fitting saddles to a horse, and , agreeing with you, we are probably dealing with a less informed population of horsepeople than 50 to 80 years ago. Horses are now a leisure hobby, and not a means of business for a lot of folks. We can probably thank the dude ranch era, John Wayne, and horse shows for that. To disagree or at least play the devil's advocate here, I can't quite buy your shoe example at face value. When I buy shoes off the rack, I buy by my size and try them on. I have three pairs of boots I ride in, and they are all three diffferent sizes or widths. No surprise there, since they are made by three different makers, probably on three different lasts. I try them on to test drive them. When Joe Average goes into the tackshop, calls NRS, Valley Vet, Stateline, or whoever they have the choice of gullets and QH or semi QH bars. Usually the person helping them is no more knowledgable of what these mean than the customer is. These saddles may all come with the same bar pattern from the same tree maker. The horse can't say that he needs a little more room in the gullet, and little flatter pad in front, or more/less rocker, let's try on another size or tree maker. Just like shoes, when we buy a backpack we try it on. If it rubs or hits us wrong we can say something, we aren't going to buy that one - no matter how many pockets or flaps it has. Or in the case of a saddle, how cool the tooling or silver is. I agree that conditioning is a part. The unfit horse can't go all day in a saddle that does fit. However I would also say - the most fit horse won't go all day in a saddle that doesn't fit either, without some kind of problem. The first problem is out of our hands, the second is in our lap. This whole fitting and tree selection thing is complex and like I said earlier - full of variables. We won't and probably shouldn't ever reach a consensus that will fit every maker, but the discussion should be helpful. I would encourage you to respond with your fitting thoughts on saddle tree bars, patterns, and spreads, on the topic "saddle tree - bars and bottoms". My hope is that with enough experiences and responses here, we can go through each part of the saddle and fitting it - to at least minimize the variables we as makers can control. Thanks, Bruce Johnson

Romey, I am going to show my knife ignorance here and ask what probably half of the world wants to know. What is a false edge? Whatever it is, the whole dang knife looks great to me. Bruce Johnson

Ashley, Very cool work. Looks like we get at least some of our bucking rolls from the same source. I like your work. Looks like at least on the slickfork with the chocoalte bucking rolls, you did a one piece rear jockey. That so?? Looks very clean, and reminds me of a guy's work I admire. Thanks for posting these pics. Bruce Johnson

Regis, I owned one of the early Boss machines. I used it quite a lot, and it is pretty easy to learn and control. I would buy one again in the same position. However I now have a big stitcher and the 1245 Art mentioned. Between those two I can do everything I could with the Boss more efficiently. If you are using it twice a month and don't have the place to keep a machine and table set up, the Boss would be the machine. If you don't mind long boring repetitive motion stitching, it works. It will sew about anything you can cram under the presser foot. Tippmann will rebuild a used machine for $100 the last I checked, and warrant it like new. You need to oil and maintain a Boss just like any other stitcher. Also as Art said the electronic servo motors take a lot of the learning curve out of the powered machines. On my 1245, I can dial down to one stitch every 2-3 seconds. That is cool. Bruce Johnson

Ashley, I am going to bite, and play the devil's advocate a little here. If someone came into my shop and wanted a saddle to fit one horse, I would do it (although it hasn't happened yet). Reason being - that is what separates us from Stateline, National Roper's Supply, the feedstore, and everyone else. In other words, that is the very definition of "custom". If that horse is pretty far out of the norm, and I was pretty sure that saddle would not fit many others, I would tell them that. But I still feel if they want to ride THAT (emphasis not shouting) horse, there is no reason not to order a tree to fit that horse. No reason to make that horse go in something he is not fitted for, if that is what the owner wants. We do it for the topside of the saddle everytime, why not do it for the horse? Bespoke shoe and boot makers do this fitting as a matter of course, and don't concern themselves with the owner's economics. That said, I realize that many owner's are limited by economics, and may not get every bell and whistle saddle option on an oddball treed saddle. They may feel that they could get $2500 (or whatever your base price is) worth of enjoyment or use out of a plainer saddle that does fit that horse over the remainder of its lifetime. If that is not an economic option, then they really weren't looking for "custom" to begin with. That said, I understand where you are coming from. I too worked for a cutting trainer, and had to make do with a couple saddles. Several similar horses can be closely fit with the same couple of saddles. My current customers are mostly barrel racers, ropers, and cowboys moving up from factory saddles, or else they wore out the old handmade they were the 2nd owner on. Those customers you have to fit the middle ground and hope they can pad up the difference. The economic reality is that some kids have to wear hand-me-down shoes, and some horses wear hand-me-down saddles. The fit may not be perfect, but hopefully the right socks or pad will get it done. Bruce Johnson

I set this topic on it's own because I think it needs to be separated out from any one tree maker's discussion. I think we have enough varying opinions and experiences that we could enter into a discussion of the various parts of the tree and what we do/don't want. I think we could all gain some perspective. I envision breaking the tree down to its components and discussing each one by itself in its own topic to kind of keep this on as even a keel as we can. I would like to start with the bars and their shape and spread, independent of forks (swells) and cantles. I am going to probably ramble some, and ask a lot of rhetorical questions. Obviously David has some ideas that are not in synch with the current standard, and I would encourage him to expound more on exactly where his trees differ and why. Nothing is carved in granite, a lot of what we do is based on tradition, right or wrong. I also would encourage the exchange of how we fit our bars to a horse, how we order the tree (limited to bar pattern and spread to start with) from our current or a different tree maker, and the limitations we see with our trees. How do we fit the general horse our clients will ride, and how far from great fit is no fit? Now my opinion only. I don't think we can lump all current tree makers together. Obviously some make bar patterns and have geometries that are different from others. Price is somewhat of a factor, but not always. Some tree companies are making a hundred or more a day, other guys make one every other day. Who pays more attention - no answer. Just like us, some factories make better saddles than we do, and some of us make better than the factories. I have a tree that has rounded pads on the front that concentrate forces in a small area, but gives the appearance of having "flare" for that desirable shoulder freedom. Obviously a round withered muscular horse will suffer if full doubled in this type tree. I have other trees with fairly flat pads. I see a fair amount of horses that these pads provide good contact. I think David posted that he makes some trees with concave pads. Interesting, although I am curious about the rawhide lifting up and tenting, or are they nailed into this dish. If I am correct, this might be a place for a synthetic coating like epoxy. What about ordering based on handhole width vs. gullet width? If we are using the same tree maker and everything else is constant, does it matter? (again rhetorical) Should we specify both, along with the bar spread at the bottom? What about 2 stirrup grooves vs. one (Arizona bars). Is that back edge of the stirrup leather making a lump right where we have muscle bulge in the stride phase? Does the 1/4" of bar thickness we are saving make it that much stronger? What about the arbitrary narrowing of the cantle gullet to account for twist? Can we make a level seat on a "down-hill" sitting tree? Of course we can, ground seat build ups, probably accounts for a lot of the 3 piece built up ground seats. Is the narrowed channel width necessary for all horses? Which horses need it and which ones don't? Like David I see very few uphill built horses, some of the Arabian/gaited horse crosses are probably as close as it gets. BUT, I see a lot of level or down-hillers. Add a gullet (OK Front width) too wide and we have a downhill saddle and more force toward the front. Tapered insert pads (the 3/4 wedge gel insert pads are pretty popular around here) are kind of a filler. Narrow up the front (or widen the back) and we have the same effect. Bar angles. Some horses are getting flatter withered and wider. How do we determine what ones need the celebrated 93 degree bars the training clinicians are touting? Are they throwing their 93 degree bar Wade on the two year old QH and then the 5 year bucking Morgan or TB in the clinic round pen regardless of what his back says?? Food for thought. What about rock(er)? Is too much better than not enough? How do we measure it to tell a tree maker? How do we know what we should have. Does it depend on the horse and his job? If he slogs along at a walk nose-to-tail down the trail, and the rider sits back all day, we probably want it closer than the barrel racer, California stockhorse, or cutter that flexes and extends and is more fit. Big blow out extended strides and the ultimate flex when stopping hard. Bar flare no doubt enters in here too. How much is enough, without sacrificing normal weight bearing surface? How much flex/extension is there in a normal horse's back anyway?? Bar thickness. How many broken bars do we see that were not either (a) flipped over on or ( scored when cutting stirrup leather slots by the makers who build them that way? I do see some of the monstrously thick calf and steer roping trees that do have some major thickness for a reason. Even though the bottom geometry of these bars may be fine the edges are either stubbed off or rounded over. Personally I think a rounded over bar will dig in less than the stubbed off, if the cinches (front and back) aren't pulled for a rodeo run. Is this the saddle we want to brand calves in all day with a little looser cinch? I see a fair amount of Wades that are wider webbed (for lack of a better term) through the stirrup slot and waist area but pretty thin bars. These are old slogging saddles that have stood the test of time and aren't broken. May be a factor of steady pressure vs. a jerk. Obviously the thinner the bars, the closer we are to the horse, the more we feel, the less we torque on his back side to side, and we are all happier. What about the "close contact" trees with the narrower waists? I have to spread my legs as wide as the horse is. Now that is not rocket science. Does it really matter if the bottom bar edge is 2 inches down my inside thigh or 3"? If that bar edge is tapered and smooth with the horse, I can't tell a difference, but I think that extra 1" of bar width will let me rope something bigger with less chance of damage to my gear or person. This is all based on a tapering seat down the sides too, not the 2 full layers to the bottom bar edge ground seat. Other factors obviously play into how these bars will fit besides type of activity and conformation. David mentioned farriers, dentists, bitting, the rider, where they ride - hills or flat. The owners can control a bunch of saddle fit with the feed program, conditioning program, saddle pads, and just plain how they ride. As makers we influence it with rigging postion and type, getting these riggings on evenly, and making a seat our rider can sit in to be in balance with the horse (and right on the cantle generally ain't it). That is getting to the top of the saddle, and I don't want to go there yet. We have factories and one man shops making trees and saddles. We are competing with saddles sold by unknowing catalog and tackstore employees to mostly unknowing customers (both judging the top of the saddle) to put on an animal that can't talk. If he gets sore, they put another saddle on, it may not fit better but is different enough to rest that sore spot and create another one somewhere else. I would really like to see some data from standardized testing of different trees with real-time pressure cell pads during different activities. I look forward to the day of standards, but don't see that happening in my lifetime, and I am not old. In the meantime, I want to have as much information as I can to do the best job I can. I think it starts with the bottom of the tree. Hope this sparks something Bruce Johnson

Ed, As far as a source of Ballistol, I use it to fill out orders from Weaver. Interesting you mention availability. Yesterday I was hunting up some shot for shot bags, and saw cans of Ballistol in 2 of 3 gun shops. One shop had it for sale and the other it was on the back bench. Might check local gun shops. Just looked at a couple Ballistol websites, amazing stuff. Regarding WD-40. I have had mixed advice. Everything from use it as a regular cleaner and lube to don't let it close to your machines - they will gum up, collect grit, and have bad days regularly. The answer is somewhere in between I would suspect. I clean with Ballistol and lube with a mix of hydraulic jack oil and Prolong oil additive. The hydraulic oil/Prolong was suggested to me by Ferdco several years ago, and My machines have stayed tight. Most all of the oil points on my 2000 are pretty accessible. For the ones behind the inspection plates I use a plastic catheter on my oil bottle to reach more easily and pinpoint. Anything that looks like it moves gets oiled. Bruce Johnson

John, The Osborne button hole or "pippen" punches only come with one sized hole. One has a round hole and the other has a teardrop shape hole. It may not be the same size as the guitar button. Johanna's suggestion of the round punch and cutting the slot may still be necessary. The Osborne button punch holes are just a bit small for some of the things I do that cut on (spur straps). I use a round punch for the hole, and instead of a knife, I punch the slit with a sharpened wood chisel. I bought a cheap set of wood handled wood chisels several years ago, and they are all still going strong. I hit them with a maul against a LDPE cutting board. I sharpened them to a finer taper than they came with, but still left the single bevel. I use the different sizes (widths) to cut inlays too, especially long straight lines. On inside corners they prevent overcutting and bad words. Safer and more repeatable cutting than a knife for me in some places. Bruce Johnson

The only place I have patterns for them is in one of FO Baird's big books, Leather Secrets. Way too big to scan, and probably some sort of copyright issues as well. Does anybody know if the big Baird books are available anywhere but ebay? Lots of info in them, someone should reprint them. Bruce Johnson

Snakehorse, Thanks for posting that link. It is handier for me than thumbing through the back issues of LCSJ to find part of the articles that they had a few years ago, plus the website has some additions. Well worth reading again. Bruce Johnson

Alex, David touched on it a little, but getting the MSDS sheets on all liquid products you use is a good idea. MSDS is an ancronym for material safety and data sheets. It is in a prescribed format for chemical compostion, physical proerties, clean up in case of spill procedures, health risks and first aid, etc. for the product. Every manufacturer (and most distributors have them as well) has to provide these to the user on request. I backed into it second handed several years ago. I am the "safety coordinator" at work and religiously collect MSDS sheets on all liquids we use. Several years ago our safety consultant came in for a walkthrough. I had some dye, Barge, and other chemicals I picked up at a local Tandy during lunch. Didn't want to leave them out in the hot truck all afternoon. Didn't have the requisite MSDS sheets for them and got the ol' hand slap. At that time some of the sheets provided me were about 10th generation photocopies, and barely legible. Thought about this over this past weekend when I came across that file. I am going to update, and many firms now email or have websites set up for MSDS distribution. The MSDS sheets mainly apply to liqds or pastes, solids are for the most part (but not always) exempt. If you have a business license and get an OSHA or even a fire department inspection, they will want to see the MSDS sheets. My FD advised me to try to bring out the MSDS books in case of fire if I can do it safely. Can give them a better idea sometimes of what they are up against. Bruce Johnson

Holly, I try to avoid exact 90 degree corners or points in the design, and will use small radius corners cut with punches. I apply my edge burnishing agent of choice. Then I use a combination of things. A stick with notches cut out, a bone folder, rubrag on the straight sections. dowels to burnish the inside corners, whatever the section calls for. Bruce Johnson

Blake, I have used at least 40 sides of it. My experiences here. I started off using Caldwell-Moser when Siegels were carrying that. A little "softer" temper than Herman Oak. The Hermann Oak I first used had rawhide in 2 of 3 sides. Gave me a poor first impression of HO. When C-M closed, I went to Westan. I liked it too. TLF was selling Westan and HO at the same time too. Tried some Teneria, pale color. TLF talked me into trying some HO - I got 3 good sides - nice temper, clean, and cut easy. Ok, I am now a HO man. The very next 3 sides all had rawhide in the necks - not just a little. Pits in the grain. Siegel just came out with their own about that time. I thought it was as close to the Caldwell-Moser as anything I had cut since they closed. Haven't used anything else since. I tried a TLF side for bags and heavy stuff once - not the color and boardy. I won a drawing for a side of Wickett&Craig. The piece I tooled on was OK, but not what the Siegel's does for me. I thought I was on some other planet using it for a while. Nobody I knew was using it. That's cool - worked for me. Siegels did a little phone survey, and then put out a mailer on it. The testimonials were from guys like Eddie Brooks (one of the guys I look up to for making one that holds together - was shop foreman at Capriola's a long time), Jeff Hanson, and Bill Maupin makes bronc saddles with it. I felt like I was in pretty good company. I have probably gotten two sides that fell off in weight. The sides are all pretty clean. The occasional butcher cut. NO rawhide. It really molds well, much like the C-M. It also tools and stamps well. The HO tends to look a little "flat" when basket stamped sometimes. Siegel's "rounds" up. It takes me 3 sides to make a saddle, always has, so the yield is about what I got with the others. It is very consistant, I have not seen a big change in the last couple years. I will make you a deal - order three sides and if you don't like it, Siegel's will pick it up and cover the return shipping. Instead of having them ship it back to them, have them dropship it to me. If you decide to try the skirting, order a LM shearling from Siegels at the same time. I used to use Lazy M, and really liked it. I took a swatch to Siegels when I visited them last fall. Steve got the LM, and I like it better. In blind tests. it consistantly feels denser in the wool and the leather is heavier. It is a little more to the golden color side, rather than the orange tint of the Lazy M. Bruce Johnson

TwoStep, No right or wrong, some people don't background at all, others really mash down. Here's what I do. I background after beveling and prefer a checkered backgrounder. Something along the lines of the Tandy 104 usually. I also have a set of slightly finer checkered backgrounders. I am not a fan of bargrounders, but some guys run them well. I background when the leather is fairly dry, and sometimes will tool something and thgen background 12-18 hours later. If the leather is still pretty damp and moldable, the backgrounders can spread the backgrounding too much and close up the beveling. You rebevel and lose some of the backgrounding, and you are in a loop. Once the piece is totally dry, then I background dye. Bruce Johnson

As Blake said, welcome to all who are here. Little John, I didn't know you were over here, good to have you. Gary, I must concur with Blake. I shop tree makers every so often. Last year I ordered one of my common trees from 3 makers at the same time - the Superior was not in the top two. Some of the synthetic coatings bear promise, although they are not there yet for my type of customer. My saddles get roped out of a bunch, have horses bang them around, and are abused. The rawhide has a naturally elasticity that will deform and return to shape within limits. Some of the synthetic coatings are stiff and brittle. I have a warranty replacement tree brought to me by a customer. This customer single-steer ropes and had broken 2 of their trees. The warranty tree was triple dipped epoxy. The tree maker proudly told me that these trees will take 5000# of pressure without deforming. I am not sure if that is a good thing or not. It was not shaped well, and the customer opted for another maker's trees. I have had it sitting around and use it to stretch stirrup leathers on. There are some fracture lines in the epoxy where it has been knocked around a little. Whether these would happen in use, I don't know. Other coatings are softer and flexible. Whether they would hold the tree together with the force of something hitting the end of a rope repeatedly or a horse falling with it, I don't know. Blake, regarding our claim for the "Cowboy Capital of the World". We historically get our rains in the winter and spring. Ranching goes back to pre Gold Rush era. Cattle grazed in the valley and foothills in the winter, and then mountain pastures, irrigated clover, or dry feed through the summer. We predominantly fall calve, so the branding and processing is winter and spring. Our rodeos tend to be spring rodeos, and back in the day, were the first of the season. Itinerant rodeo cowboys could day-work on ranches all week, and rodeo on the weekends through the spring and early summer. Many have stayed in this area, and we are now a few generations deep in rodeo history as well. Arenas as well as basketball hoops in the backyards here. I believe we have the only highschool where rodeo is a letter sport, and we usually send a few kids to the National High School finals every year. At one time 28-30 rodeo world championships were credited to Oakdale residents. In my joking with a friend from the other capital, Bandera, we have had The Oakdale Testical Festival for now our 26th year. It is a community calf fry , usually a sell out, and 450 plus attendees this year. When Bandera can match that, we will share the title. Bruce G, send me a private email sometime. I like the Santa Ynez area, and had a really good friend from Lompoc. He rode barebacks at the NFR a few years. Looking forward to some great sharing from this bunch. Bruce Johnson

bcj, The thread from Ferdco (actually it is made by Coats) is bonded and lubed. On a machine there is a lot of friction heat built up on the needle from going through the leather. The heat can be enough to partially melt or at least get the thread "sticky". The thread then sticks to the needle, and doesn't loop underneath, and skips a stitch. The Boss doesn't build up that kind of speed or heat to stick a thread, so that is why they generally aren't used with a lube pot. Some guys run lubepots on their heavy single needle machines, and some don't. I do. I have been told (and read in several catalogs and websites) that the smaller thread in the bobbin will allow the stitch to pull up tighter. Cambell-Randall, Ferdco, Weaver all say that. That said, I have run the same at times, and not seen a noticable difference. Bruce Johnson

Blake, I live in Oakdale, CA. We are known as "The Cowboy Capital of the World". A few other towns claim it, but we have festivals and history to back it up. It is a historically a ranch and rodeo town. On the edge of the Sierra foothills, some mountain packers above us. I build, rebuild, and repair. I do a lot of other leatherwork as well. I am also a student of history, and enjoy collecting old books - cowboy poetry, true 1st person accounts, and vaquero/western history. Bruce Johnson

Ed, I am not a 4 Way user, but have heard the 4Way's are the same. I use just regular Lexol leather conditioner for my thread lube. It is a milky liquid, consistancy of whole milk. As far as thread weights, I think they weigh and charge based on that. I have had spools of varying wieghts (15 to 19 oz) from both Ferdco and Weaver. Weaver sent me one once that was so overfilled that the thread would fall off the spool and tangle under the thread stand. I don't know if anyone figures the tare of the spool or not. Bruce Johnson

Pete, From the measurement you have, you will need to know two more measurements. You will need the length from the hook on the buckle to the heel. This may be up to 4" on a monster trophy buckle with a standard hook, or only 1-1/2 or 2" on a "reverse hook" buckle. This plus the 39" you already have should give you the measured waist size. Then you will need to add the amount he wants the tip of the belt to extend past the fold (overlap). I make most of my belts to the measured waist size and then add the overlap they want. A shorter overlap may be 2", I like 3-1/2" personally. I then punch the holes if they bring me the buckle, or send it unpunched for them to punch to fit. Most of my customers have or have access to a leather punch. When I was wholesaling belts I never punched them, the sellers punched them to fit the buckle. This allowed them to custom fit for the guy who wanted 2" overlap, or the kid who liked 6" with the strap of appropriate length. If they are prepunched and the buyer likes a shorter overlap and has a short buckle, then they have 4 holes past the buckle tip. Looks like they have progressivley gained weight and are in the last hole. Kind of a vanity thing, but many folks don't like to appear that way. Bruce Johnson

K-Man, Your experience at Springfield Leather was deja vu to me. One other suppler to add to the list - Siegel's of California. A few years ago, I had placed a large order (large for me) with Siegels at the end of December for shipment after the first of the year. My wife took an unexpected turn for the worse and died in the meantime. I called Siegels and told them to hold the shipment, since I would not be in the shop for a few weeks. My rep at the time sent one of the nicest floral arrangements we got. I got a sympathy card signed by everyone from Steve Siegel, to the office staff, to order pullers and shippers. The topper was two days later the leather showed up with instructions to pay when I used it up. They are good folks to deal with too. Speedy recovery to you, mi amigo. Bruce Johnson