Search the Community

My all in one guide to Vinegaroon Hey everyone. I’ve been lurking around these forums for a while now and haven’t posted much, so I thought I’d finally make a contribution. I’m going to University for a Chemistry degree, and surprisingly some of the things I’ve been learning in my labs are actually applicable to my leatherwork! I thought I'd write up some of my observations and experiments with vinegarroon, to try and help shed some light on what is actually going on in the reaction. Please, read through and share any knowledge you have working with this stuff! (I know this is a lot. I was bored just typing it. You can skip to the bottom if you don't have time to read it all) Background Vinegaroon, or ‘roon, is a homemade black ‘dye’ that has been used by leatherworkers for centuries. It is also used by woodworkers to ‘ebonize’ wood, and was used since the 5th century as ink, called ‘iron gall ink’. It is not actually a dye, but a reaction between ferric acetate and the tannins that naturally occur in leather and wood. Tannins content varies between hardwoods and softwoods, and can be boosted by brewing a strong black tea and wiping it on the wood. I assume that this is also true of leathers. I have a few junky tandy's sides that are pale in appearance, and they seem to be low on tannins because roon has less of an effect on them. ‘Roon is used by many leather and wood workers but understood by few. It can be very useful alternative to commercial black dye in areas where dye is unavailable, too costly, or undesired because of environmental reasons. Also, because it is fundamentally different than other dyes, it will not bleed or crock (rub off) onto fabric. Pros: -easy to make with household materials -available in places where dye is not, or shipping is too expensive -nearly free -does not bleed or crock like other black dyes Cons: -often does not make a deep enough black colour without lots of neatsfoot oil added afterwards -can make your product smell like vinegar -acidic nature can cause issues with metal hardware in contact with the leather, might also degrade then leather after long periods of time Typical Recipe: (not recommended by me) Put some old rusty nails into a jar of vinegar and let it sit for a week, or a month. Filter it through cheesecloth and wipe it on your leather. This produces a nasty, smelly mixture of a whole bunch of iron complexes and compounds. The active ingredient, iron acetate, is in there, but along with a whole bunch of other junk you don’t need. It doesn’t have to be this way. With some chemistry and a little bit of research into the mechanism here, I’ve made a crystal clear, mostly odourless solution that only takes half a day to make. How I did it: I bought fine steel wool from the dollar store, which came in small bats. Any steel or iron will do, but fine steel wool has the greatest surface area so it will react the fastest. Metal shavings/powder would also work, but I’d think they would just clump on the bottom of the jar and prevent the vinegar from reaching the bottom layers. I washed one bat in soapy water to remove any oils left over from manufacturing. Some people have used acetone, which would work well, but seems a bit over the top when soap is cheaper. I pulled it apart and placed it in a beaker of regular vinegar, so that all the wool was submerged. You don’t need very much steel wool at all, even a quarter of the amount I used would be enough. The amount of metal actually being dissolved is in the order of milligrams or even micrograms. You probably shouldn’t keep a lid on it, because you are producing gas in the reaction. After a few hours, small bubbles form on the steel wool, causing it to rise to the top of the solution. I would mix it gently to dislodge the bubbles and keep it submerged. Every few hours I would use an eye dropper (so that I didn’t have to pour it out) to take a bit of the solution and test it on some leather. The darkening effect increased slowly over time until full strength was reached after about 12 hours. Still, I left the wool in there for 2 days to see if it got any stronger. Next time I won’t leave it in so long. After 2 days, I removed the wool. Since none of the wool was ever exposed to the air above, there was no rust in the beaker and I was left with a nice clear solution that didn’t smell much worse than straight vinegar. This is my vinegaroon solution. It turns leather black, is fairly stable, and is still acidic. The final product: a clear, nearly odourless solution of vinegaroon. Neutralization (optional): Next, I tried to neutralize the solution with baking soda to see if that changed the effectiveness of it at all. I took a small test tube of the ‘roon solution and put a spoon tip of baking soda in it. Obviously this will make it fizz up like your kid’s science fair volcanoe project, so I added it slowly. I didn’t have any pH paper to test the acidity so what I did was add an excess of baking soda (seen on the bottom of the tube), and then re-added the acidic ‘roon solution dropwise until there was no excess left. These images show the neutralization process, if pH paper is unavailable. A base (sodium bicarbonate/baking soda) is added in excess, which is seen in the bottom of the test tube by the red arrow. Then, the acidic vinegaroon solution is re-added slowly until this excess base disappears. The resulting solution is assumed to be neutral. This neutralized roon solution has the exact same reaction with the leather as the acidic solution. However, it was not as stable. After a hours sitting or a few minutes shaking, the solution turned into a cloudy grey-orange sludge. This is because the oxygen in the air oxidized the Fe2+ ions into Fe3+ ions, which are not soluble and have a rusty colour. Neutralized roon is good for immediate use, but turns nasty after a while What is happening? (skip this section if you don’t like chemistry) The iron is dissolved by the acetic acid and becomes a free-floating iron ion, in the +2 oxidation state, called Fe2+ or Iron(II). Hydrogen gas is produced in the dissolution process but in such small amounts that there is nothing to worry about. This ion is colourless and soluble in water, which is what we want. Furthermore, when this ion is in an acidic solution, like vinegar, it is relatively stable. Some of the ions complex with the acetate, which further increases its stability. When this mixture is applied to the leather, the iron ions interact with the tannins to form an iron-tannin complex, which is black. Oxygen messes with this system. Obviously there is oxygen in the atmosphere and dissolved in your solution, and this can oxidize the iron ions – it will take them from the 2+ state to the 3+ state. Fe3+ or iron(III) is NOT what we want, because it is orange and gross and not soluble in water. If this forms, it creates an orange/brown powdery solid that sinks to the bottom of the jar. To prevent the oxidation of the iron in solution, we need to keep the pH LOW and keep the oxygen out of the system as much as possible – by not pouring or shaking the solution. Now, the acidity of the solution is what keeps it stable – I’m assuming that you could store vinegaroon for a few weeks or months if you kept a lid on it. But the acidity is also what makes it dangerous for using with metal hardware. So what I’ve done is neutralized the solution with baking soda, just before applying it to the leather. The neutralized solution is just as effective, but noticeably less stable. The nice clear solution will turn orange overnight if untouched, or in seconds if shaken. So there you have it. Here’s a summary of what you SHOULD do: -keep the oxygen out of the system. Oxygen is your worst enemy, and turns this pure, clear solution of iron acetate into a sludgy, brown, stanky mess. -keep the solution acidic until you need to use it, then neutralize it if you need to before applying -use steel wool, as it has way more surface area than the same mass of solid iron And what you SHOULDN’T do: -don’t use rusty metal. It wouldn’t make a huge difference, it would just be introducing iron(III) into the solution which you don’t want. -don’t stir vigorously or pour the solution if possible -don’t use lots of metal, cause you only needs a little -don’t wait for a week, cause full strength is reached in less than a day -don’t put a lid on it until you’ve removed the iron, cause you’re building up gas in that jar -don’t worry about anything exploding either, there’s not that much gas -don’t filter it! Pouring it would introduce too much oxygen into the system. If you have stuff that you need to remove, it would be better to suck the ‘roon out with a turkey baster or something. What you could do differently than me: -using stronger vinegar, ie pickling vinegar, would speed up the reaction slightly and probably produce better results, since the pH would stay lower. Normal vinegar, however, is fine for most uses. -If you want to ensure that you have neutralized the solution, or gain a greater insight into the reaction process, pH paper would be very useful. -The solution could be neutralized with other bases, I only used baking soda because it was within an arms reach of the vinegar. Using sodium hydroxide, for example, wouldn’t cause it to bubble so much. -The solution can also be heated to speed the reaction, although I personally wouldn’t bother -Perhaps the best thing you could do is to calculate just how much iron will react with the vinegar and use slightly less than that amount of steel, to ensure that you have vinegar in excess. This will keep the pH from rising as vinegar is consumed by the reaction. This could be calculated stoichiometrically, or possibly by weighing accurately the mass of steel wool before and after to find out how much was consumed. I would assume that it wouldn’t be very much at all. Resources: The main reason why I found it so hard to find information on this reaction is because I initially had no idea what to search for. “vinegaroon” only can up with a few result, and most of them were not scientific explanations. I soon found out that it is more commonly used for “ebonizing wood” and that yielded a few more results. Finally I came across some scientific papers for Iron-acetate and iron-tannin complexes. Here are links to most of the pages I found helpful in my search: http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/35351/iron-chemistry-acetates-for-ebonizing-wood http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/5027/how-does-the-mordant-ferric-acetate-interact-with-tannins-when-ebonizing-wood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink https://pubs.usgs.gov/wsp/1459d/report.pdf Thanks a lot for reading that, if you made it all the way through! Ask me any questions or share your experiences with roon below!

I made a set of saddle bags but seemed to have misplaced the horse the bag itself is a Herman oak split back strap is 9oz veg tan flap and straps are 6oz veg tan saddle tan antique with neutral resolene as a resist. And tan kote finish front panel of the Bag is 2” smaller than the back giving the bag an “offset” look

Hello all! I'm making a costral/canteen for my wife and I'm looking at sealing it with melted beeswax (5oz veg tan) after wet-forming. Will acrylic paint adhere to waxed veg tan after it's sealed? I use Angelus leather paint. Cheers in advance Nathan Carlson Midgard Workshop

Hello. This is going to be a matter of opinion as there are so many options here. So I'm making a bunch of wallets for everyone for Xmas and I'm curious as to what type of finish I should use or rather what you all would use for a wallet. I'll give some background. The leather I'm using is a veg tan Korba buffalo calf from buckleguy. I'm getting the leather pre dyed (black and another color). Likely I'll burnish the edges with tokonole and beeswax. I guess I'm looking for a decent sheen, the more "luxurious" the better I guess (whatever "luxurious" means to you). What do you guys like to use? What oils do you guys like? Neatsfoot? Mink? So my plan is to use an oil like mink or neatsfoot then finish with tan kote unless someone has a better idea. I think that will be the look and feel that I'm going for. If anyone has any ideas that will help or even just some helpful info on what Im planning to use that would be great. Or even if you have a better idea all together. I'm all ears. Thank you for your time

Hi all! Just wanted to share this laptop bag I just finished. Went with an all natural veg tan and the patina is going to be amazing after some time. I used a 6/7 for the body and flap, 5/6 for the gusset and front and back panels. The inner pockets will hold a 16" MacBook and other essentials. I went with a double layer strap of 5/6 glued and stitched together. My favorite part is the unique brand on the back, I love using brands if I can. Thanks for looking!

Hi: Some of the hides we get that are veg tan come in a bit opaque when new. When we want to clean up the image we have been hand buffing with canvas, but this takes a long time. Was wondering if anyone else had found a way to shorten this process? Thank you Chuck

I have some experience with veg tan but I’ve only ever connected pieces with rivets and buckles and so on. Very little stitching, no gluing. Now, I’m making a quiver. I’m buying new tools and doing a lot of research, as it’ll be my first times for carving, stitching, and gluing. I have some questions and concerns - I’m not working from an existing pattern. I’m thinking about closing the quiver’s long edge with a baseball stitch. The straps will be connected to that edge with overlays, and help reinforce the seam. Concerns: I’m designing the pattern with paper to start, and the construction paper warps into a teardrop shape without reinforcement at the seam. I worry I will have some weakness in the same area with 8 oz veg tan? Would it be more reasonable to use a butt stitch, even though I don’t prefer it aesthetically? Regardless of the stitch, should I, or would it be advisable to, contact cement (or otherwise glue) the butt edges of the leather together before stitching? Thanks for any tips, first time posting but I've been lurking for a long time.

J&FJ Baker & Co Oak Bark and Veg Tan equestrian leathers are now available in the US! Carmine Jack Leather has Bakers traditional oak bark bridle, harness, and stirrup leathers in a number of different colors. We also have some of their veg tan offerings including their panel hides and bag hides (double back hides averaging (34sqft) as well as their corrected grain veg tan harness leathers which are a big hit in Japan. We have straps available for sale on our website but working on getting everything else up there. The backs, butts, and whole hides we offer are all done through direct invoicing so please send us a message to get an order started.

Post American (USA) veg tan & latigo suppliers here

I'm new to leather crafting and using a blog. If this should be posted elsewhere please advise. I tried running a search with no luck. I'm making leather greaves of veg tan cow hide. Stencils and cuts are done, tooling to be done soon. As it is relatively flat I will be wet forming it to fit around my leg so I wondered if I should: dye it first, then wet form? wet form, then dye? (I think this might be the way to go) or other suggestions? I'm using kelly green fiebings for the majority of it but I have a stag in the middle I would like to keep a lighter color maybe use the color block stuff and some hi light for the tooling recesses? Attached is the greave to be worked on and bracers I did that it will be matching. Thanks for any input!

Hi: Looking for a good source of colored true vegetable tanned leather and wondered if some on here would have some info. Thank You Chuck

First of all, I'm new to leather living in Egypt and want to know more about tanning because the gossip here is sky high and everybody claims he's the best but when it comes to picking veg tan leather people get crazy fast I have asked the biggest tannery here and they claimed that they do Vegetable tanning process within a day or so using a drum Since am new to this area so I can't decide is that true or just a scam Also, I'm suffering dealing with too supple leather even my edge beveler ( Not the best quality ) can go as the leather starts to get stretchy and wrinkly so if anyone can help me out i will appreciate it so much Adding to this, when I asked one of the workers in the tanneries he said that they press the leather in the finishing process and he correlated that it has to do with the firmness of the leather in the outcome .. Is that true ? Thanks in Advance

Hi all! New here - as I suppose you can tell from my account. I am working on a piece using Wickett and Craig Chestnut Skirting Leather. From W&C I seem to have, from what I can tell, an oil from the tanning process on the flesh side of the leather I tried very light scrapping to avoid any damage to the skin side. I thought perhaps some Acetone, but thought this may hurt the finish to the skin side. Thought I might get some help from those much more experienced than I am. I would appreciate any feedback. Thank you!

I’ve been making some stirrup style dice bags recently which require me to sew chrome tanned garment leather or suede to the veg tan strip in the middle. I’ve been using diamond chisels to make my holes in the veg tan, but it doesn’t work well on the softer leathers so I’ve been saddle stitching them together with glover’s needles. I go through the diamond chiseled hole of the veg tan and use the sharp glover’s point to get through the suede etc. Is there a better or easier way to do this? Sewing machine is not an option. Thanks!

Beginner wants to know where to buy colored and thin veg tan leather. I know Rocky Mountain but seems a little expensive. I tried Springfield but I think they only have original colored tooling sides. Just wonder if you guys know any other places selling dyed veg tan except RM. If not, I will go for Rocky Mountain.

I am embarking on a project making bench cushions for a restaurant. I have been doing some research on sealing veg tan leather, and it seems that Resolene would be the best choice for sealing leather that will inevitably be spilled on and incur considerable wear. (This video convinced me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyTg_hfpNUM). My second question concerns upkeep: Is there a regimen I should implement every 6 months or so to re-seal or to condition the leather? Or should I leave it to the natural oils from all the skin contact it will recieve over time? Thank you for any advice you have!

Hi guys! I'm new to the forum and excited to be here. I've been trying to fix this for 2 days now. I am stitching felt onto 7 oz veg tan. I can get a beautiful straight stitch. For the backstitch only, I get the top thread looping at the bottom. Attached are images of what I mean, as well as an image of the machine I'm using (Highlead/Artisan 2698-1). I've tried adjusting the tension, changing the needle and different thread thicknesses. I thread the needle with the foot up. I've tested it about 100 times and if I wanted to do this, I'm now confident I could do it every time. Its the same result with every thread combination. But I don't want to do it this way, so any help would be appreciated.

Luxury leather remnants 2-3 oz. & 5-7 oz. Mixed hides, tanning, printing, and finishes Good condition 15 – 45 $ + shipping for individual hides bulk order discount of 350$ + shipping for all great for small projects email preferred Rachael@heavyleathernyc.com Attn.: Rachael Subject: Luxury Leather Remnants

I'm working on a pair of forearm crutches that will be getting leather on the arm cuffs and handles. I'm seriously looking at Springfield Leather's Sof-Tan milled veg tan. I've never worked with veg tan or milled veg tan before but the idea that the milled veg tan might be softer and more flexible appeals to me. Also, because of the intended use I don't want to use a dyed product. That's one of the reasons I'm looking at veg tan leather. I don't want the dyes possibly rubbing off on the client's clothes. Has anyone here worked with Springfield's Sof-Tan leathers and how is it to work with? I can't seem to get their site to come up right now or I would post a link. Thanks, Rodney

Making a wallet using Natural veg tan; and before i start, i wondered what i can use to protect the leather, so the natural light colour is not marked but still remains very soft Don't these small thing,s you never thought of when you started, add up, a set of basic tools you budget for, but after that it seems spend , spend, spend for all these little things like, a small bottle of dye, some thinner thread, a bit of this or that. Not sure if its a leather hobby, or a spending hobby

Any good and or unique ideas as to what I can do with it? They're decent sized pieces, probably 5x8" on average. Thought I was getting some good scrap for practice carving but I screwed that up for myself

I am inundated with strap scraps that need a new home. Prefer to sell by the giant box full, weighing about 40-60 pounds per box. Come and see it all and make an offer for a truckload! Located in Aurora, CO. Herman Oak golden tan bridle, 8/10 oz veg tan, and 9/11 oz. struck through Black Latigo from Chahin. Most are mixed boxes, with both colors. Most leather is cut and edged, from 3/8" to 1" wide. Also plenty of random bits and trimmings from the edges of the sides. Asking $1.50 per pound, or $40 per big box. A few boxes full of ONLY the bridle leather cut to 9/16" width. This is beautiful stuff, it's just a little too short for the products we make with it. Asking $2.00 per pound, or $60 per box. Perfect for key fobs, bracelets, small projects, 4-H, scouts, crafts, etc. Remnant from dog leash/collar business (IE: nothing long enough or strong enough if this is what you want to make, because we've used what we can for this purpose). I have a continuous supply of this stuff. Feel free to reply here, but for faster reply, just give us a call. Call or text Brian three-o-three 653-184FIVE

I am making a harness/blouse and I have a 1/4" strip of leather between two grooves as a border on the pieces. I wish to retain the pale look of the veg tan on this strip and dye the rest to a dark brown. What is the best way of doing this. If I need to post a picture or two to clarify please just ask.

Looking to make my first purchase of Dye to use on Veg Tan cowhide, have looked at old posts but there seems to be two opposite views on what to use Spirt v Water based Perhaps someone can explain the main difference between the two if any, and if there are any other good consistent makes available in the UK. Resolene, seems well spoken of for the final coat, would that be a good choice for me to start with or any other outstanding finishes