dikman
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Everything posted by dikman
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That Colorado stuff is sort of what many on here have been saying to use - tallow, beeswax and some sort of oil to thin it out, in this case lanolin. If it is soft enough to spread then the bulk of it must be lanolin, as while tallow has a relatively low melting point beeswax does not and once you start adding it the mixture will thicken/stiffen very quickly. I see Sup just said the same thing. Even the Colorado add said "just a bit of beeswax", so it's mostly lanolin and tallow. In my experiments I started off with beeswax and found I had to add a LOT of oil to make it softer, as Sup has said.
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Sup, I came to the same conclusion the other day. The vast majority of commercial leather treatment products, judging by the MSDS of those I've looked at, use primarily petroleum-derived products, with smallish amounts of beeswax and/or lanolin and other things added. The Germans developed Ballistol (Ballistic Oil) during WW1 to use on military leather (boots etc) and continued to use it during WW2. As a product it's still in use today and guess what, it's almost pure mineral oil, with just a few minor things added primarily to make it smell nice! It seems to me that a mixture of beeswax and mineral oil should solve deboardp's problems - no animal smell and no animal matter used so pure vegan, pure mineral oil can be ingested so safe for people and the oil doesn't go off so should last indefinitely (or at least a very long time). Ticks all the boxes.
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dboardp, you won't use tallow because of the "animal" smell but you're happy to use lanolin? Lanolin smells a lot stronger than my (sheep) tallow. I also have some lanolin grease and again, it smells very strong compared to my tallow. I also have a can of spray lube that is lanolin-based and anything I spray it on smells like sheep!
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Sup, found on the 'net - Beef tallow has a melting point 35-40 deg. C. Mutton tallow has a melting point 40-45 deg. C. (I think my sheep tallow might be higher as it doesn't soften over summer). D-limonene might be a solvent, but does it actually dissolve beeswax? People who have lubricated bullets with a beeswax concoction have asked about removing it and the answer has always been to melt the lead and re-cast the bullets. Beeswax is extremely difficult to remove once applied, not much will touch it. And ScottWolf is right, D-limonene is expensive, particularly here in Australia. So I don't think I'll bother with it.
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Sup, ScottWolf has used it in his recipes so I'm assuming it's not detrimental to leather, BUT as you say it is a fairly strong solvent (used as a paintstripper!!) so I guess one would have to be careful about how much is added to the mix. Burkhardt, it is difficult to find information about using vegetable oils in leather conditioners but when I searched for info on pork fat and macadamia oil it all related to using them in cooking. All mentioned about shelf life (1 - 2 years) and deteriorating after that, even when kept refrigerated, in other words turning rancid. Anything that can't be stored indefinitely at room temperature has to be considered suspect for long-term use on leather. I haven't looked at every vegetable oil but those I have all mention having a finite storage life. Maybe we need a post (sticky?) of a simple list of stuff that is known to be harmless when used on leather?
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Wow!
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Thanks for an excellent summary, ScottWolf, something that even I can understand. Looks like it could be a great "softening" agent for making paste wax.
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I guess purplefox was having a bad day when he made his original comments. Happens to all of us. Frodo, airbrushes aren't intended to do large areas, something I discovered too, it is very difficult to get uniform coverage. You need to go up in size and get a small spraygun to do that, you can find them on ebay/Aliexpress. Interesting heritage you have there, perhaps we should call you Frodo the Black.
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The tallow has a lower melting point than beeswax so mixing it in should help to soften the wax. As to whether it's needed I guess that's up to the person making the conditioner. Making tallow itself is another separate process, of course, which is probably why you won't find it in commercial conditioners, they're all about making a product that will work but is as cheap to make as possible. Looking at the MSDS for them generally shows beeswax, mineral oil and a few other man-made products in very small percentages. Olive oil mixed with beeswax makes a great soft paste, I made some years ago and it hasn't gone off yet.
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I forgot to mention that in my early experiments at making waxes a chap who posted a long explanation about his experiments said he used pure gum turpentine (so completely natural) as a thinning agent to make the beeswax/carnauba wax softer to apply, so I made a batch using it. It worked ok but after a year or two in the tin a black tar-like deposit started forming on the tin. The wax didn't "go off" or anything and was still quite useable but I don't think I would apply it to leather, just in case, it seems to work fine on wood/metal, however. Just a bit more info to add.
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Sup, my sheep tallow doesn't go particularly soft in hot weather (we occasionally reach 40*C plus, more often it's in the high 30's) it has quite a high melting point, but lanolin, of course, does soften significantly. deboardp, I don't think you can go far wrong using combinations of beeswax, lanolin, nfo and maybe a decent tallow, they're all tried and proven for using on leather. The tricky part with using beeswax is finding something to thin it down sufficiently to make a soft paste (and without going rancid ). You'll find that most of the commercial products use mineral oil as the thinning agent primarily, I suspect, because it's cheap and is stable.
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I had a 211G for a while and if I remember correctly the design of the handwheel meant it wasn't easy to replace with a pulley as there was a bearing as part of the handwheel assembly, when the handwheel is removed the shaft doesn't have any support at the end. The more common method is to fit the bearing inside the machine body to support the shaft.
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That whip looks great. They look like a lot of work to make though.
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Macadamia oil - all the references I've found about it refer to using it in cooking (apparently very good for you and a high burning point) BUT they also say to keep it refrigerated and mention it eventually turning rancid, so it may not be what you're looking for. I have a couple of Macadamia trees and thought it might be worth extracting the oil but it looks like a lot of work so I don't think I'll bother (the only way I can crack the nuts is in a metal-working vise so it's a very labour-intensive and tedious job, and I keep eating them as I crack them!). So far the only animal fats that I'm aware of that store well and don't turn rancid are beef and sheep fat, rendered to tallow (and maybe deer fat?). These have been around for a very long time, and along with beeswax are tried and proven for treating leather. Just something to think about.
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You were talking about the use of pork fat in the past to treat leather and it would have been stored at room temperature so to me that is the criteria to use for determining its suitability - what is its shelf life? If it can be stored indefinitely at room temperature then adding it to leather shouldn't cause any problems. However, everything I have read so far about rendered pork fat says it has a limited shelf life but fred's experience suggests otherwise (albeit fred's is in the fridge, not at room temperature). By asking you to do it, why not? You have the pork fat so your experience with it would provide all of us with valuable first-hand information, no different to what others do on here when trying something out. As to whether "stuffed leather" has air in it, I have no idea as it seems pretty irrelevant to me. I don't understand why you appear to be attacking me over this, if you want to use pork fat on your leather that's your business it doesn't bother me, I'm merely pointing out that what I've read so far about rendered pork fat gives me cause for concern about using it to treat leather.
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I would consider that a restoration project machine, maybe $100 for someone who knows what they're doing!
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A 441 machine gives you the ability to sew some pretty heavy stuff if needed but my suggestion would be to try and pickup a used upholstery-class machine as well, these generally have 3/8"/10mm clearance under the feet, run #69 thread and are great general-purpose machines for lighter work. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a used one and if it needs a servo fitted that's no big deal. The chances of finding a used 441 in Australia, however, are pretty slim!
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So far everything I've read about rendering pork fat to make lard has referred to a shelf life of maybe a year in a fridge but it eventually goes rancid even in the fridge. Outside the fridge it will likely have a shorter lifespan. As you already have some of this pork leaf fat might I suggest you render it down and store it at room temperature to see how long it lasts? It may be a long term experiment but I'm sure quite a few on here would be interested in the results. I'll stick with my sheep tallow, I know it's stable at a wide range of room temperatures, has a fairly high melting point (significantly higher than pork fat) and stores indefinitely without turning rancid.
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Don't sweat the mistakes, it's all part of the learning curve (I'm sure you made quite a few when you started knifemaking). Nice knife, by the way.
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Pretty good set up you've got there for it Dwight.
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A lot has been written on here about using a 441 for sewing lighter stuff (within reason). Two members on here, RockyAussie and Patrick, make a narrow feed-dog and needle plate which will allow the big machines to comfortably sew the sort of gear you're talking about with #138 thread. They could use #69 thread, the limiting factor being finding suitable needles (not common in Australia). RockyAussie is located in Rockhampton Qld, you can contact him via the forum. I fitted RockyAussie's narrow plate set on my 4500 and can't see any reason to take it off as I can use #138 to #377 with it. These big machines, by the way, are not set up to sew as fast as, say, a typical upholstery-class machine, they are designed to sew very heavy thick leather where slower speed gives greater control.
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"Once rendered it keeps basically forever in the freezer and for months in the fridge." That suggests that it has a limited lifespan and is not stable indefinitely at room temperature , not what you want to use on leather.
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To my thinking if it's called tallow then that means it has been rendered down, if they call it "refined" then who knows what that means? Personally, I would render that pork fat before I'd consider using it on leather, I wouldn't use any animal fat unless it was rendered to make tallow.
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Kangaroo has the advantage that it is naturally very thin compared to most other widely used leathers and is very strong for its weight.
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Looks like a pretty generic airbrush, Frodo, no reason it shouldn't work ok for what you want. The compressor will be the limiting factor, those little ones are pretty basic, the biggest potential issues are they tend to pulse the air out (no tank) and are difficult to regulate the air pressure. As kgg suggested a bigger compressor would be better, and with a tank even better still. I've noticed they often pop up on ebay/facebook marketplace, you might find one pretty cheap from someone who used it for modelmaking.