Water cutter for leather

[ThoughtFission]

Hi,

Has anyone come across a high pressure water cutter that is suitable for leather? The only ones I've seen start around 40k but there would seem to be a lot of advantages to using water vs laser, not least of which would be the fumes the laser creates.

Thanks.

[CastleLeatherWorks]

idk about you but using a razor/utility knife works fine for me. lol

but all joking aside..what application would this be beneficial as i cant think of any myself..

im aware of water jets being used in the metal working industry but why would anyone want to cut leather with one.

if you could please explain.

 

[chuck123wapati]

40 k ? you will pound alot of leather to pay for that.

 

[ThoughtFission]

3 hours ago, CastleLeatherWorks said:

idk about you but using a razor/utility knife works fine for me. lol

but all joking aside..what application would this be beneficial as i cant think of any myself..

im aware of water jets being used in the metal working industry but why would anyone want to cut leather with one.

if you could please explain.

 

The first reason is the fumes that laser cutters produce with leather. None with water. The second reason is it can cut much thicker leather. This is a business for me so producing large numbers of items is important. Hand cutting won't cut it, excuse the pun.

[CastleLeatherWorks]

@ThoughtFission

i think most people use clickers and dies to save time although im not opposed to using automated machinery. how much volume are you trying to get out and also what kind of items are you making?

for some reason the thought of cutting leather on a waterjet seems strange to me. especially for higher end goods.

i dont think most consumers that buy the types of leather goods we make want mass produced items.

maybe im wrong but just because you can use an automated machine technology doesn't mean you should especially in the world of handmade leather goods.

 

[LatigoAmigo]

51 minutes ago, ThoughtFission said:

The first reason is the fumes that laser cutters produce with leather.

You can resolve that issue with a fume extractor. I picked one up about a year ago for about $2k and it has performed flawlessly. 

[chrisash]

We had a quality shoe factory near us that I visited some years ago, and they did multi layer cutting with a clicker press that was fast and efficient, somehow I cannot see many faster options

[ThoughtFission]

2k for an extractor!? I'm just starting out. 2k for the extractor and 5k for the cutter are waaaaaayyy beyond my budget for the time being. I was hoping to find a DIY option that I could build myself. Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate it.

[ThoughtFission]

12 hours ago, chrisash said:

We had a quality shoe factory near us that I visited some years ago, and they did multi layer cutting with a clicker press that was fast and efficient, somehow I cannot see many faster options

The issue there is the cost of the cutter (10 tonnes or above) and the cutting dies. But I have seen some tutorials on how to make your own dies. Makes it difficult to prototype though. Need a new die for each change. Maybe I will give this a second look until I can afford a more elegant solution.

[Bert03241]

I don't see any advantage to water cutting leather. First of its going to make the leather all mushy and then you have to dry it, that takes time.

[Ferg]

You could cut 3 to 4 oz. leather with a small inexpensive diode laser, it would be slow. If you are thinking Chrome Tanned leather forget the laser.

CO2 laser of 40W of power would cut about anything you want to cut in leather. It will stink and it will burn the edges black. Some manipulation of air assist, power, speed of cut,

will lighten the edges somewhat, it will still stink. Think a dead animal being incinerated.

On a budget? Go to Harbor Freight, buy a hydraulic press that has a jack with air assist, either do a little self build or have a friend with a welder provide the surface you need.

There are hundreds of posts regarding buying and modifying these presses on this forum. Slower than a dedicated $5000 dollar clicker. With good dies you can cut a large amount in a 

relatively short time.

I have two lasers, self built hydraulic press, and many knives. Believe me, you don't want to cut leather with a water jet. Laser cutting leather is messy at best.

Ferg

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Ferg

[Frodo]

 I hear led zeppelin in the back ground playing Dazed And Confused

Led Zeppelin - Dazed And Confused (Official Audio) - YouTube

 

 

Large companies use large clicker cutters and do not stack the leather in high bundles, because of quality assurance

If you are an up and coming company then you need to pick 5 or 6 patterns that you do GOOD  and not try to make everything in the world, THAT comes after you are established.  Right now it will be about building a solid clientele list and a good name

Get a large clicker press and fined a company that is willing to grow with you and provide you with dies.  you need to use 1 guy exclusively 

[Matt S]

@ThoughtFission So you're considering spending 40K on a waterjet cutter that /might/ cut leather to an acceptable standard, but not 7K on a laser plus extractor that /will/ cut leather (slowly, with possibly acceptable edges) or under 3K on a clicker press that /will/ cut leather /fast/ with good edges?

Waterjet cutters aren't exactly clean. I've not used one myself but all the videos I've seen of people operating them look very messy. Ever used a pressure washer to clean a patio? Now run it indoors, 8 hours a day. I suppose if you're running a business it's possible to partition your waterjet machine away from the leather storage and machine rooms. You'll also have to contend with the fact that the leather will be soaking wet (and potentially dirty). You'll have to factor in time and cost to dry (and possibly clean) this leather before the next stage.

I noticed that you've been making a lot of posts about saving money or doing things on the cheap. I know well how tempting that is, but in my experience that's the wrong way to setup a business. Cheap tools and machinery are some of the most expensive things you can buy. I'm not advocating to waste money but the frustration, the downtime (lost earning), the inflexibility (lost opportunity, and/or having to buy another tool to do that other job) and the early breakages associated with cheap (low quality and/or inappropriate) tools far exceeds what you initially pay for them in £/€/$.

[Uwe]

I’ve used a water jet to cut leather before. It worked okay, cutting four or so layers at a time sandwiched between foam board, but still was messy. That was when I had access to a water jet at my local maker space.It’s a monstrous machine and a maintenance nightmare. This will never exist in my garage.

If I were to start cutting custom shapes out of leather, I’d invest in a oscillating knife CNC cutting machine. I’ve seen these at trade shows and was utterly impressed. They can be large enough for an entire hide, or much smaller.  They’re definitely easier to maintain and less messy than a water jet. I can see a 2’x4’ version this living in my garage, for around $15K on Alibaba.com

 

 

[billybopp]

46 minutes ago, Uwe said:

I’ve used a water jet to cut leather before. It worked okay, cutting four or so layers at a time sandwiched between foam board, but still was messy. That was when I had access to a water jet at my local maker space.It’s a monstrous machine and a maintenance nightmare. This will never exist in my garage.

If I were to start cutting custom shapes out of leather, I’d invest in a oscillating knife CNC cutting machine. I’ve seen these at trade shows and was utterly impressed. They can be large enough for an entire hide, or much smaller.  They’re definitely easier to maintain and less messy than a water jet. I can see a 2’x4’ version this living in my garage, for around $15K on Alibaba.com

That looks really interesting!   I wonder if the cutting head is something that could be purchased separately and attached to a "regular" CNC?

- Bill

[Uwe]

They actually make combo CNC machines that have both a laser head and a separate oscillating knife head. The knife heads might be available separately, but I’m not sure.

You’ll need a special cutting bed that the knife can cut into, and perhaps a vacuum system to hold the leather down.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Uwe

[sbrownn]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:24 AM, ThoughtFission said:

The issue there is the cost of the cutter (10 tonnes or above) and the cutting dies. But I have seen some tutorials on how to make your own dies. Makes it difficult to prototype though. Need a new die for each change. Maybe I will give this a second look until I can afford a more elegant solution.

I'm not sure why you need a clicker die to prototype.  I use a 3D printer to make 2D patterns for my prototyping and then cut around them with a knife.  I had this idea to 3D print clicker dies that would have a slot in them that you could fit a band knife into.  I did give it a try but the band knife stock I purchased was way too stiff to bend and fit into the slot.  My pattern had too many sharp curves but if you eliminated the sharp curves the process works fine.  My next idea is to use a thinner bandsaw knife blade but I haven't gotten around to experimenting with it yet.   Another idea I had was to just use blades for the straight sections and then cut the curves with a knife. 

[Ferg]

I have a two head CNC router. Large industrial machine weighing 5000 #.

I also have a "Drag Knife" that attaches into the collets of the heads. The knife is actually either a Exacto blade or simply a Utility knife blade.

I can program it with the same G-codes used for CNC, the motors do not turn, you lock the router so it cannot free turn.

Obviously everyone isn't fortunate enough to have a $120,000 CNC to play with since we retired. The drag knife attachment cost about $200.

Uwe, you would love this thing! Lol

Ferg

[billybopp]

5 hours ago, Ferg said:

I have a two head CNC router. Large industrial machine weighing 5000 #.

I also have a "Drag Knife" that attaches into the collets of the heads. The knife is actually either a Exacto blade or simply a Utility knife blade.

I can program it with the same G-codes used for CNC, the motors do not turn, you lock the router so it cannot free turn.

Obviously everyone isn't fortunate enough to have a $120,000 CNC to play with since we retired. The drag knife attachment cost about $200.

Uwe, you would love this thing! Lol

Ferg

There we have it!  Thanks Ferg!  

PS - definitely jealous!

[Uwe]

The company I saw at the trade show a few years ago was actually Zünd, a Swiss company. They make high end cutting systems for the big production companies, unlikely to fit hobby and garage shop budgets.

Here’s one of their machines at work cutting and punching leather:

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Uwe

[ThoughtFission]

On 3/4/2021 at 6:20 PM, Ferg said:

I have a two head CNC router. Large industrial machine weighing 5000 #.

I also have a "Drag Knife" that attaches into the collets of the heads. The knife is actually either a Exacto blade or simply a Utility knife blade.

I can program it with the same G-codes used for CNC, the motors do not turn, you lock the router so it cannot free turn.

Obviously everyone isn't fortunate enough to have a $120,000 CNC to play with since we retired. The drag knife attachment cost about $200.

Uwe, you would love this thing! Lol

Ferg

Wow, sounds amazing, I think I would give up leather crafting and just play with the CNC all day

[ThoughtFission]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:36 PM, Uwe said:

I’ve used a water jet to cut leather before. It worked okay, cutting four or so layers at a time sandwiched between foam board, but still was messy. That was when I had access to a water jet at my local maker space.It’s a monstrous machine and a maintenance nightmare. This will never exist in my garage.

If I were to start cutting custom shapes out of leather, I’d invest in a oscillating knife CNC cutting machine. I’ve seen these at trade shows and was utterly impressed. They can be large enough for an entire hide, or much smaller.  They’re definitely easier to maintain and less messy than a water jet. I can see a 2’x4’ version this living in my garage, for around $15K on Alibaba.com

 

 

I've seen these things in action. I live in France near the Hermes facilities so at least once a year there are big trade shows here. As you say, not suitable for a little guy like me but very impressive to see in action!

On 3/4/2021 at 6:20 PM, Ferg said:

I have a two head CNC router. Large industrial machine weighing 5000 #.

I also have a "Drag Knife" that attaches into the collets of the heads. The knife is actually either a Exacto blade or simply a Utility knife blade.

I can program it with the same G-codes used for CNC, the motors do not turn, you lock the router so it cannot free turn.

Obviously everyone isn't fortunate enough to have a $120,000 CNC to play with since we retired. The drag knife attachment cost about $200.

Uwe, you would love this thing! Lol

Ferg

One other question, can you share the name/brand of the head? I wouldn't mind having a go at building my own cnc on a much smaller scale. Thanks

[ThoughtFission]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:14 PM, Matt S said:

@ThoughtFission So you're considering spending 40K on a waterjet cutter that /might/ cut leather to an acceptable standard, but not 7K on a laser plus extractor that /will/ cut leather (slowly, with possibly acceptable edges) or under 3K on a clicker press that /will/ cut leather /fast/ with good edges?

Waterjet cutters aren't exactly clean. I've not used one myself but all the videos I've seen of people operating them look very messy. Ever used a pressure washer to clean a patio? Now run it indoors, 8 hours a day. I suppose if you're running a business it's possible to partition your waterjet machine away from the leather storage and machine rooms. You'll also have to contend with the fact that the leather will be soaking wet (and potentially dirty). You'll have to factor in time and cost to dry (and possibly clean) this leather before the next stage.

I noticed that you've been making a lot of posts about saving money or doing things on the cheap. I know well how tempting that is, but in my experience that's the wrong way to setup a business. Cheap tools and machinery are some of the most expensive things you can buy. I'm not advocating to waste money but the frustration, the downtime (lost earning), the inflexibility (lost opportunity, and/or having to buy another tool to do that other job) and the early breakages associated with cheap (low quality and/or inappropriate) tools far exceeds what you initially pay for them in £/€/$.

Completely agree on the last point re buying quality. But sometimes reality dictates budget as is the case with me. Lost my job a few years ago after my company transfered me to France. So I'm stuck here with no employment options because of my inability to speak French fluently. I am doing this out of necessity, not for fun. If I had the money then I would buy the best tools possible. I don't. So I'm just looking to find the best options possible. My intent was never to buy/build a 40k machine, or a 7k machine for that matter. I'm just pretty good at building things ( I repurpose antique radios into internet/bluetooth systems with new electronics and speakers, for example). I thought maybe I could fashion something to speed up the production process and maybe help other people in the process with a new, out of the box, solution. So yes, many of my posts are about saving money. That's my reality for now.

[billybopp]

20 hours ago, ThoughtFission said:

Completely agree on the last point re buying quality. But sometimes reality dictates budget as is the case with me. Lost my job a few years ago after my company transfered me to France. So I'm stuck here with no employment options because of my inability to speak French fluently. I am doing this out of necessity, not for fun. If I had the money then I would buy the best tools possible. I don't. So I'm just looking to find the best options possible. My intent was never to buy/build a 40k machine, or a 7k machine for that matter. I'm just pretty good at building things ( I repurpose antique radios into internet/bluetooth systems with new electronics and speakers, for example). I thought maybe I could fashion something to speed up the production process and maybe help other people in the process with a new, out of the box, solution. So yes, many of my posts are about saving money. That's my reality for now.

If you are handy, and have the space and resources you may want to check out this YouTube video series on building a laser cutter.  As mentioned above, take away the laser and mirrors and replace with a drag knife, and a little improvisation you have pretty much what you are looking for.  If you add a Z access and a cutter head you have a CNC machine.  If you replace the cutter head with an extruder, you have a 3D printer.   There is at least one manufacturer out there that makes a machine with interchangeable heads to do these things, but I can't remember the name!  They were pretty pricey though.

This YouTube might also be helpful https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4njCTv7IRbwDZ-iLPD2GSWrX_a8KFtU4

 

- Bill

Edited March 20, 2021 by billybopp
added resource

[ThoughtFission]

7 hours ago, billybopp said:

If you are handy, and have the space and resources you may want to check out this YouTube video series on building a laser cutter.  As mentioned above, take away the laser and mirrors and replace with a drag knife, and a little improvisation you have pretty much what you are looking for.  If you add a Z access and a cutter head you have a CNC machine.  If you replace the cutter head with an extruder, you have a 3D printer.   There is at least one manufacturer out there that makes a machine with interchangeable heads to do these things, but I can't remember the name!  They were pretty pricey though.

This YouTube might also be helpful https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4njCTv7IRbwDZ-iLPD2GSWrX_a8KFtU4

 

- Bill

Excellent, thank you :)