Is it always this difficult?

[JLSleather]

34 minutes ago, JayEhl said:

I can only imagine much trouble I would be if I didn't answer an email in almost a week

Yup, indeed.  OR send the wrong product. or the right product but substandard.  or missing parts.  

Folks around here actually ENCOURAGE this type of behavior, I think.   I once posted here about a company (advertises here) I wasn't happy with at all, and I asked why so many seem to like the place.  A SWARM of people who know little about leather and even less about business flooded on to tell me how happy they were with that place .. .so I ASKED what it was that caused them to think that.  One poor guy said he was pretty new, and had only ordered there 4 times... one they sent partial order, one they sent the wrong items, one had some things backordered... etc...  SO THEN I said.. wait.. you ordered FOUR times, they messed up EVERY order, and because they "made it right" he would continue to shop there.  Which doesn't matter to me - not up to me where OTHERS shop.  I just don't "get" why people would order something, get the WRONG thing (or a cheap IMITATION of the right thing), or get it LATE, and continue to shop there.  

A flat tire could happen to anybody.  You could be late for work, even though that's not your style.  When it happens consistently, I'd be letting you go and hiring somebody who will do what I'm paying for.

[TomE]

I’ve been pleased with SLC customer service, in store and for online orders. They just missed on checking my machine. Learning how to maintain tools is a fulfilling part of the craft for me. The sewing machine expertise and generosity found on this forum is a treasure. 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Rubicon04 said:

This isnt a comforting thread to read knowing that I'll be ordering a machine in the next month but was unsure from where. And it seems everyone on my list to look at is mentioned in this thread. 

lol I don't have a machine for leather, but have others and have read through the thread, i would love to get one someday so gathering all the info i can. Seems a leather sewing machine is just like any sewing machine, from what i have read, can use a number of threads, needles feet and any number of add ons that will do whatever one needs.

 I guess my question to all the folks on here knocking the sellers is how in the heck can they send you a machine tuned and ready for every single thread needle combo and gadget that you can think of? How do they know what you are sewing? what you may sew in the future and or what thread, needle and gadget combo you may dream up during your morning shower?

Sewing machines are amazing machines and at one time almost in every house, with a company or more selling and repairing in every town, not now they are dinosaurs living on borrowed time now and finding someone that even sews let alone can work on one is rare.

I had the great fortune in my working career to buy equipment for a number of trades including textiles it was always in our purchasing contracts to provide initial setup and training but on our part we had to know what we were going to be making start to finish, we had few problems but most all the machines no matter the trade had to be setup or fine tuned for what we wanted. I don't see how any company could provide this service to the private citizen without it costing a lot of money that the private citizen or the industry simply doesn't have.

Every person who has ever tried to machine sew anything will tell you that you have to know how to maintain them and tune them.

With that said if you cant get reliable training and service and have to be self taught buying a brand new machine isn't cost effective imo. 

[Daffy]

Wow... 

Couple years ago or there about I bought my class 4 from the leather machine Company. one issue that was resolved here regarding an adjustment.  otherwise it has worked flawlessly once adjusted to my needs at the time.

I don't buy a car with the expectation that a mechanic sits on standby for me waiting to work on it or offer free advice on how to fix it.

[JayEhl]

4 minutes ago, Daffy said:

I don't buy a car with the expectation that a mechanic sits on standby for me waiting to work on it or offer free advice on how to fix it.

Maybe it's just me, but I do have an expectation that when I buy ANYTHING new it should work out of the box.  Sure, a little adjustment here or there for reasons of customization (which is alot of the side conversations here are about) and also when I call the vendor after buying something new I would also expect someone to pick up  with hopefully a smiling face/voice.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by JayEhl
grammar

[JLSleather]

10 minutes ago, JayEhl said:

but I do have an expectation that when I buy ANYTHING new it should work out of the box.

THANK YOU -- finally SOME sanity in a pool of crazy.

If you're  buying something USED, you might legitimately expect an issue (or even multiple issues).  NEW means it DOES WHAT ITS SUPPOSED TO.

I'm always confused (but NOT impressed) by people's willingness to pay NEW / RETAIL / FULL price for goods that need to be worked on BEFORE you use them.  Now, there ARE legit considerations  ...

I helped a gal other day assemble some cheap furniture you get on Amazon and assemble yourself (or get the bald guy up the road to do it).  It comes with a PRICE TAG that ALLOWS you to assemble yourself, and the FREELY OFFERED STATED POSITION that you WILL have to assemble it. 

But I will not pay retail for stuff that i have to FIX or REWORK before I use it.  I have bought a HANDFULL of sewing awls (not to mention other blades) that arrive DULL.  which ended up RETURNED because they wouldn't cut.  OH WAYTY .. I get to tell that old story AGAIN!~....

Went to local Tandy, St. Paul MN.  Asked about their 9/10 oz double shoulder tooling cow and a sewing awl THAT WORKS.  Found a nice looking, firm belt hide in that stack, good size for belts.  Gal brought me the "premium" awl (or some such adjective, maybe "top shelf").  So I said I've bought too many that DONT cut, so how bout I TRY this one.  Went to poke it thru the leather (an awl worth owning should easily pierce 9/10 veg tanned leather).  Manager came ALMOST AT A RUN, wants to know what's going on.  I said
ILL TAKE THE LEATHER, and IF this awl cuts like it should, I'll take that too. 
If it doesn't work, I'll take the leather and  you can KEEP the piece of metal you're calling an "awl". 

Wouldnt cut, and I mean I LEANED on it a bit and still wouldn't pierce. Left the awl there.  Yeah, I COULD HAVE got out a stone and some oil and FIXED it, but WHY SHOULD I?  

Same thing with oblong punches (think holster slots) from Weaver, which were JUNK.  I GAVE THEM AWAY (BTW, the so-called Hermann Oak tooling leather I got from Weaver was also pathetic - I sold it at about 40¢ on the dollar to a guy making knife sheaths, who was able to cut smaller bits between the MANY imperfections, and marked it in my mind as a lesson learned - never been  back there).

Rings Mfg (blue guns) has sent me quite a few very acceptable holster molds (dummy guns).  The ones that weren't got returned.  Yes, I could "rework", but I'm NOT in that line of work, nor should I need to since YOU CLAIMED it was an accurate representation of the "real" gun.  

SLC advertised genuine python 39"x8".  Price wasn't SO bad for python, and it seemed a good call to buy by the meter since I generally dont' like snake but had agreed to use it for a special request.  I got a piece that was 17"x5-6", which for the math-challenged is NOT 39"x8".  It's a belt, so I don't NEED it to be 8", but that IS what I paid for.  Now, I "COULD" have cut in lengthwise and used 2 PIECES to inlay that belt.  But WHY would I do that?  How about just send me what I ordered and paid for?
I complained, and they DID replace it with a piece which CERTAINLY WAS acceptable.  But that wasted DAYS on a project that HAD TO BE delivered on time (anniversary presents lose some of the punch when they're LATE).  Had to push back some OTHER work to get that out on time.  For those who don't follow stories well, I MEAN SENDING ME THE REPLACEMENT DOES NOT "MAKE IT RIGHT"... and does not FIX the situation.
Now, everybody I talked to and "rescheduled" was okay with it, so not earth-shattering destruction here.  But I paid FULL / RETAIL price, allowed time in the schedule to get everything needed and time the work, fit in my work flow, and organize it all.  Then - due to this simple FAILURE TO CONFIRM WHAT THEY SHIP OUT - I ended up killing the time on the phone and emails with customers who WERENT GOING TO get their projects quite when I had said.  I'm okay with apologizing when I'm wrong, but I admit that I SUCK AT sucking up when I DIDNT CAUSE IT.

Phew .....

[JLSleather]

51 minutes ago, Daffy said:

I don't buy a car with the expectation that a mechanic sits on standby for me waiting to work on it or offer free advice on how to fix it.

Uh... WHY would you need a mechanic for a NEW vehicle? 

If a NEW vehicle is not running right,  I wouldn't buy it. 

If it's a USED vehicle, I would consider the possibility would have an issue or two, and I would EXPECT the price tag to reflect that.

If IT WAS ME that caused it to not run right, that would be different and that would be ON ME.

[kgg]

2 hours ago, JayEhl said:

Maybe it's just me, but I do have an expectation that when I buy ANYTHING new it should work out of the box. 

I agree.

My expectation of a new anything particularly a sewing machine is that it works out of the box except for minor adjustments, thread tension type stuff. Unless it is a Chinese Patcher which is a "tinkers delight" or a used machine I expect it to sew properly in forward and reverse for the needles sizes and thread sizes it is rated for. Yes, I can do some of my own repairs but not everyone wants or should be a sewing machine mechanic. If a machine requires 4 or 5 hours of adjustments before it sews properly what does that say about the initial quality control at the manufacturing level. Like the old saying "you get what you pay for" the difference that separates dealers is the level of service they can provide.

I do like brand name equipment and Juki has never disappointed me, yes they are more expensive but the quality difference can be great and noticeable. I have test rode a few clones and I do admit some were good while others I would put them in the "sounded like a bucket of bolts banging around" category.  

kgg

 

[Gregamee]

I have an Artisan Toro 4000R. I bought it new some 6+ years ago and its been sitting for approx 5. I moved and my skills have gone from mediocre to crap.To top it off my machine is hanging up in the bobbin something cronic. Sewing doesnt look bad on top but underneath it's a mess. I need some type of troubleshooting assistance badly. Can anyone give me some kind of direction?

 

[DrmCa]

Not trying to be a devil's advocate, but everything is painfully slow these days. Many businesses are chronically out of stock. Time to ship is slow. Shipping time is ludicrous. People are frustrated bordering on angry.

[Spyros]

I think every sewing machine comes threaded, and with a piece of stitched leather still hanging from the needle, specifically to prove that it works when it was delivered.  

But I don't think this is what this thread is about, it is about lack of responsiveness when people tried to contact some dealers.

[TheDavidLeathermanShow]

Hello my fellow craftsman,

I understand a lot of your frustrations with quality service, I own and operate a construction company in ohio. It seems the days of quality customer service as well as some product manufacturers have jumped on the it’s “due to COVID” excuse wagon. I have a lot of suppliers that instead of doing their job and looking for something that’s available immediately jump to the 10-12 week or if at all excuse. I was told this morning 18-20 weeks on a certain product that was ordered 6 weeks ago (that was supposed to arrive yesterday) was due to COVID! I called the owner of the supply company that I’ve met before to discuss the issues at hand. Low and behold my order was in fact there , the employee was just too darn lazy to look it up on his computer. With all the being said there is a glimmer of light, and the whole point of my post is that if you look hard enough there is always a diamond in the rough. And that diamond being Ryan Neel owner of Neels Saddlery. His office is over an hour from where I live, he is located in North Lima, Ohio. The man is a genius when it comes to sewing machines. So to the original poster , give Ryan a call!!!!

He deals in cowboy machines and I was just at his shop last week he has a boat load of machines in stock. He will for sure return your call, I haven’t even bought one of his machines, but I will say without a doubt he has treated me with the utmost quality and respect. Has worked on my machine like he was the one that sold it to me, provided me with accessories and parts that will work for my machine as well as suppliers that stock parts that he doesn’t. I’ve called for advice numerous times and he has always called me back within the hour. Has always pointed me in the correct direction with all my sewing and leather working needs. And the man is a human dictionary of knowledge when it comes to sewing machines. He can tell you in depth about all the machines on the market new and old, what machines parts are compatible with other machines. Again I have picked his brain about anything sewing related on numerous occasions and he has always answered my questions and then some, he has NEVER and I mean NEVER made me feel like I was wasting his time or that my needs weren’t important to him. Has always given his utmost full attention when speaking with him.

I bought my machine used off Craigslist, it was out of time and the bobbin case was wrecked, numerous screws were lose as if someone disassembled it and then poorly reassembled it. I sat it his work area while he fixed and tuned my machine and went thru it top to bottom for about 4 hrs all the while I asked questions and he gave answers. Offering  me a cold soda , set me up with needles, thread, oil, and an extra bobbin case he had laying around. He even gave me a lesson on using the machine for about an hour. He gave me a bill that I will certainly say was very cheap for what he had performed. He called me the next day to make sure the machine was performing well. Gave him a call a month later for some pointers and advice and he remembered who I was as well as my machine. This guy knows what quality customer service is to the letter and he has made a customer for life! Seriously cannot recommend this fella enough! So again to the original poster give Ryan a call you will be extremely happy you did! Ryan Neel if you are on this forum I cannot thank you enough!

Best regards,

Dave

[Spyros]

3 hours ago, TheDavidLeathermanShow said:

Hello my fellow craftsman,

I understand a lot of your frustrations with quality service, I own and operate a construction company in ohio. It seems the days of quality customer service as well as some product manufacturers have jumped on the it’s “due to COVID” excuse wagon. I have a lot of suppliers that instead of doing their job and looking for something that’s available immediately jump to the 10-12 week or if at all excuse. I was told this morning 18-20 weeks on a certain product that was ordered 6 weeks ago (that was supposed to arrive yesterday) was due to COVID! I called the owner of the supply company that I’ve met before to discuss the issues at hand. Low and behold my order was in fact there , the employee was just too darn lazy to look it up on his computer. With all the being said there is a glimmer of light, and the whole point of my post is that if you look hard enough there is always a diamond in the rough. And that diamond being Ryan Neel owner of Neels Saddlery. His office is over an hour from where I live, he is located in North Lima, Ohio. The man is a genius when it comes to sewing machines. So to the original poster , give Ryan a call!!!!

He deals in cowboy machines and I was just at his shop last week he has a boat load of machines in stock. He will for sure return your call, I haven’t even bought one of his machines, but I will say without a doubt he has treated me with the utmost quality and respect. Has worked on my machine like he was the one that sold it to me, provided me with accessories and parts that will work for my machine as well as suppliers that stock parts that he doesn’t. I’ve called for advice numerous times and he has always called me back within the hour. Has always pointed me in the correct direction with all my sewing and leather working needs. And the man is a human dictionary of knowledge when it comes to sewing machines. He can tell you in depth about all the machines on the market new and old, what machines parts are compatible with other machines. Again I have picked his brain about anything sewing related on numerous occasions and he has always answered my questions and then some, he has NEVER and I mean NEVER made me feel like I was wasting his time or that my needs weren’t important to him. Has always given his utmost full attention when speaking with him.

I bought my machine used off Craigslist, it was out of time and the bobbin case was wrecked, numerous screws were lose as if someone disassembled it and then poorly reassembled it. I sat it his work area while he fixed and tuned my machine and went thru it top to bottom for about 4 hrs all the while I asked questions and he gave answers. Offering  me a cold soda , set me up with needles, thread, oil, and an extra bobbin case he had laying around. He even gave me a lesson on using the machine for about an hour. He gave me a bill that I will certainly say was very cheap for what he had performed. He called me the next day to make sure the machine was performing well. Gave him a call a month later for some pointers and advice and he remembered who I was as well as my machine. This guy knows what quality customer service is to the letter and he has made a customer for life! Seriously cannot recommend this fella enough! So again to the original poster give Ryan a call you will be extremely happy you did! Ryan Neel if you are on this forum I cannot thank you enough!

Best regards,

Dave

That sounds great, and good for you to pass the message along

I *suspect* that many, if not all of the guys mentioned here start out something like that, and want to stay like that, but at some point work catches up to them and they just don't have the time to offer that kind of quality service or even answer the phone sometimes.   And everybody knows how difficult and risky it is to find and hire good help.

But like I said, I don't actually know the specific circumstances of each dealer, just speculating. 

[RockyAussie]

11 hours ago, Gregamee said:

I have an Artisan Toro 4000R. I bought it new some 6+ years ago and its been sitting for approx 5. I moved and my skills have gone from mediocre to crap.To top it off my machine is hanging up in the bobbin something cronic. Sewing doesnt look bad on top but underneath it's a mess. I need some type of troubleshooting assistance badly. Can anyone give me some kind of direction?

 

I and I am sure a few others here may be able to help but ....so as to not highjack this thread it would be worth starting a new thread of its own. Please post some pictures showing what you are calling a mess top and bottom as that will help to narrow down the problem. There are many different reasons that can cause a mess underneath like wrong needle wrong thread combination to start with. Remember that pictures need to be reduced in size before posting to a maximum of 1.4mb in total.

[jrdunn]

4 hours ago, Spyros said:

That sounds great, and good for you to pass the message along

I *suspect* that many, if not all of the guys mentioned here start out something like that, and want to stay like that, but at some point work catches up to them and they just don't have the time to offer that kind of quality service or even answer the phone sometimes.   And everybody knows how difficult and risky it is to find and hire good help.

But like I said, I don't actually know the specific circumstances of each dealer, just speculating.

I was kind of wondering the same thing when I read David's post.  I just ordered a machine, so I kinda wished I had known this before.  Then, I thought "Assume there are 10 people on the forum right now wanting to order a machine.  We all call him this morning.  He is "busier than a one armed paper hanger in a windstorm", his machines are out of stock and can't remember where he put his coffee, much less what my name is."  I'm not making excuses!  I want my machine to work out of the box.  I have no doubt that Neel is indeed a great guy and wish I had heard about him sooner.  Now, I'll stick with the bronc I saddled(dealer I ordered from), hope for the best and work through the rest.

JM2C,

Jim

[Handstitched]

18 hours ago, JayEhl said:

but I do have an expectation that when I buy ANYTHING new it should work out of the box.

I second .... triple that   

Thats what happened with me, luckily . It sewed exactly as I expected, and as advertised in the  horsey magazine .  

I can see this thread continuing  for a little while yet . 

HS

[Doc Reaper]

Dude, go check the mail you have on here, it will help you - I promise 

[Doc Reaper]

This thread is confusing and intimidating to a new buyer, look at a the input, JLSleather call me at 980-621-5851. I have purchased from a couple of ya, but damn, I had to read through Britannica just to get to here, and it’s less than 24 hours old

[JLSleather]

2 hours ago, jrdunn said:

I want my machine to work out of the box. 

And you SHOULD EXPECT that.

SERIOUSLY folks, if you don't already know how, then LEARN to distinguish between what you HEARD and what you KNOW to be true.  What you heard / read MIGHT be true, but just BECAUSE you heard it doesn't make it true. Like ...

Q:  If you're wanting to lose a few pounds, which is better - low carb or low fat?

A:  Depends on who is paying for the ad.

 

Seriously, I've 'shopped' with Bob at Toledo for a good while.  I'm gonna say he's been more than patient, since he always gets down to what I need and sometimes has suggestions on what a guy might do or not do.  He might get busy, depending on orders 'n' such - I'm not his ONLY shopper.  But leave a message and he's ALWAYS called me back same day - usually within an hour.  NOW- I'm telling you this is TRUE, but YOU should have it in your mind that its SOMETHING YOU HEARD, and continue to gather information until you're comfortable making YOUR OWN DECISION.  That's a pretty good reference for Ryan Neel just back a bit here, but again - that's SOMETHING YOU HEARD (and MAY be true in SOME cases, or ALL cases, or maybe JUST THAT ONE TIME).  Contact the guy and ask some questions.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by JLSleather

[TheDavidLeathermanShow]

if my memory serves me correctly, Ryan Neel has been in the business of distributing machines since 2003. And before that was in the business of making saddles and tack since he was in his teen years. He holds the patent for the invention of the hand operated cowboy outlaw. So I must say he’s anything but new to business and customer service. I think what sets him apart and gives him the ability to shine is the fact that his business is family operated. When I’ve made the drive over to his shop, I’ve met in person a few of his workers/family members and they are all equally talented and helpful as Ryan himself.

Also I must say, I’ve walked thru the shipment room of his shop. The amount of packages that are waiting to be picked up by UPS/FEDEX postal carriers is absolutely amazing! I say amazing because that to me proves how busy he is, but yet still able to provide great customer service as if I was his only customer! Truly amazing!

and to my fellow forum craftsman I in no way shape or form have any benefit by promoting Ryan’s business. Just an extremely satisfied customer that wanted to share my numerous interactions with the rest of you!

 

[Tequila]

@Rubicon04  I was going through a lot of what you talked about, my final decision was to buy from Leather Machine Co.  I spoke to David, actually spoke to him a few times, I found him to be helpful and I liked the warranty they have.  He also told me there would be a shipping delay and explained why, I hate to wait but understood what the hold up was.

 @chuck123wapati  I wish there was a like button for your post.  

I too expect something to work when I buy it, and like many others I’ve been disappointed on occasion, most recently on a round knife, but I’m realistic on my expectations.  I do expect my new sewing machine to work when I get it, it will have a sample of it’s sewing still in the machine.  Now if I change the thread/needle/leather thickness I anticipate that I may have to make some minor adjustment.  Here’s an analogy that I thought of:  I regularly shoot a model 1873 rifle and it’s accurate at the distance I shoot.  If I want to shoot it at a greater distance well then I’m going to have to change the sight’s height, adjust the powder charge and change the bullet weight.  Will it work?  Sure, but I have to be realistic in my expectations, it will never be accurate out to a mile, it’s just beyond the guns ability.  Can I sew a one inch piece of leather on the machine I bought?  No, it’s beyond the machine’s capability.   Have a sewing machine work out of the box?  Yes, but some minor adjustments may be needed and what’s important to me is to be able to make a phone call and get guidance when I don’t know how to make that adjustment.    

[JLSleather]

22 minutes ago, Tequila said:

If I want to shoot it at a greater distance well then I’m going to have to change the sight’s height, adjust the powder charge and change the bullet weight.

Yup. And somebody in TX buys the SAME new car model as I do in IA is going to set the heater differently than I do.  This is not the same as saying it goes in reverse and drives back in teh same tracks, as long as you don't turn it, only to find that IT DOES NOT do that.  I don't mind adjusting the heater and moving the mirrors - but I shouldn't have to hook up the exhaust before i can drive it.

Now, imagine that you bought a machine BECAUSE THEY CLAIMED that it sews back in the same holes, and that the machine has been tested and tried at the 'shop', all ready to go - in fact, there's a bit of leather still attached to it to "prove" that the machine is ready to go.

And suppose you went to get familiar with the machine and found it DOESNT sew back in the SAME HOLES, but rather wants to pierce the thread previously put there in "forward".

And maybe you call to ask if it's the machine, or if you're simply not doing something correctly.

• And you get a salesman asking you if the machine is plugged in. 
• Yup.
• And is the needle in there ALL THE WAY UP in the needle bar? 
• Uh, yeah, but what has that got to do with it?
• Is the needle 'scarf' to the right? 
• Look, you gonna answer my question or not?!

Now suppose you called some other people who have that same machine.  And they TEST what you're talking about, and find that THEIRS DOESNT DO IT either.  And you call the 'dealer' and tell them that, at which time they STOP TAKING YOUR CALLS 

I posted this on THIS site, and that conversation DISAPPEARED within minutes.  Just DELETED (or maybe just 'hidden').  Now, WHY would that happen?  I'm not making any accusations, since I'm quite good at distinguishing between what I KNOW and what I think MIGHT be the case (a skill that seems almost nonexistent these days).

[Rubicon04]

I reached out this morning via email to Neel thanks to @TheDavidLeathermanShow post. See what type of response I receive from him. 

[Northmount]

On 2/21/2022 at 6:55 AM, JayEhl said:

I'm still waiting from a response from Techsew customer service that I sent on the 16th.  It's just for a part and I guess it doesn't rank as importance as would a new machine inquiry but boy I can only imagine much trouble I would be if I didn't answer an email in almost a week.  I am going to give it a few more days before I send a reminder but gosh, I didn't think I had to.

 

@Techsew Ron  Your attention is required.

[TheDavidLeathermanShow]

@Rubicon04 you won’t be disappointed!

I have never sent an email, but his phone number is 1-330-692-1418 

Time and time again I have called and left a voicemail he has called me back within about an hour or less. If memory serves me correctly his business hours are 8am-6pm but I was just there last week to buy a new servo motor and he met me after hours to help me out like a true gentleman. If you don’t get a prompt response to your email, pick up the phone and give him a shout. I guarantee his response will be in a timely manner.