When can you call yourself a craftsman?

[YinTx]

1 hour ago, Handstitched said:

But these days,  seems like I have to up the ante here . This thought went through my mind these past few days . I thought about putting a lot more of my ' fancier stuff'  on display at my stall  for people to see and make more ' fancy stuff '  than I normally would .  I've already started that. I shouldn't have to  and I have never done so in the past....but....times have changed .  We'll see how long  this " sub par" individual will last.   All this will inspire me to do my best work yet and make stuff I have never made before , like  ' fredk '  said " Work to get rid of that threat" . 

Last show I went to I was told by other vendors (many, actually) that my stuff was too nice, and too expensive ($50 for a Sedgwick's Modern Bridle Leather belt!?!?!) and would never sell.  And that I had to make lower quality lower priced goods and they would jump off the table.  I believe they may be on to something.  When people go by my table, it's like they are afraid to touch a $100 wallet or a nice belt!

YinTx

 

Too nice to touch?

[Silverd]

I'm dully impressed with the finish you have obtained and would encourage you to continue as well as exploring other venues that expose your work to more appreciative customers who are looking for and willing to pay for top quality products. 

 

Silverd

[bikermutt07]

3 hours ago, YinTx said:

Last show I went to I was told by other vendors (many, actually) that my stuff was too nice, and too expensive ($50 for a Sedgwick's Modern Bridle Leather belt!?!?!) and would never sell.  And that I had to make lower quality lower priced goods and they would jump off the table.  I believe they may be on to something.  When people go by my table, it's like they are afraid to touch a $100 wallet or a nice belt!

YinTx

 

Too nice to touch?

I certainly wouldn't back off, if I were you. Just add some more affordable items to your lineup. Keep those pricey ones handy though. 

Heck, slap a sold sticker on or two items. That will generate some interest.

[Handstitched]

@fredk thank you for your advice, that does make good sense. I don't have a web site, but I do have photo page on Yahoo ( that I need to update) . I also have flyers, business cards and flyers for the horse rug repair side of things. I have a photo album of my work on the table for people to browse through .  But I can safely brag that I  also have  lot of goodwill and repeat customers both at markets , fairs etc. as well as locally in my town, so I must be doing something right eh ? That  goodwill doesn't come over night, thats taken me years . But I have found that ' word-of-mouth'  has worked the best for me . 

I also have about ten years worth of ' first & second'   prize certificates that I've got from my local  country show. I'm thinking of putting them in  protective sleeves and putting them on display . 

21 hours ago, chrisash said:

Educate your potential customers to quality and what to look for

I agree . I often hear from so many customers that " I bought a cheap belt from a dept store only for it to fall apart....etc etc. " I wish I had a dollar every time I heard that. 

@YinTx Don't ever change . You do quality work and it shows   . I have  quite a variety of items that even kids can afford with their pocket money,  like bookmarks ,  key rings, small coin / change purses , barrettes  etc. Good way to use up odd scraps etc.  You may already do that, but just a thought. 

HS  

[Tugadude]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:41 AM, Handstitched said:

Okay, this is the reason I posed this question . 

At a regular market I’ve attended for 13 years,where I’ve been the only leather worker all that time,  I spotted someone making   ' hand made belts'  ,assembling belts on the spot,    but he is quoted as a ' highly skilled craftsman'   &  ' craftsman' .

At first I felt a little threatened, and a bit peeved as business is hard enough as it is, but more  insulted than anything else  . I don’t even call myself a ‘ craftsman ‘, I personally don't feel I  have earned that title . I call myself a 'leather worker', but not a craftsman .  What people call me is their choice, mostly ' the leather man' . ( however,  I' m happy to accept 'over weight'  or ' short & fat '     )   

 I felt  much better that evening when my gut instinct kicked in and  I took the time to check what he was making on his web page, (and some support from my good ol' Mum )  .  Sure, he was making some ‘nice belts’ with nice buckles etc. , but when I zoomed in, I could see that they were unfinished , IMO anyway  . Although the belts were cut out on a press, thats  normal, but  they  were un-bevelled , no burnishing,I could see fibres sticking out all over the place, (  my Mum spotted that  )   no edge dying,  2.8-3.0mm chrome tanned  leather thats not dyed all the way through on some colours ( you can clearly  see the blue/ grey along the edge) , and what belts did have patterns were done using a roller press, and twice the price of what I charge  for a well crafted belt using 4mm & 5mm  veg tan leathers  utilising skills I learnt from Al Stohlman  and other respected master craftsman and indeed  this web site   All he was doing was cutting them out and attaching a buckle…and that’s it.

And that deserves the title of ' craftsman ' ? 

I appreciate that when you’re making large volumes of belts it may not always be possible  to bevel , burnish etc.  each & every one. 

But forgive me if I sound like I'm just having a whinge or blowing smoke, but I also feel like I'm protecting the integrity of the craft. 

You hit the nail on the head. Thats pretty much what my Mum said .  

Thank you all so much for your input  

HS 

A couple of observations.  There is no need to feel threatened by competition.  Without competition maybe all leather belts would be rubbish.  In my business (not leatherwork) there is a trend towards the bottom lately.  Contractors demand cheaper and cheaper pricing on products and don't seem to appreciate the service aspect that they once did.  I believe in a value added approach.  I work hard to make sure that my customers are well satisfied and in order for that to happen there is an attendant cost.  That cost is added into the pricing.  Sometimes I will have a customer say, "Hey, I want to buy it from you but can you match so-and-so's price?"  The reason they are doing that is because they know if they buy from the other company they will get crappy service.  So in the end they want MY good service at the competition's crappy service price.  It doesn't add up.  So I generally stand my ground and defend my service and maybe give a little back, but never match the lower price.  Good service comes at a price.

So you have a choice.  Take the high ground and offer your customers finished goods, slicked edges, better leather, etc. or give them unfinished goods.  Maybe that is fine with them?  Maybe they don't understand the difference.  Then it is your job to educate them.  Make them a discriminating buyer.  Tell them what burnishing is and why it makes a difference.  Justify the difference.

If handled correctly, your competition will likely get wind that customers are demanding more finished product and will begin to raise the bar on their own quality.  That is how it is supposed to work.

There is always room for bottom feeders.  However, I've never wanted to be one.  Or buy from one either.

[Bob Blea]

Along the lines of what @Tugadude said above, there are a LOT of people out there that can make somewhat crappy leatherwork.  This is particularly true when you look at what you can find online.  It is very hard to complete with them at their level because someone will always make something that is equally mediocre for less money.  In my opinion the only real way to differentiate yourself from that crowd is to bring your quality above theirs and show that quality off.  Make your unique talents and skills what sets you apart from them.  That is the value you add. 

Many people can make a simple bifold wallet.  Some of them use nice quality leather and can put it together reasonably well.  Where I can rise above them is in the quality of the leather carving or stamping I can do, in a style that is fairly unique to me.  And yes I am going to charge more for that and it is easier for me to justify to a customer BECAUSE its not so easy for the mediocre competition to copy that.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

3 hours ago, Tugadude said:

A couple of observations.  There is no need to feel threatened by competition.  Without competition maybe all leather belts would be rubbish.  In my business (not leatherwork) there is a trend towards the bottom lately.  Contractors demand cheaper and cheaper pricing on products and don't seem to appreciate the service aspect that they once did.  I believe in a value added approach.  I work hard to make sure that my customers are well satisfied and in order for that to happen there is an attendant cost.  That cost is added into the pricing.  Sometimes I will have a customer say, "Hey, I want to buy it from you but can you match so-and-so's price?"  The reason they are doing that is because they know if they buy from the other company they will get crappy service.  So in the end they want MY good service at the competition's crappy service price.  It doesn't add up.  So I generally stand my ground and defend my service and maybe give a little back, but never match the lower price.  Good service comes at a price.

So you have a choice.  Take the high ground and offer your customers finished goods, slicked edges, better leather, etc. or give them unfinished goods.  Maybe that is fine with them?  Maybe they don't understand the difference.  Then it is your job to educate them.  Make them a discriminating buyer.  Tell them what burnishing is and why it makes a difference.  Justify the difference.

If handled correctly, your competition will likely get wind that customers are demanding more finished product and will begin to raise the bar on their own quality.  That is how it is supposed to work.

There is always room for bottom feeders.  However, I've never wanted to be one.  Or buy from one either.

Might be the best answer here yet!!  Truth, every word of it.

[Alexis1234]

To answer the question- I don't consider myself a "craftsmen"... I'm too new at this.  I consider leather working a serious hobby. I've had a few local  people  and others on social media approach me  wanting horse harness/tack  made and they want fancy  show work  at cheap, imported  prices. I absolutely refuse to cater to them. . I never started on this journey trying to make a buck, - it was on the bucket list. That was grown out of disgust, frustration and  the notion I can do it better. One lady I spoke to couldn't have cared less about hand stitching certain parts- she wanted bling, she wanted a certain "look".... at a certain price. When I tried explaining  why to her, it went over her head. I notice on social media people will clamor for cheap blinged out tack/harness while overlooking well made small shop goods.  I have no interest in a race to the bottom- my work can moulder on the  barn wall.

[Handstitched]

15 hours ago, Alexis1234 said:

I absolutely refuse to cater to them

Well done Alexis   

My Mother had a good saying that has stayed with me to this day  as she's had similar experiences , as she does handicrafts, knitting etc. and shes been sewing all her life, and she's also   seamstress by trade, " don't lower yourself to their standards, let them  come up to yours " , which is basically  the crux of all this .  ' Quality will out'  ( an old English expression)

I wasn't sure what response I would get from all this, but its all been positive, helpful  and supportive ,

thank you all  

HS 

[chrisash]

I am not trying to start a argument, just raise a point about hand sewn to machine sewn

Hand sewing tend in many cases to be pleasing work by people doing it, and can look great

Machine sewing can have perfect stitching all the time with a regular look, and commercially be a far cheaper process, with no negative points

Maybe that can explain why hand sewing can be a selling point in that you did the hard work, but what benefit does the buyer get that's extra, probably a higher price and a slightly less perfect stitch line.

I like hand stitching  and don't sell anything, but i can understand why customers may well prefer price. The Far East manufacture many leather goods, and its true the leather is often but not always poor, but the factory finish of a lot of the leather gear is well made, neat sewing and cheap labour and in this throw away society probably last the attention span of many people who cannot see or want to understand the difference between high class leather and hand made, and what is hand made? , hand made is what happens in leather factories but normally not by one person

[billybopp]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

I am not trying to start a argument, just raise a point about hand sewn to machine sewn

Hand sewing tend in many cases to be pleasing work by people doing it, and can look great

Machine sewing can have perfect stitching all the time with a regular look, and commercially be a far cheaper process, with no negative points

Maybe that can explain why hand sewing can be a selling point in that you did the hard work, but what benefit does the buyer get that's extra, probably a higher price and a slightly less perfect stitch line.

I like hand stitching  and don't sell anything, but i can understand why customers may well prefer price. The Far East manufacture many leather goods, and its true the leather is often but not always poor, but the factory finish of a lot of the leather gear is well made, neat sewing and cheap labour and in this throw away society probably last the attention span of many people who cannot see or want to understand the difference between high class leather and hand made, and what is hand made? , hand made is what happens in leather factories but normally not by one person

Most buyers probably cannot tell the difference between hand sewn and machine sewn, nor do they care!    BUT some people have a discerning eye and CAN tell at a glance how an item was sewn, and they are willing to pay for that difference, whether because they just like the look or because they believe that hand sewn is just better.

The same thing applies to clothing, for that matter.  Most of us are perfectly fine with off-the-rack suits, whether that be Wal-Mart at the low end or Hart Schaffner Marx or Armani at the high end.  Others want (or sometimes need) a tailored suit that is machine sewn and are perfectly fine with that.  The rare few can tell the difference between machine sewn and hand sewn tailoring, and are willing to pay for it, either because they want the HIGHEST quality or they want to impress others with that discerning eye to know the difference.

It's all in what the customer wants, and is willing to pay for.

- Bill

[JLSleather]

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

what benefit does the buyer get that's extra, probably a higher price and a slightly less perfect stitch line.

THERE ya go.  I dont care how much time you put in it.  I don't care if you sweat going to get it, or if you wrestled the cow to the ground yourself after raising it from a cub   WHY should I pay MORE if it's not BETTER?@!  WHAT IS THE POINT of "hand made" if the only difference is the STORY YOU TELL?@!

If I'm buying, say, a belt - then I want a GOOD, SOLID belt.  Good quality leather that stands the test of time, made attractive.  No need to match my handbag, cuz I aint got one (and don't hang out with those who do). HOW YOU GET IT that way is of no matter to me.  Sell me an OKAY-ISH belt (which I might take for the work around the house) but don't try to bump up the price with tales of chopping wood before the sun comes up or stories about how that belt comes with access to your video

Tell me why yours is better than somebody else's. HINT: NONE of the following has any place in your sale.

• I've been making belts for 20 years - or
• I have every leather tool known to exist, ever - or
• Your belt comes with a video about how I made it.

You wanna sell me a belt?  Then show me a GOOD belt at a FAIR price, and I'll probably take it.  I'll say it -- I make a great belt.  A guy asked me why the price, and I said i think that's a fair price.  'N' he says, that other guy sells em less.  'N' I said lets go talk to that guy, cuz if he kin sell ya a belt SAME QUALITY,  SAME TIME FRAME, LESS MONEY, then I MIGHT WANT ONE TOO!

But, here I am interfering with somebody who might have wanted to actually answer that guy's orginal question.. so I'll just stop there.

https://www.jlsleather.com/hand-made-well-made/

[Grumpymann]

Not going to very popular here but I do call myself a craftsman. In leather work what I do I think of as a craft, craft requires skills and skills anyone can learn. I tell people that all the time. What I am not is an artist... art is singular and a creator graced talent. Until I can do something no one else can in a way no one else dose I will use the skills I have learned (all the while trying to improve them and gain more.) and call it a craft. When you combine the skills of a craftsman and the talent of an artist you can call yourself an artisan. I grew up around a lot of tradesmen I would NEVER give myself a title like journeyman, apprentice or master craftsman. If I were a part of a guild or professional organization they can bestow on me what I had earned or what they feel I deserved. What I do is a craft ( in my case it's closer to macaroni on a paper plate) and l think to call it less than that is an insult not to me but the few people who spent their time trying to pound some skill in my fumbling sausage fingers.  

[mikesc]

An artisan is not a combination of artist and craftsman..Michelangelo was an artist, the artisans did what he designed..artisan is, if you will, a grade above craftsman..an artisan is rarely a creator ( when they are, they are an artist ), but is a highly skilled craftsman.
A sculptor is an artist..a stone mason is an artisan.

Artists are born
Craftsmen and artisans are made via practice , training, and frequently apprenticeships.
Today I was talking at length with a retired artisan in leather, at a fair ( a hat fair, yes they exist ) around 50kms from my house..he has worked for Hermes, LVMH, Longchamp etc..He is a Compagnon du Devoir..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Devoir
This is the highest grade of artisan in France, if not the world..some of them are creators, thus they are artists, most are highly skilled craftsmen..
He would not call himself an artist, he does not, he calls himself an artisan..

Edited July 21, 2019 by mikesc

[Grumpymann]

Quote

5 minutes ago, mikesc said:

An artisan is not a combination of artist and craftsman..Michelangelo was an artist, the artisans did what he designed..artisan is, if you will, a grade above craftsman..an artisan is rarely a creator ( when they are, they are an artist ), but is a highly skilled craftsman.
A sculptor is an artist..a stone mason is an artisan.

 

Ok. Good point. Words have definitive meanings. I retract my statement. 

 

[mikesc]

Ok , not getting on your case :)..just in light of the OPs initial question , I thought it worth making the definitions clear..
I read the thread when it began..later, when I've eaten, I might join in..if it can be of any help ..

[Grumpymann]

Quote

1 minute ago, mikesc said:

Ok , not getting on your case :)..just in light of the OPs initial question , I thought it worth making the definitions clear..
I read the thread when it began..later, when I've eaten, I might join in..if it can be of any help ..

 

Didn't think you were getting on my case, words have connotation and denotation (sp?).  And admitting when and where you are wrong is a part of being an adult. I was wrong about what an artisan is. We're cool. Thanks for straightening me out. Love to hear your take!

[cdthayer]

I was going to try to lighten things up by mentioning that a bunch of us have been sort of left out of this conversation about Craftsmen and those that are above by not including the fine work done by the wannabees, shade-tree-sewers, rif-raf stitchers, part-timers, half-fasters, here-hold my-beer-sewers, and village idiots, but I decided not to....

CD in Oklahoma

 

[chuck123wapati]

17 minutes ago, cdthayer said:

I was going to try to lighten things up by mentioning that a bunch of us have been sort of left out of this conversation about Craftsmen and those that are above by not including the fine work done by the wannabees, shade-tree-sewers, rif-raf stitchers, part-timers, half-fasters, here-hold my-beer-sewers, and village idiots, but I decided not to....

CD in Oklahoma

 

I'm a definite apprentice wannabee but have had some shade tree sewing instruction from a plumber. PS don't touch my beer! lol

[cdthayer]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

have had some shade tree sewing instruction from a plumber.

Isn't it amazing how much Plumbers know about sewing? Enough to boggle my mind!

I recently did a golf cart seat and backrest job for my local Plumber.  He's a younger guy than me and a great plumber that claims he doesn’t know anything about sewing.  When I found a shop towel stuffed into the seat cushion of his used golf cart that had been put in by a previous upholsterer to fill the void in one end of the seat where the driver usually sits and the foam had gotten worn away from use with a damaged seat cover, and told him about it, he asked if I'd put the shop towel back in before I stapled the new seat cover on.  I told him that of course I did, and he said "Good, it was there for a reason, and I don't want to buy new foam. Good job."  Last I heard, he was totally tickled with the new seat covers, but now his batteries had crapped out.  There goes $1000 for a new set of batteries....but since it's got totally awesome seat covers and backrest pads on it, I would assume that his wife will allow the purchase of new batteries.  I’ll keep you posted....

CD in Oklahoma

Edited July 21, 2019 by cdthayer

[bikermutt07]

5 hours ago, Grumpymann said:

Didn't think you were getting on my case, words have connotation and denotation (sp?).  And admitting when and where you are wrong is a part of being an adult. I was wrong about what an artisan is. We're cool. Thanks for straightening me out. Love to hear your take!

Don't feel like the lone ranger, I had the same assumption about artisans.

I was reading your post going, "yep, yep, that's on the money, yep."

Nothing wrong with a little humility from time to time.

[chrisash]

The Oxford dictionary description of a artisan, does not have quite the same meaning but rather watered down to modern times

artisan | Definition of artisan in English by Oxford Dictionaries

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/artisan

noun. 1A worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand. 'street markets where local artisans display handwoven textiles, painted ceramics, and leather goods'

[HaloJones]

So my 2p worth:

it’s a matter of perception, words (despite dictionaries) have fluidic meaning depending on what the speakers intent is.

I am a hobbyist leatherworker, I will never (in my opinion) be a master crafter as I don’t have the time to practice to get to that level and I am happy with that.

I see stuff forum members post on here & I am blown away; however, friends & colleagues have said my work is amazing; but this is because they do not know better or have not seen work from a leather professional.

Any one can give themselves a title, but the work will make or break their reputation, so I would suggest not to worry about others, be comfortable in what you call yourself & then let your work do the advertising.

 Slightly off-topic I can call myself a Chartered Surveyor MRICS ;)

 

[billybopp]

14 hours ago, cdthayer said:

I was going to try to lighten things up by mentioning that a bunch of us have been sort of left out of this conversation about Craftsmen and those that are above by not including the fine work done by the wannabees, shade-tree-sewers, rif-raf stitchers, part-timers, half-fasters, here-hold my-beer-sewers, and village idiots, but I decided not to....

CD in Oklahoma

 

LOL.  I love it!   And that's a great story about the golf cart too!   THANKS!  

3 hours ago, HaloJones said:

So my 2p worth:

it’s a matter of perception, words (despite dictionaries) have fluidic meaning depending on what the speakers intent is.

I am a hobbyist leatherworker, I will never (in my opinion) be a master crafter as I don’t have the time to practice to get to that level and I am happy with that.

I see stuff forum members post on here & I am blown away; however, friends & colleagues have said my work is amazing; but this is because they do not know better or have not seen work from a leather professional.

Any one can give themselves a title, but the work will make or break their reputation, so I would suggest not to worry about others, be comfortable in what you call yourself & then let your work do the advertising.

 Slightly off-topic I can call myself a Chartered Surveyor MRICS

 

Funny you should mention this ...I was just thinking before I saw your post, even ... Maybe you can call yourself a craftsman when somebody other than family or friends say something about your work and its fine craftsmanship.  

- Bill

[Handstitched]

G'Day,

If brick layers can  lay bricks,  why can't plumbers lay plums ?   

@fredk Just a little extension of what I said earlier in regards to the um....' competition' ,  marketing etc. , one particular market I used  to do, I did leather  craft demonstrations . I had a little bench , an old  fashioned converted bedside table with  a drawer, and space for stuff  , and a  spare marble slab, that I carried in an old laptop bag, carried all my tools,books  leather etc.  in a custom made  wood carry  case, all of which I still have.  They all fitted in the station wagon....just .  I did stamping, carving, tooling , hand stitching on sample sized pieces of leather ( all  of which I kept ) , everything except dying.   So if I wanted to, I could do leather craft demo's at markets   .   I thought of this just this arvo .  What a smarty bot bot I am eh?   

HS